pattern 31.4>39

[goddessliss]

I've realised in recent times that I seemed to have attracted relationships, friendships etc. with people all my life where our connection isn't high on their list of priorites.
My husband's priorities were him, his work, etc. first before our kids and I and before and after the marriage my relations with men were pretty similar where our relationship wasn't as a high priority for them as it was for me. This also extends to my friendships. To psychoanalysis this pattern, my parents were the same towards me whereas they had no real time for their kids, so I'm guessing that's how it all started.

Please show me the way to change my relationship pattern

Hex 31.4>39

I'm not really understanding the response here except possibly now that I'm consciously aware of it things will change.

Liss

 

[Trojina]

I've realised in recent times that I seemed to have attracted relationships, friendships etc. with people all my life where our connection isn't high on their list of priorites.
My husband's priorities were him, his work, etc. first before our kids and I and before and after the marriage my relations with men were pretty similar where our relationship wasn't as a high priority for them as it was for me. This also extends to my friendships. To psychoanalysis this pattern, my parents were the same towards me whereas they had no real time for their kids, so I'm guessing that's how it all started.

Please show me the way to change my relationship pattern

Hex 31.4>39

I'm not really understanding the response here except possibly now that I'm consciously aware of it things will change.

Liss

Aha ! Great answer and something I noticed in myself too. I suspect that if you look a bit closer deep down you need your freedom so subtly ensure you get it by choosing people who give you plenty of space. (I'm not applying this to your parents as I couldn't go that far and yet who knows...will go back to that) 31.4 clearly says 'others follow your thoughts'. Thoughts operate and affect things at a subtle level. We sometimes think we want things we don't actually much want.

Society values relationship of any kind above all else. Yi doesn't IMO. Some people need space and time to be who they are and process their development. Being in very close relationships can hinder this if a person needs to process their own stuff.

Lovely answer because what happens for you in these situations really is not rejection of you by them. I think it is your deeper self ensuring it gets room to breathe. This doesn't mean you don't want close connections where you are a priority to the other person. Of course you do. But ask yourself this, could you handle it if you were absolutely the focus of someone else's devotion and attention ? Would you actually feel a bit suffocated ?

On another level one could also take it that early experience made you find close connection hard to handle and that is why you, in your deepest thoughts, choose looser connections now. But that would mean there was some great error in you having the life you had and I don't tend to believe that. With some reservations I tend to think we come into the life that will provide optimum conditions for soul growth. I worry to go too far with that idea because it appears to provide too much leeway to make all kinds of childhood horrors/life horrors acceptable and no of course they cannot be.

If you find you are at the bottom of other's priorities your answer here says that is something of your creation and if you created that why would you ? Why would anyone want that ? Well there's freedom from obligation to start with. If no one is desperately needing your presence you do have a lot of space so deep down, may be on a level of thought you can't easily access, you need space ?


I do think the thoughts in 31.4 are subterranean. Those very deep thoughts that run so close to our core we don't even know we are having them. Another bonus which is often under rated about not being a priority for someone is you are so much more free to connect to others in passing in quite magical ways. If all attention is taken up with a few significant others one is less likely to be open to all the other of the world that cross one's path. Take mothers with small kids for example. They don't even look at other people, all they see is their own child when they are out and about. It has to be that way but they actually shut others out so they can focus on their child.


Hmm but I can't tell you why your deeper thoughts make sure you have plenty of space....but they do. Choosing a partner who is not really emotionally available is quite common for people who need space. It can work really well. It means they are around but they aren't demanding attention. Often people will feel rejected by this....until they realise they themselves arranged it that way.

 

[Trojina]

PS. I do see people consciously fill their lives with obligations to other people so that they can stay absolutely central to other's hearts and minds. And the flip side of that is when they complain they are exhausted and they have lost themselves.

Now if staying free is something you have chosen, as 31.4 says doesn't that change the story of how you feel peripheral in other's lives somewhat ?


It is a difficult truth to come to for yourself because for people, especially women, to choose to have space is not seen as socially acceptable by the vast majority.

 

[Tim K]

Please show me the way to change my relationship pattern 31.4>39

The image of Influence, Wilhelm:
Thus the superior man encourages people to approach him
By his readiness to receive them.

The image of Obstruction:
Thus the superior man turns his attention to himself
And molds his character.

Start with your attitude towards people. Decide what you really want - closeness or freedom, and stick with it.
Eastern psychology says that you attract from outside what you have inside. Like a resonance with sound, and a magnet with metals. Both images and line 4 speak about that.

Awareness of subconscious programs and willingness to change them is the most important part, of course.
Yes most of our social relations are based on childhood memories about our family. I think you are right about that.

Is there a fear of being left alone? causing not to approach someone too close.
Is there a notion in your mind that love should be won or worked for [fear of not being good enough]?
All people just want to be loved, not for some trait or deed, just to be accepted as they are.
Real love is unconditional, god-like.

 

[goddessliss]

Thank you all for your responses you gave me much to think about.

Can I not have closeness and freedom as well in relationships?

Having thought about it, if I have any concerns at all, It's about whether in relationships others will allow me to just be me without telling me what I "should' be doing, when I should be doing it or how I should be doing things, which as we all know is, when we tend to tell others what to do it's how we perceive things should be done.
Yes I do love my own space and being able to do what I want to do, when I want to do it and my personal plans can and do (a lot) change quickly and often. I would definitely say I'm unpredictable in terms of that but I would love to have someone I can rely on 24/7 like a partner and someone to tell me at least sometimes that I'm cherished and loved just the way I am.

What prompted me to ask this question specifically yesterday - I have a friend who I've known for many years although we lost contact for a long time as I'd moved away from the area. When I got back to the area almost 12 moths ago we picked up where we left off as if no time had passed only this time I'm a little less inclined to just take the tidbits of her time that she offers me.
She likes to meet for coffee, chat for half an hour or so, sometimes she drops in to my place but very rarely for more than 20 minutes. Some months ago I said it's not really what I want I would prefer it if we did things together like go to the markets or out to see a band or something where you spend quality time together because when we meet or you drop by for a coffee in the back of my mind, when we're talking I'm wondering how long you're staying and it makes me feel quite unsettled so to speak and I leave feeling a sense of dissatisfaction and think why bother.
She responded by saying that's just her take it or leave it and things did change for a while but now they've gone back to the tidbits situation which I didn't realise until yesterday....

This again turned my thoughts to how much this happens in my life and prompted the question.

 

[ginnie]

I'd say you have a friend in her, even though the friendship is not as extensive and deep as you might wish . . . I'm like you: I pine for better friendships. But I see nobody on the horizon who would be willing to satisfy that. The people I know have a lot of busyness in their lives and they're usually unavailable. I think the best thing to do would be to steady your thinking about her by feeling grateful for the time you do spend with her. Don't count the minutes until she has to leave, but just enjoy her presence. Sometimes saying or showing explicitly how much we appreciate someone being in our lives can give the whole situation a boost in a positive direction and eradicate the resentment we feel about the fact they are not sharing enough of themselves with us.

 

[rosada]

Hi Goddessliss,

First of all, you are cherished and loved just the way you are!!!

I think your story of your old friend not really being there for you and giving you such a weak response to your request for something more fits very well with 31.4 - 39. You want someone who's on your wave length but you can't force it - that just leads to 39. Obstruction. So maybe the advice is the first thing to do to change relationship patterns is don't put so much value on friendships that don't flow naturally.

I've been getting value from a book called Affromations. It makes the case that affirmations where you affirm what you want to be true is already true - "I weigh 110 pounds and wear a size 6!" - don't work because if the affirmation is too far off from what we believe is our true situation, we simply reject it. An Afformation is like an affirmation formed like a question that will then cause the world to morf into what you are seeking. Thus for the perfect body you would say, ask, "Why is it so easy for me to be at my right best weight? " or "Why do I always make such healthy food choices?" or in your situation you might ask, "Why is it i always attract such good friends who love me just the way I am?" And sure enough, the world gives you a glorious response! Knowing this you don't even need the book but the book has page after page of positive questions and if you just read the questions - you don't even have to focus or think! - and you'll find the rest of the day goes surprisingly smoothly.
Right now I'm asking, "Why is always so easy for me to find my new sweatshirt that I hadn't even taken out of it's bag?" We'll see...

The new Moon was in Libra last week and conjuncts Pluto Tuesday - a fine line up for making new connections and re-negotiating partnerships!

Rosada

 

[goddessliss]

Thanks ginnie I hear what you're saying and it's not so much that I resent her I just get frustrated with the situation and then with myself because I continually believe things will be different.
It's sorta like a marriage that ends. For the last couple of years before it ends you hang in there in the hope that things will change until you get to your breaking point and realise it's never gonna happen.
I know I need to stop basing so much importance on our friendship, problem is I do really enjoy her company which is clearly why I crave to spend more time with her.

 

[goddessliss]

Thanks Rosada well I have started to really get that love of self and accept me for the way I am - finally! but I think we do all have moments when we like to hear that someone really does love and cherish us.

Yes it's all a mindset of course just gotta get onto wiping the old tape of thoughts and beliefs to a whole new set of positive and nourishing tapes. The book sounds interesting!

 

[iams girl]

Please show me the way to change my relationship pattern

Hex 31.4>39

Hi Liss,

I’m hoping to be more active now and it’s nice to see you still on the site. Similarly to your question, I’ve been focusing on asking about spiritual development each week lately and am finding that looking at the trigrams is very helpful (the lower trigrams as my mindset, the upper trigrams as my actions). It could be because of my focus on trigrams that Yi is answering me in trigrams (!) or maybe there’s more to it, but it’s been pretty amazing to me that the answers appear quite simple and clear.

For example, a couple of weeks ago, I worked evening shift to help cover for others on vacation (I usually work day shift). My reading was 47.3.4>48 for spiritual development that week. The lines and other ways of looking at the reading still applied, however the trigram images stuck with me most which, as I read them, were “take a gentle approach to work and work will be joyful.” In other words, for my mindset, I viewed the lower hex 48 trigram Wind (gentleness) as the key to the lower hex 47 trigram Water (work). For my actions, I viewed the upper hex 48 Water trigram (work) as the key to the upper hex 47 trigram Lake (joy).

If I had your combination, for my mindset, I’d read the lower trigrams as hex 39 Mountain being the key to hex 31 Mountain. Since the lower trigrams are the same, the Mountain qualities would renew and reinforce each other. As you know, Mountain qualities can include stillness, composure, consolidating strength, sanctuary, sageness, and gateway among others which, to me, implies a hugely spiritual component. Any monasteries around there?! I think it also affirms accepting, as Rosada said, that you are cherished and loved! We’re all here in this Divine soupy essence that surrounds and pervades our existence together helping each other become who we’re meant to be.

For my actions, I'd read the upper trigrams as hex 39 Water (work, objectivity) as the key to hex 31 Lake (joy, communication).

So, combined, I might sum it all up as, “A calm, spiritual mindset (Mountain/Mountain) brings about the work of a transforming joy (Water/Lake).”

 

[goddessliss]

Thanks you iams girl - I consolidated my strength by saying no a couple of times to the coffee meetups and also another friend who said she'd come visit and rang me an hour after she was due I cut her short on the phone.
Both of them have changed their attitude towards me in a positive way particularly the one I wish to spend more time with, which we have done in the way I would like.
This came about as ashteroid said by me just accepting what I want and allowing others to like that as well (or not).

 

[oceangirl]

In the interim of this post I reunited with another long lost friend where the friendship dynamics were the same. Both of these friendships came to an end within 6 months of each other - their call not mine after I had gently spoken to both of them about the saying 'Never allow someone to be your priority while allowing you to be their option' - they were both insulted that I would think such a thing but didn't in anyway try to save the friendship nor change the dynamic.

Now I find myself in the same dilemma with a guy that says he's keen but actions speak differently.

So.....still not sure what to make of it all except I felt no loss when the aforementioned friendships ended.
However I am truly frustrated in having only myself to rely on for evvvvvverything.

 

[diamanda]

I so feel for you Liss. 'Luck' can be so infuriating - I'm totally convinced that who we encounter is a matter of pure random luck. Our choice lies in how we respond to who we meet, more or less like you said too.

I've observed how the vast majority of people I met over the years were of the self-centered/indifferent type. I've also observed how some very lucky people I know (i.e. coming from super loving and supportive families, without any major issues, without any major catastrophic life events etc) also mainly meet this very same self-centered/indifferent type. It just seems that there are so many of them around, hence we all bump into them a lot more often.

On the other hand, it is totally frustrating, and scary, having to rely on yourself for absolutely everything. The 'type' above (I'll abbreviate to SC/I type) sadly never change deeply. They can sometimes adjust their behaviour and make it better for short periods of time if prompted, but then they always fall back into who they truly are, as I'm sure you've noticed. Like you, during large parts of my life I had nobody I could rely on, and so I eventually got fed up and went for compromise. For me, having someone who is half a friend (or even half a partner) is way better than having nobody at all, since having nobody at all makes survival more difficult. At the same time, believing that I could change the deep-seated egocentricity of another person, and struggling to do so, always proved a dead end, so I've long stopped trying to do that.

As about the rare people who do not belong to the SC/I type... I've met a few. At completely random times. At times when I did nothing different than usual. I wasn't working on affirmations, I wasn't on any different frame of mind, I hadn't gone out of my way with a purpose to meet someone nice. It just happened - as it also just happens that I meet the SC/I by the bucketful all the time, no matter how confident/positive etc I feel. And during the lucky times when I'm with the non-SC/I type, having meaningful cherishing moments and freedom at the same time comes easily and naturally.

To go back to your original question (Please show me the way to change my relationship pattern Hex 31.4 > 39). In 31.4 there's a lot of indecision and disorderly acts to and fro. This seems to describe the friend you were referring to. Then 31.4 says "friends follow your deeper thoughts" (deeper thoughts = 思 = head and heart together). When only this line changes, the result is 39. The road ahead is blocked, one needs to back off and think of another route. Imo this shows that in cases like the one you were referring to, the wishy-washy behaviour of the other person can NOT be influenced by your deeper thoughts. Thus, in order to change your relationship pattern, don't try to influence wishy-washy people with your deeper thoughts, you need to find a different route/tactic with them.

 

[oceangirl]

diamanda thank you very much for your post, I'm so glad someone understands what I'm trying to say. Perhaps you are right and I'm yet to learn and appreciate having half a friend/partner is better than being on my own because at this point honestly I don't miss these people and its been a lifting of anxiety for me on that score.
My son told me yesterday he suffers the same thing and he's decided he hates everybody new he meets until they prove to be worthy - good for him although I find that quite extreme.
Perhaps he just meant why waste your time on the wishy washy in the first place!!!
This man I'm interested in still has young children so that's a priority and a pretty responsible job so that's a priority so I've just been pondering if that's ok with me and that essentially agreeing to a relationship with him may mean that our relationship is not on the top of his list so a bit of a big compromise for me - or is it???!!! We understand each other on a level that most others don't so could I just be happy with that unless and until things change ie. his kids growing up and us retiring which essentially both will happen within the next 10 years.

 

[diamanda]

Yes I totally understand how you don't miss those people and how it can be a relief! I guess it all depends on how fed up we feel either with loneliness or with them, at particular times. Your son's attitude is perhaps a necessary step. A very long time ago I used to meet people and assume they're all nice and kind. After many disappointments, I also went to the stage of assuming everyone I meet is an a/h. Then finally I am now in between, I just observe their actions before I classify them

Of course young children should be anyone's priority. The question is, are you his priority at the times when his children are not right there? I hope he's not using his children as an excuse! Anyway, it's a very delicate and personal matter to decide just how much we can compromise. Since you click so well, it sounds like a good idea that you're giving it a go.

 

[charly]

...
Hex 31.4 > 39[/B]). In 31.4 there's a lot of indecision and disorderly acts to and fro. This seems to describe the friend you were referring to. Then 31.4 says "friends follow your deeper thoughts" (deeper thoughts = 思 = head and heart together)...

Without wishing to polemize with Diamanda, who is a wise woman, nothing against her interpretation. I post a more literal translation of 31.4, I believe that W/B is a little twisted in syntax and then, in sense. (3)

H.31 咸 xian2 (together, all / to be sensitive, to respond to) is the protograph of 感 gan3 (feeling, emotion), as pointed by Arthur Waley (1)(2)

貞吉悔亡
zhen1 ji2 hui3 wang2
OMEN LUCKY, REGRET PASSES
It will be fortunate and any regret will not last.
Don't regret nothing.
Regrets pass, experience remains.

憧憧往來
chong1 chong1 wang3 lai2
OSCILLATING GOING COMING. (5)
Swinging forwards and backwards.
Euphemism for sexual intercourse?

朋從爾思
peng2 cong2 er3 si1
FRIENDS WILL_FOLLOW YOU LONGING_FOR
Friends (or pals) will follow longing for you. (4) (6)
With true interest or with intense desire.

​

Maybe the moral of the line results more clear, I don't know if more accurate with respect to the consult. Nobody's perfect.

All the best,


Charly

________________________________
(1) Xiang was translated by Baynes as Influence (Wooing), appeal?

(2) Thanks, Diamanda.

(3) Quoting W/B

31.4 Nine in the fourth place means:
Perseverance brings good fortune. Remorse disappears.
If a man is agitated in mind, and his thoughts go hither and thither,
Only those friends on whom he fixes his conscious thoughts will follow.
W/B

(4) Paraphrasing W/B IMAGE:

A lake on the mountain: the image of influence.
Thus YOU may encourage people to approach
By YOUR readiness to receive them.

(Inspired in Margaret J. Pearson)

(5) A character doubled, like 憧憧 has another meaning than standalone 憧.

(6) About the friends / pals / acquaintance:

• 交朋友 jiāopéngyou: to make friends / (dialect) to start an affair with somebody.
• 交 jiāo: to hand over / to deliver / to pay (money) / to turn over / to make friends / to intersect (lines) / to have sexual intercourse.
• 朋 péng: friend
• 友 yǒu: friend

Mainly from «Mandarin Spot Annotation»

Ch.

 

[diamanda]

Charly many thanks for the different perspective! This particular line's syntax and meaning is one of the most obscure for me. The way I explained it for oceangirl's reading was the only logical way I could think of. But reading the way you have translated it (if only this line changes) makes it sound quite different:

Generalised version
Oscillating going coming, friends will follow longing for you =
you play it hot-cold, and hard to get, and (expect that) the other person will long for/run after you,
and >>> 39 = that's lame, it's not a good tactic to influence others.
In oceangirl's reading it would mean how oceangirl got fed up doing all the one-sided 'longing'.
The friendship couldn't go on like that.

Erotic version
Swinging forwards and backwards (intercourse) - if that's the only 'effort' you put into wooing,
and then (expect that) the "friend"/partner will long for/run after you,
>>> 39 = that's lame, it's not a good tactic to influence/seduce others, the situation is one-sided.

In both versions above, one person is going back/forth, but the other is (or expected to be) truly longing.
In both cases, the result is the 39 impediment.
Is that what you had in mind, or did you mean it in a different way?

 

[charly]

...
In both cases, the result is the 39 impediment.
Is that what you had in mind, or did you mean it in a different way?

Hi, Diamanda:

I didn't analyze the consult, but of course, I have also a bunch of different readings.

I don't give much relevance to the second hexagram., but a raw translation of H.39:

蹇
jian3
IMPEDIMENT
Trouble.
But the character also can depict a FOOT in a STRAW FILLED CLOG,

From: Sears' Chineseetymology
Peasant but comfortable. (1)

利西南不利東北
li4 xi1 nan2 bu4 li4 dong1 bei3
PROFITABLE WEST and SOUTH
Better more loose and vital ...

UNPROFITABLE EAST AND NORTH
... than formal and inhospitable.

利見大人
li4 jian4 da4 ren2
PROFITABLE TO SEE THE GREAT MAN
Good to look for advice.

貞吉
zhen1 ji2
OMEN LUCKY
It will be fortunate.
​

Say, MESSY / COMPLICATED but at the end LUCKY.

But the last word belongs to Oceangirl.

Yours,

Charly
___________________________
(1) I allows also an erotic bias.
Ch.

 

[charly]

For the meaning of West:

​

Jessieca Leo: Sex in the Yellow Emperor's Basic Questions, pages 20-21
Available a Google Books: https://books.google.com.ar/books?i...IHTAA#v=onepage&q="Since many erotic"&f=false

Ch.
___________________________________

 

[diamanda]

Thanks for the 39 analysis Charly, and of course for this new evidence on the Chinese West!

 

[oceangirl]

Thankyou Charly for a different perspective as well - I think yes I am always the one longing and the so call friends know this and rely on this to keep the friendship going with little effort from themselves but as soon as I ask for me they turn away - not good.
However having said that I'd agree with Hex 39 talking of being messy/complicated - these friendships were, because it was obvious that they liked me, the latter even saying many times how she valued our friendship soooo much but acted differently or not in keeping with how I show people I value them.
But in the end Lucky because I'm happy these friends are no longer a part of my life and being able to come to this forum and get insight from other members is truly lucky as it's a way to learn about life and the challenges we can overcome.