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I guess my question was more or less am I correct in feeling gaslighted by this text?You don't say what the question was ?
This book sounds like it belongs in the trash quite frankly.
There's always been a side to new age ideas that's incredibly judgemental and right wing and the reason for that is they place absolutely everything upon the individual without taking social conditions into account. So woweee we all create our own destiny and that little girl being sold for sex well she 'created' that did she ? It can be simplistic beyond belief.
They, I mean some new age writers, have woefully misappropriated the concept of karma which is beyond human knowledge, not for them to decide why what happened to who, they don't know. There's also much garbage in some Yi books about the 'ego'. The ego is actually the self we use to interface between our unconscious and the outer world. Without egos we wouldn't be people.
I think the 20 shows what you are doing, looking, seeing, reflecting upon why this book is so offensive to you.
And of course we do to a degree create our own reality, it's not that there's no truth in that but there's so much we don't know about why people have the lives they have it is an act of the crassest ignorance to say so smugly that disease and disability are die to a 'wrong stance to the universe'.
I think one has to be very careful in how these kinds of ideas are verbalised because they can be both simplistic and brutal. And the problem is again it is not as if there were no truth at all to making connections to behaviour and disease, I posted a video in open space about that and I think the speaker put over his thoughts most sensitively because he's intelligent and his work is to help people. I do not think the author of your book is very intelligent quite frankly and when new age ideas get jumbled up with a bit of eastern mysticism, a bit of Buddhism, a bit of a hotch potch that the writer doesn't have the mental capacity to discern which from what...you get books like this.
Thanks so much for the feedback, and you’re very perceptive to notice that I’m ruminating endlessly rather than simply putting it aside. I do in fact have a history of doing this kind of thing to my own detriment (for example if a friend or family member has pushed some political or religious viewpoint which I find obnoxious, I will argue back and forth via email or phone for days, making myself extremely ill, whereas other people would simply have cut further contact as soon as things got disrespectful).Foxx, it is interesting to me why you are ruminating so much over this book? I'd say if you find that much objectionable or un-useful about it that you should just set it aside (or take more drastic steps if you want).
From what you wrote above, the author seems to be going very far afield from what the Yi is saying. I want my Yi to be the Yi, not what someone else thinks it should be. (I can take a bit of 'slant' but I can pretty quickly pick up on when this is not working for me.)
On the other hand, if you find this kind of rumination useful or insightful, who am I to say otherwise? But it makes me wonder, is there another underlying or deeper motivation or reason for your rumination? Perhapas that you're trying to understand just what it is you find objectionable, which it seems you've hit upon. (Just wondering.)
All that said, there are sooo many Yi versions and interpretations out there, and quite a few are quite far-afield than what I think the Yi is trying to convey to us.
And it seems to that quite a lot of them are trying to do our thinking and our image-making for us (and quite a few leave out the imagery altogther, which is just wrong!); and those are short-cuts I just don't think we should take - however much a version might even agree with our own world view.
After all - and I've said this in a number of recent threads - its not the Yi's job to fit our world views, or our political views (good god no!), or spiritual views, or psycological views of things or of how the world works. It is there to convey it's own text and imagery, which we can then interpret in our own way.
Best, D.
I wrote a longer response to your post, but regarding just this 'gaslighting' issue (I have never heard of this term before now, and I just looked up it's interesting origin)I guess my question was more or less am I correct in feeling gaslighted by this text?
I wrote a longer response to your post, but regarding just this 'gaslighting' issue (I have never heard of this term before now, and I just looked up it's interesting origin)
... I think that the Yi oftens challenge our approach or ways of thinking - and just as often it also point to more simple and obvious answers - but all that is quite different than being manipulated by someone.
For example, a few years ago the Yi 'advised' me (as I understood it) to have a more open and accepting attitude towards someone at work, even when I felt they might be criticising me (and quite frankly, I was being pretty hard and stubborn towards them!). This was certainly a challenge to my usual way of approaching and dealing with this person, but it never felt like a manipulation or even a criticism of myself or this other person, it was more like .... 'hmmm, you might try approaching this situation ... this (other) way (and see what happens).'
But it wasn't any new-agey, 'it's all in your mind' or 'you make your own reality' or 'you need to change your relationship with the cosmos' or whatever other layers of BS people put on the Yi. And you know what, the advice worked! - but without all these other added, unncessary layers.
But the bigger issue here is that you feel - probably rightfully so - that you are being 'gaslighted' but somone's commentary, not challenged by the Yi's response. And those are very, very different things.
And again, if it doesn't work for you, set it, or toss it, aside, and view it as a lesson of sorting the real from the contrived, or as the Yi says, the warp from the waft.
Best, D.
What can I say? Welcome to the monkey house!Thanks so much for the feedback, and you’re very perceptive to notice that I’m ruminating endlessly rather than simply putting it aside. I do in fact have a history of doing this kind of thing to my own detriment ....
regarding just this 'gaslighting' issue (I have never heard of this term before now, and I just looked up it's interesting origin)
Most definately! I have a friend whose son is dating another man. This boyfriend often goes on about people 'creating their own realities,' even including victims of war or oppression and so forth. But what is most interesting - and telling! - is that this person is severely depressed, lives almost like a shut-in, and often misses family holidays and social functions because of this. I'm not saying everyone is like this, but people often don't walk their talk.However as you note it’s another thing altogether to be forced to swallow bad new age mantras which jars the soul ....
Yes, that’s a very telling illustration and I’ve know someone who is very similar: talks all about creating reality and perfect timing yet drinks and is depressed. They are nonbelievers willing themselves to believe.Most definately! I have a friend whose son is dating another man. This boyfriend often goes on about people 'creating their own realities,' even including victims of war or oppression and so forth. But what is most interesting - and telling! - is that this person is severely depressed, lives almost like a shut-in, and often misses family holidays and social functions because of this. I'm not saying everyone is like this, but people often don't walk their talk.
But back to the book... you lilely know what to do. D.
Yes, it’s the technique and modus operandi of those who are manipulative and devious in their relating. Small wonder that Trump should use gaslighting as one of his tricks.If you look closely at the orange-skinned-man and his closest allies, you'll see that they are exactly gaslighting. Everything they are accused of, they immediately accuse their critics of doing that very same thing, it's absolute deflection, dizzying fast talk.
1. The ego is always false. I believe an incorrect ego is false, but a generous and liberal and open ego is an asset. It is healthy to have a sense of self and boundaries, to have genuine desires and aspirations.
5. We will always have everything we need. The child beaten to death by parents, the freezing homeless, the wrongly convicted tortured in prison. Yep.
Thank you for these enlightening words and parables which I can really appreciate.It's really late for me and I'm tired but I did have some thoughts on your comments I wanted to share!
The ego is a house of cards just like your beliefs, "genuine" desires, aspirations, and sense of self. It wouldn't take much to bowl those over. What is an "incorrect" ego? The definitions of ego that I am familiar with are related to the experience as a separate being rather than your oneness with all things. You're the drop in the ocean but you don't Know (internal resonance rather than intellectual) you're also the ocean sort of thing. The drop cannot be disconnected from the ocean no matter what it understands, believes, or values. This is the case with all things. So the ego is always false, because it's existence is based on a separateness that doesn't actually exist. The consciousness/life/force that animates you and all things does so without your ego. You can experience that yourself through meditation or any activity that puts you in that flow state.
--------
Two parables came to mind reading your questions that also feel how I experience hex 20, which is something like Vipassana meditation which is observation-based and about self-exploration. I thought it might be nice to share them in the context of 20. The first is from David Foster Wallace's commencement address:
There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, “Morning, boys. How’s the water?” And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, “What the hell is water?”
The point of the fish story is merely that the most obvious, important realities are often the ones that are hardest to see and talk about....The fact is that in the day to day trenches of adult existence, banal platitudes can have a life or death importance.
The capital-T Truth is about life BEFORE death. It is about the real value of a real education, which has almost nothing to do with knowledge, and everything to do with simple awareness; awareness of what is so real and essential, so hidden in plain sight all around us, all the time, that we have to keep reminding ourselves over and over:
This is water.
This is water.
The other is the parable of the Chinese farmer.
Once there was a Chinese farmer who worked his poor farm together with his son and their horse. When the horse ran off one day, neighbors came to say, “How unfortunate for you!” The farmer replied, “Maybe yes, maybe no.”When the horse returned, followed by a herd of wild horses, the neighbors gathered around and exclaimed, “What good luck for you!”
The farmer stayed calm and replied, “Maybe yes, maybe no.”While trying to tame one of wild horses, the farmer’s son fell, and broke his leg. He had to rest up and couldn’t help with the farm chores. “How sad for you,” the neighbors cried. “Maybe yes, maybe no,” said the farmer.
Shortly thereafter, a neighboring army threatened the farmer’s village. All the young men in the village were drafted to fight the invaders. Many died. But the farmer’s son had been left out of the fighting because of his broken leg. People said to the farmer, “What a good thing your son couldn’t fight!” “Maybe yes, maybe no,” was all the farmer said.
Not sure if you also see the value I see in these, but there you are.
I cannot imagine the horrific experiences of so many people, but many people have had the experience of being spiritually enlightened in the exact situations you describe. Many others live their whole lives and die in relative comfort without ever becoming self-aware. I don't know exactly what I'm getting at here other than it depends on what you understand your needs to be. Maybe books like this are saying that you always have everything you need to become enlightened/awake. Even if you don't have food, shelter, safety, or freedom.
I have no clue what book you're reading so maybe take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.
Thank you so much for your initial comments which I’ve boded above. It’s extremely healing when people recognize and validate that issue with me.I guess my question was more or less am I correct in feeling gaslighted by this text? Hex 20 - unchanging
Is 20 unchanging asking me to examine in a reverential way and to be more trusting that I’m NOT being gaslighted (made to doubt my own mind and common sense)???
Hi Foxx777
From what you have written it seems that gaslighting has been a big thing in your life. Being robbed of your power by others is a terrible thing to contend with at the time and fills the head and heart with unpleasant memories and associations that remain for a long time. Maybe the words in the text or the way the commentary has been written reminds you of some of these things that have happened in the past and have triggered in you reoccurances of self doubt. It could even be a bit of a double whammy - being hit by what the past and the present are laying out for you at the same time. It can be useful to remember that what happened in the there and then doesn't have to be the same as, or rule, what is happening in the here and now. This is where trust can have a major role to play.
To answer your question in 2 parts. First I'd say yes you are feeling gaslighted by this text. Then part 2 - Are you correct in feeling gaslighted by this text? Only you will know if this is a correct/ proper/right way for you to feel. Does it feel correct for you?
This is where Hex 20 steps in, it asks for things to be seen and to be seen in a wider perspective, while at the same time offering you an opportunity to review, explore and contemplate until things start to feel correct or start to make sense. It is not always a pain-free process and can be seen as a bit of a cleansing . If that process includes 'endless rumination' for you then you go for it: endlessly ruminate to the very best of your ability ....... and maybe, if you can, be a bit curious during your ruminations as to what stops you from stopping ruminating. The sequence of Hex 19 to 20 indicates that you are in a position to see things in ways that have been hidden to you before and that at the root, working away behind the scenes of Hex 20 is Hex 23, stripping away old ideas and making things more beautiful.
....and of course, it may not mean any of these things.
Good Luck
Very interesting remarks and I can absolutely agree that obsession with karmic retribution is a grave psychological trap.Well ... Rant alert.
When people talk about karma, it's often not about how the the universe actually functions, but because of a heart seeking vengeance. People want the other person to suffer as they have suffered. Or more often, suffer never endingly and way more than you have! From this perspective "An eye for an eye" is enlightened, because it introduces the concept of limited liability. You don't get to demand more than your actual damages. And the state becomes the arbiter and dispenser of justice, so society does not become chaos. But the problem with the vengeance model of justice is it rarely changes anybody, and usually just creates a cycle of violent vengeance seeking. Criminals seek retribution, just like everyone else.
But Grace trumps karma. Forgiveness actually changes people. The Universe does not itself require people suffer exactly as they have caused others suffering. It is People that do that. People can also change that, with forgiveness. You can forgive people their debts. That can break the cycle of violence. That's Dr. King's six principles of non-violence, if you bear undeserved suffering yourself, you can change the person that is lost. As Dr. King says, there is tremendous redemptive power in suffering. And the purpose is to create an inclusive community of love.
In the US, we have the vengeance model of criminal justice. People often feel quite happy and righteous saying they hope someone rots in hell. The recidivism rate is about 70%. In other places, like Norway, where the longest sentence for first degree murder is 21 years and almost no one does more than 14, they have the restorative model of justice. They say you can't teach respect without showing the offender what it looks like, and they haven't experienced it. The recidivism rate is 30% there. Neither is perfect in changing people, but the model that focuses on fixing people, rather than just hurting them as payback works far better.
Anyway, the whole concept of karma is a trap. In India, if you think someone is in their low caste because of their karma - there is little social justice. Things are as unequal as they are because of karma! It's your own fault when bad things happen to you, as the idea was often applied.
Conversely Jesus said The rain falls on the just and on the unjust. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. Asked if a tower fell on a man because of his sins, or his Father's sins, Jesus said - Neither. But worse things will happen to you if you think that way!
We create our own reality sometimes by how we think.
- LL
If only the US would reverse its slide into barbarism in this regard!
Thank you; that’s very good to know.Actually finally we have had some criminal justice reform under this administration. The "First Step Act" let a lot of people out, long jailed for relatively minor non-violent offenses because of Bill Clinton's 1994 "3 Strikes And You're Out" Crime Bill. And with the "Second Chance Act" the Administration is working with employers to train and hire former prisoners to give them a second shot. Trump was very proud of all this and had many former prisoners in the White House in a huge love fest. Many never heard of this legislation, but coupled with the good economy and historically low black unemployment, he is getting rising support in the black community - which was impacted most.
- LL
And as far as I can tell, 3-strikes laws are state laws, not federal. And for good or ill, many of them were passed in the 1990s, bipartisanly, in response to run-away drug and gang violence. They did not originate with Bill Clinton. (UPDATE - it is true that these laws did not originate with Bill Clinton, however a federal version of '3-strikes' - the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 - was enacted under his presidency.
*Thanks so much for your remarks and insights, GreenHazel. Your comments on Hexagram 20 are helpful and illuminating and can’t see why I missed this myself!Hi Foxx
I'm familiar with the Gaslighting idea (as you can imagine) so the title of your thread was too interesting not to have a look...
I agree with all you say in your list and have the same "new-agey" red alarm most of the times, when I read similar things. Most of the times.
What I can offer you are two small ideas, if they could be useful:
1. I read the Image of Hex 20 and this is what is says:
Legge: The image of earth and wind moving above it form Contemplation. The ancient kings, in accordance with this, examined the different regions of the kingdom to see the ways of the people, and set forth their instructions.
How about the IC is telling you that your approach is being actually correct?
You are examining all possible interpretations and angles, and exploring different views (the "ways of people"), as the wind moves across all corners to form Contemplation. Only through this you'll be able to set guidelines ("instructions") for your self. In other words, this book could be useful as part of a wider view, if nothing else to see how certain "people" approach things in order to be able to disregard that approach.
I read somewhere that Hex 20 has the shape of a tower, so the Wider View could make sense.
What you think?
2. During these last 2 months, trying to understand the series of synchronicities and weird coincidences that brought me to the circumstances of my recent thread, I stumbled for the first time upon the concept of Twin Flames. A very new agey thing, which I would normally disregard alltogether.
There is a list of "signs" that you have actually met your Twin Flame; from significant age difference, to differences in culture of origins, to living in different places, to meeting in a place and in a time where you both had to be somewhere else, to one being in a different relationship ... I had them ALL!
Gaslighted is not enough. I feel like I've been literally brainwashed, as all my insecurities and loss of boundaries and rationality started after I allowed for a single week this Twin Flames idea to enter my consciousness.
All this to say: I hear you. I hear the fear of someone forcing your rational boundaries.
And not necessarily because they've been violated before. But because some perspectives and ideas are indeed dangerous, and your (very healthy) instincts are telling you so.
Your twin flame is a mirror of what you fear and simultaneously desire the most for your own inner healing. For example, if you are a highly-strung person, your twin flame will most likely be relaxed and messy. If you like to play the victim, your twin flame will be a strong character who refuses to give you pity or sympathy to perpetuate your complex. If you are creatively repressed, your twin flame will be a flourishing artist. In this way, our twin flames challenge and infuriate us but also teach us important lessons about our fears, core wounds, and repressions.
Your childhoods were polar opposite. You were raised in very different ways, which led to the development of opposite childhood wounds that you now have the opportunity to mend.
One of you is more soulfully mature than the other and often serves as the teacher, counselor or confidant within the relationship.
My interpretation is similar to diamandaone’s. However, and take this for what it’s worth, the relationship I had in my early 20s where he had a girlfriend and was basically stringing me along for sex (which I tried to deny at that young age) wound up with him marrying me. We were married for 21 years up until his death at age 53, and we had an adored son together, who is now 31. He was an excellent father to him. We were soulmates and were loving and devoted to each other and had beautiful times and trips together, the memories of which I still cherish. There is a line in Yi that reads, there has been no beginning but there will be an ample end. That’s how I view my relationship to this man, which began really, really horribly. So you never know. He had been in love with his girlfriend and was more or less using me (which in later years he apologized for). When she left him, he got to know me better and realized he had misjudged me, and fell in love with me. I sure don’t recommend this as a way to meet your husband, but......Just thought I’d add as grist for the mill.
.... And both of us are highjacking this thread for our political ramblings, and I for one am going to stop .... and even remove my post in that vein.you are substituting partisan sniping and talking points for an realpolitik view of the issue.
*That said, I wonder if these “truths” might still be incorporated IF we are able to maintain a rational and critical perspective while using what good qualities these concepts might have? I say this only because my own life has seemed to be a tightrope walk between rational thinking and being pulled into such ideas.
Absolutely, it’s a very connected response to my post and it’s greatly appreciated. I found much of what you said touching. Please don’t regret any of it.Foxx,
I'm really grateful that you have shared your story with me. It sounds like an amazing love story, and I can't even begin to imagine how hard it must have been and must be being without him.
The comments that you have added certainly make me think. Life sometimes should be just lived, huh?
Or, perhaps we should all behave more like in our 20s
Perhaps we'll have the chance to talk more about this, as your story really resonates with me, for many reasons.
I hear you again. I know what you mean. I think we are all ready for living closer to our soul, still... it's so difficult.
I'm an INFJ by MBTI, which make more or less 1% of world population, not only that, is the most misunderstood personalities of all. People normally don't get me. I'm very used to it.
Once every 10 years (and here the IC has been literal again. sigh.) another unicorn like me crosses my path. It's like we can spot each other in a forest of people. The temptation to surrender all rationality, boundary and plain common sense to keep this incredible connection is much, much more than simply flying high on dopamine during any love-bombing phase.
Still I wanted to do exactly as you say, perhaps not to be swept completely away; and in the whole Twin Flames madness, I isolated two concepts that I felt were already mine, somehow.
The idea of love as a tool of evolution.
The idea of unconditional love.
Have I been able to live them? No, of course. Not because they are not valid, but because I'm realizing they are just ideas, and life is much messier and dirtier and crazier; life is your husband falling deeply in love with you almost by accident after a relationship that perhaps was not exactly unconditional love. Life is me giving a very spiritual speech to my guy about friendship and then taking his head in my hands and kissing him passionately. Life is your endless ruminations and writing a chain of back and forth e-mails until Contemplation feels complete. Or changing my mind every two minutes and feeling alternatively very wise and strong and utterly hopeless without him.
Do I know any better, after the Twin Flames madness? Am I really so wise to label all this as brainwashing and turning the page, like I'm doing, or I have just lost something very, very special?
Am I wiser? Am I stronger?
I don't know, Foxx. Perhaps what's making us stronger is just keeping making mistakes.
Like your "mistake" that turned out to be 21 years of difficult, wonderful love.
I'm not sure I'll preview this otherwise I will lose the courage to post it. I just hope that it still has some distant connection with the thread.
I'm an INFJ by MBTI, which make more or less 1% of world population, not only that, is the most misunderstood personalities of all.
Absolutely, it’s a very connected response to my post and it’s greatly appreciated. I found much of what you said touching. Please don’t regret any of it.
As I said I’d be the last person to recommend that anyone throw caution and logic to the four winds and get submerged in some of the situations I have, and I’m glad you’re able to understand that I’m only trying to point out that sometimes, to quote the I Ching, although there has been no beginning there will be an ample end. (Lest I sound like I’m idealizing my marriage I’ll confess that whenever we argued - one doozy occurred on our honeymoon in Paris - I would in fact rant and throw up to him just how dreadful our beginning had been.)
I do still believe however from all I know about your situation that you were wise to put the brakes on and leave him to contemplate and perhaps resurface one day as a single Dad? There’s a hope for that, as well as a hope that another INFJ - or a good match for one - is out there waiting for you.
Cheers
Addendum: Don’t ever give up on your concepts of love ❤ as a tool of evolution and unconditional love.
I seem to recall that a majority of the people here at clarity who responded, are INFJ and INTJ, according to a brief poll in a thread:
Where are you lot on the Myers Briggs Type Indicator?!
Here's a link to an online version of the test if you havent taken it already http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp i think t'would be interesting to see where we fall, as a community of i chingers! I'm an INFP. I wager there's gotta be a load of INFP's in here. all bets taken...www.onlineclarity.co.uk
Your posts brought back some sanity in me, and made a very big difference in these last few days, Foxx.
* hugs you*
Clarity,
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