Path of love

[raeya]

I was hoping to possibly recieve an answer to a question I have regarding love. I'm very new to this, so I hope I'm doing this right..lol.
I have been on again off again with a certain man for quite sometime. It has never really been off, just a matter of space and time. I was hoping if you could give me some insight as to whether or not things will ever get to a committed relationship with this man, or will he continue to let his fears stop him from living? I really do love him very much, and am hoping that the space and time I've given is all he needs at this moment to bring things to where I hope they will go. THank you very much, love and light xxx

 

[raeya]

oh, sorry i forgot to enter the result of the i-ching i got it was 27/2..i think i got that right..im really new to this..hope this is all thats needed

thank u

 

[candid]

Hi Raeya,

I can only offer a short view of your reading at this time.

27 is an image of an opened mouth giving rise to the idea of nourishment. This refers to both nourishment of body and mind. The council is to be sparing of words and to pay heed to what we choose to nourish ourselves with. You have change lines in both the first and final positions. Line 1 refers to letting go of your inner resources which are self-sustaining. Line 6 describes letting go of dependence upon external ties and finding your nourishment from within. This center has great force and so the Ching also reminds us of the responsibility of acting from such a position. Nevertheless, it furthers one to cross the great water or to undertake a great task, so long as one remains in touch with ones higher character.

This changes to 2, called the Receptive Earth. It isn't your job at this time to take initiative, but to allow yourself to be led by this inner nourishing influence found in line 6 of 27.

Sorry this is so short. Hope it helps a little.

Candid

 

[mandy]

I've recently been in the same situation myself. Such heartache! Such intensity! I hesitate to give advice on other peoples hexagrams, but can i please say this from my own experiance: look, and look very hard, at what YOU need (and don't look at him when i say that!). What about YOUR needs? It is not selfish to consider yourself. It's so easy to loose yourself in someone else, especially if you love them with a passion. But, and it's a big but, if you loose yourself totaly what is there left of you to give? I know what it's like to so want to guide, to help someone at the expense of yourself. I guess i'm a little wiser now. Life's too short to be unhappy even for a moment. Keep in life that which makes you smile.
Look to what you nourish yourself with: aka what about you, what do you need.
P.S sorry if i sound like an old cynic. Nursing bruised heart. Thankfully i've met a new man who makes me smile. Heart in slow recovery.

 

[bfireman]

Raeya-

Hello! I have received this hex, 27 and 2, a few times recently, under similar circumstances to you as well. I can relate what my personal interpretation was at the time, maybe this will give you something to think about... For me, 27 always seemed to be referring to the "inner nourishment" I was feeding myself. In tuning into the general tendency of my mind around these issues of love, I found myself almost all the time focused on the future, engaged in fantasy, not grounded in the reality of the moment. Lots of wondering and "what if's". Hex 27 seemed to be very directly saying "pay attention to what and how you are thinking".

Since fantasy is such a major force pulling one out of the receptive "presence" which hex 2 implies, it seems to me this divination is saying you will find your truth if and only if you pay careful attention to this issue of "nourishment". In my experience, the more I am able to disengage from fantasy, the natural response is a state of heightened receptivity and relaxedness as hex 2 implies. Then, the truth of the situation will reveal itself in its own time and way.

Peace and Love - Brian

 

[candid]

Hi Brian,

A very interesting point you've made regarding fantasy and possible harmful nourishment. It does raise a question however. What of imagination as a creative expression? For example, its a common practice for me to turn on the guitar amp and go off to never-never-land for who knows how long? The same could apply for a graphic artist, a writer or any creative activity. I believe there's a subtle but important difference in being absorbed in unreal imaginings and in creative expression, yet, they seem to originate in the same part of the brain or soul, or where ever these things come from. William Blake used term Devine Imagination to describe what he viewed as his source of inspiration.

Do you or anyone else have any thoughts to share on this?

Namaste,
Candid

 

[bfireman]

Hi Candid and everyone-

Sure, I will chime in on this, but first a little personal note in case anyone wonders of cares. I live in western North Carolina, USA. A tiny house by a river, pretty private. I have been here 2 months now and it is beautiful. From my front porch and bedroom window I can hear the river... A little black stray cat showed up about 3 weeks ago. Her name is Lila. She is sitting on my lap now wanting attention as I type away. She is my current girlfriend, and she is a great cuddler. I love her.

I think in regards to imagination as creative expression, there is a big difference between this and fantasy as I was describing it in my previous post. The main point to me seems to be grounded in awareness. Hex 27 seemes to be talking about, and oh boy here we go again... "correct vs. incorrect" nourishment. I think the main point is that fantasy actually brings you away from flowing with the tao, while creative expression, and whatever process this arises from, is in perfect harmony with that. Fantasy, as in my previous example regarding love, was never ever grounded in awareness or receptivity to the present. It was always replaying some made-up story with multiple possible endings which had no basis in "what-is". I read once where a Buddhist monk said "fear needs a future to exist", and this is what fantasy is, namely the mind running on auto pilot unguided by awareness, rooted and given form through a past event, idea, situation, etc. That is what made it a fantasy, versus creative expression.

I tend to view the concept of creative expression as being rooted in the relationship between hex 1 and hex 2, or the formless into form, or spirt to matter, the intangible into tangible.. I see this as the creative being met by the receptive to become tangible, or form, or matter, or whatever outlet this creative expression takes. I think of creative expression as being the interaction of this cycle, and fantasy as being 100% outside this cycle. That is the difference to me, and awareness is the tool needed to keep oneself grounded. Yet then, at some point, as in the example of going off into never-ever-land, even awareness has to be dropped, and just a state of presence maintained in order for this creative expression to materialize.

As to what part of the brain or soul all this comes from, well I have no clue. I have definitely not gone that deep or have the insight or intuition to touch that...

One last little comment regarding fantasy, and this just my opinion from my own experience, is that it never ever leads to a greater understanding of whatever truth might be in a given situation.

Peace yal- Brian

 

[candid]

Thanks Brian.

Your points are well stated, in my opinion, though there is still a little bit of doubt or curiosity concerning fantasy. For example, you state that fantasy never leads to a greater understanding of whatever truth might be in a given situation. I realize that you stated this from your own personal perspective and experience and I completely respect that. From my own perspective and personal experience, I've found certain fantasies to have definitely led me to a greater understanding of myself and even a given situation. Perhaps our different view on this is only semantics. You relate fantasy as being a recalling of past experiences and scenarios you "could have" played out. I think of fantasy more in the future tense. In this sense its more like a vision, or at least contemplation of a vision. At the risk of sounding 'new age-ish', visualization techniques can be a way of creating reality from what originates as only an imagined reality.

From the point of view that ultimately all is vanity, there would seem no constructive purpose in fantasizing. However, from the respect that we create our own reality, visualization of what is not yet has the potential to become real. Therefore, I think its more a matter of being selective and cautious of our thought or fantasy life than eliminating them entirely. Perhaps one could say, be aware of what fantasies nourish and which ones only serve to distract and ultimately mislead us from the path?

I?m going to take an even bolder step and question whether even our darkest fantasies can be the very environment needed to birth a truly creative idea. Perhaps this is why so many Eastern Deities are personified as having such dark and demonic images. Great art is often created from a state of darkest depression and dynamic fantasies.

I don?t mean to sound argumentative but I honestly do find this a fascinating topic to analyze and discuss.

Candid

 

[lenardthefast]

Hi All,
Leonard here, and I want to know how Candid is capable of reading my thoughts and then stating them so eloquently! Once again I am in one hundred percent agreement. My entire life has been a process of fantasizing scenarios, adventures, objects, ability to do different kinds of art, and on and on and on. Everything I am, own(actually caretake), am viewed as being; without exception, began as a fantasy. You could say that I am comprised of all the fantasies I've ever desired. Dreams are the seeds of reality to me and I freely admit that I am totally the product of my dreams. A world without fantasy would have prevented me from becoming me. I love this site. Oh, and guess what else? I was playing my keyboard one nite and I began fantasizing finding an I Ching site where a student could learn and socially interact with peaceful, thought-provoking fellow seekers... The next day I found Clarity et. al. Thanks again Hilary for this wonderful opportunity.

Namaste

Leonard

 

[bfireman]

Hello everyone!

This is getting good! I ditto that thank you from Leonard to Hilary for this forum, it is pretty excellent. Everyone has given me lots to think about, for that I am grateful. Candid, you do not seem argumentative at all. I appreciate your honesty and opinion and everyone else's for that matter. Time to learn and grow...

I am going to try to pay attention to this idea of fantasies that we have begun to discuss here, and see if my remark I made previously is true for me or not. I think that possibly a difference in our opinion is semantics, Candid, but maybe not. Fantasy still seems different to me than creative expression, visualization, or dreams as leonard stated. All those things seem to be rooted in a receptive state, even contemplating the future is rooted in a receptive state. I think my previous remark about fear may have missed the point though, because fantasy does definitely not have to be rooted in fear. I have just found that around the issue of love, for me, it often is. Fantasy does also not have to be rooted in some past event, yet again, for me, this is often where I find its origins. I do take to heart you point Candid, that what is most fundamentally important is to pay attention to what nourishes and what doesn't, as hex 27 implies. I guess the opinion I am taking here is that fantasy is essentially a place of distraction, not nourishment, if not checked through awareness. And I am not labeling it a good/bad thing either, just an observation. I am drawn to the I-ching because it is such a powerful teacher in reflecting to me certain truths which at times I am painfully unware of. Through integrating these truths into my life, I become much more happy and relaxed and able to go with the flow, in essence be more accepting of "whatever". I find that when I catch myself in fantasy, it is usually distracting me from perceiving these truths in some way. Again, I think that here, fantasy, is different than what you have described as creative expression or visualization, or dreams... These things are joy! However one gets there, whether playing music, listening to music, dancing, drawings, painting, reading, writing, meditating, eating some acid, or smoking a big fat joint.... those expereinces seem to be linked to a very open and receptive state, different than what I am proposing as fantasy.

Anyone else???

 

[candid]

Hi Brian. I appreciate your sportsman-like position and openness.

I think when fantasies become more predominant than our actual circumstances for an extended period it can be considered delusional. That can?t be good. In spirit, I agree with what you?ve said.

This leads to the question: Is what we perceive as our circumstances really our circumstances, or is there a bit of delusion mixed in with that as well? The Yi seems to have the affect of clarifying just what my circumstances are, but from a broader view. So then, what state was I in before seeing that view? Fantasy, me thinks ? possibly even delusional. hmmm. This certainly supports your position, possibly magnifies the amount of time we tend to spend in fantasy and narrows the field as to what living in truth really is.

Thanks,
Candid

 

[louise]

I guess what we perceive as our circumstances can't actually be our circumstances because we don't know the future. What I mean is, looking back I remember times when I thought 'my God I'm in terrible circumstances' but then in the light of events that followed I realise I was actually in just the right circumstances only I didn't know it at the time. If the word circumstance relates in any way to circle, it means the whole picture that surrounds you. So I think you are right Candid, as we cannot see the whole circle only past and present we may spend alot of time in what could be described as a delusional state.
Yi, by giving us a bit more of the whole picture, including future repercussions of our actions can therefore be said enlighten our deusional state to some extent. That is of course unless we bring our delusions with us into our interpretations of the answers we get, which I think I often do.

I found the above discussion on fantasy very interesting. For me I think the difference between misleading and pointless fantasy and more creative fantasy is that the creative fantasy tends to be more conscious. There are fantasies I would like to be rid of and they seem to come unbidden from the depths of God knows where in my psyche. Though who knows maybe these could serve a creative purpose. Creative visualisation being more conscious in creating what you want, gives you a choice. Our automatic subconscious fantasies that just pop up from the depths often are repetative and have outcomes that we would not necessarily choose on a conscious level. I guess these are valuable in that they lead us to know better our unconscious motivations. Not sure if this makes sense (well it does to me)

 

[candid]

Hi Louise,

I understand what you're saying and to some extent, I agree with you. Its does however cause me to consider our dreams, which are neither consciously developed nor pointless. Yet, dreams seem the most obvious and purest form of what we're here calling, fantasy, though some are very unpleasant and unlike the sort of fantasies we'd conjure up consciously.

A discussion (extension) on dreams and their significance seems like a natural progression but its such a huge topic I don't know if its something we'd care to explore here and now. I'll just state, for now, that I subscribe mostly to Carl Jung's work on the subject.

Anyone interested in pursuing the topic?

Candid

 

[bfireman]

This is getting interesting... yal are raising real interesting questions. I was not sure how to integrate all this, yet after re-reading that post on the toltecs it is just beginning to digest a bit. Louise, you seem to have hit the nail on the head when you spoke of what we perceive as our circumstances not being our actual circumstances. Huh... that made me think... And then, Candid, bringing dreams into the picture. The truth is I did not post the article on the toltects because of what yal have said, it is only in coming into work this morning and reading your comments that I can see how these ideas of fantasy and dreams are related to both the core of the toltec and yi teachings.

This concept of fantasy and dreams is made a little more clear to me in the context of the "dreaming reality" as the toltects describe it. It seems that our circumstances ARE our cirumstances, they are what they are, yet what they are is clouded by our perceptions of the truth in any given situation. This perception of the truth is resulting from false beliefs we cling to out of fear or ignorance(pigs and fishes??), and thus clouds our "personal dream", or our perception of reality. Please pardon this rambling here, I know I am simply restating some stuff, but it is helping me make a little sense of this as I type away.

This all ties into the I-ching because it is through repeated divinations, over time, that we are able to come to a greater understanding of the what is true and what is not. On a personal level, and i am not speaking for anyone else's relationship with the yi, this is what it is all about. Helping me see the truth. Clarifying this dream bit by bit. This is how it seems to work, similar to how the toltecs describe this process as a culmination of awareness, transformation, and intent. (Damn, on another note doesn't this seem to tie into the Tibetan Buddhist view of the path to enlightenment as a merging of wisdom, compassion, and skillful means??? - OK, that is another topic...)

Anyway, I do not think I am quite qualified or ready yet to really talk about dreams. Give me few years, maybe more, hopefully then I can add this. It is interesting that this all comes up now because just a few weeks ago I ordered some audio tapes by Michael Winn on Taoist Dream Yoga, because I am interested in exploring this a bit. To Michael, dream yoga is an extension of meditation, or integrating more hidden layers of consciousness into ones personality. Sounds interesting... - Brian

 

[louise]

Yes I've noticed that although we don't 'choose' our dreams, so to speak, they can respond to our conscious input. For example if I think hard about say a recurring dream in the day that dream will usually return that night in an altered form.
I suspect therefore theres lots of riches to be gained from dreamwork. It seems the more attention you pay to your dreams the more dreams you get. At one time I had trouble keeping up with mine, so decided to pay them less attention, because, unfortunately, the outer world is so demanding. I suppose conscious creative fantasy and dreaming are oppposite ends of the spectrum, seemingly, but I imagine the more they interact the more powerful the imaginative facility becomes. Maybe there is no such thing as 'pointless' fantasy, because i guess on some level even the silliest fantasy is pointing some direction out to you. To really engage with your dreams perhaps it is necessary to have a more reclusive lifestyle. I sure would like one, the actual world, jobs, money, blah blah just get in the way !

 

[Frankelmick]

Louise and everyone,

I do a lot of dream interpretation and I think you're right when you say, "I suspect therefore theres lots of riches to be gained from dreamwork."

Here's my Introduction To Dream Interpretation tutorial that tries to give you an explanation of my approach.

http://www.north-node.com/dreams/dreamsintro.html

It takes about 30 minutes to complete and I hope it's useful to you.

Best wishes,

Mick

 

[candid]

Mick ? I like it. In order to understand a dream one has to be in the dream. Buy having questions to ask, one creates a sort of pathway to follow into the symbols that each particular represents. Once a feature has been identified symbolically, as seen by the dreamer, a pattern can be established like pieces of a puzzle. I also really like your gentle approach to the subject; it doesn?t feel clinical. Good stuff!

Candid

 

[bfireman]

Mick-

Very very very cool! I will try it out and get back to you after a while. I have always been so puzzled by dreams, and rarely remember them. I have had some real freaky ones lately, kind of on similar ground to the one on the site w/ all the fish and kermit-the-frog. Thanks for the link! Very much appreciated!

peace - Brian

 

[louise]

Thanks for the link Mick, it looks good !

 

[Frankelmick]

Candid, Brian and Louise,

Thank you so much for your support and appreciation :~)

Dharma and I have done some work on improving the tutorial and a better version is ready (efharisto Demitra).

I'll talk to Hilary about the possibility of publishing it here at Clarity.

Best wishes and thanks again,

Mick

 

[lenardthefast]

Hi Raeya,

Was re-reading some past threads and was wondering how your situation turned out? I had forgotten that I actually wrote a poem about dreams last year. Thought I would drop it in this thread as it somehow seems to fit. Best of luck to you.
D r e a m s

I'm sad, and bewildered,

lonely and blue,

what should I say,

what can I do?

Out on a limb,

locked in a box,

thoughts in my head,

heavy as rocks.

Questions abound,

answers wear frowns.

Am I the Ace,

or am I offbase?

Our dreams were the parts,

that unlocked our hearts;

Dreams of pure joy,

of finding the One,

dreams of Our love,

outshining the Sun.

Dreams of the future,

transforming the past,

dreams of commitment,

towards helping love last.

Our dreams are our Lives,

and oftimes it seems,

our life is real hard,

'cause we're Living our dreams.

At times it appears,

there is nothing to me,

no flesh,

tooth,

nor bone;

just a Dream Factory.

Dreaming....

is the One thing,

I Really can do,

I'm the Master Of Dreams,

my most Exalted Dream,

You


Namaste,
Leonard

 

[anita]

Where would I be without fantasy? I write fantasy -- which I think is the most challenging genre since you create your own worlds (humour is very challenging too and my novel - Circe - a funny fantasy has been an e-book for ages on the net). I fantasise a lot in life and Guruji once told me that I stay so young because I have hopes -- to me hope and fantasy are sisters.

The Yi sometimes bursts my bubble but that's all right. Sometimes you do need to come down from the clouds. But fantasy is most important to my life.

Best for your Quest

Anita