Please explain the concept of "Fan Yao"

[kumarsahab]

Hi everyone. Could someone please give me some insight into what the Fan Yao is...how is it found...what does it signify...how can it be practically employed in readings.

Does anyone ever use it 'regularly'?

Also, while we are at it - does anyone use the "Stages of Change" Method (Stephen Karcher) i.e. using the Zhi Gua / Relating Hexagram of each changing line.

Looking to the Seniors for some more clarity on these issues.

Regards.

MoKumra

 

[bradford]

Try downloading my Volume Two PDF at the link below.
It's explained under Gua Bian or Hexagram Changes, page 12.
It doesn't signify anything in divination, but it can often be used
to understand why a line text says what it does.

 

[kumarsahab]

Is that Mr. Bradford Hatcher in the flesh & blood!!! What an honor

Of course I have your volumes....both of them. Love them too. That is where I developed the interest in Fan Yao's. To be honest - I never read through the whole introduction. I certainly did not even dare to touch Volume II. I will go through the indicated text now.

In the meantime, if you could spare a few minutes - I just did a reading "Could you please tell me what I need to know most as of now...". Just a general reading I know when I feel 'stuck' or overwhelmed. I received 32.4.6 changing to 18. In my personal context - I understood perfectly what the Yi was telling me.

But then, the only question that came to mind is how such 'negative' lines could have such extremely positive Fan Yao's. Could you please shed some light....

Regards,

 

[bradford]

You should not be thinking in terms of negative and positive lines.
You need to try to see at least two sides to every line.

 

[Trojina]

Also courtesy of Brad, a sticky

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?8682-Positive-and-Negative-Hexagrams

 

[long yi]

Fan Yao 爻象

Fan Yao 爻象 ( I do not know why it is translated as fan yao). = meaning of the line

It means an explanation of each line in the six line hexagram. Different iching scholar may have different interpretation of the line involved.

Change hexagram 之爻 Zhi Gua (correct ancient name). Just call it change hexagram.

** If there is a proper English name, why bother using a Chinese translated name that no one would understand and use in our daily life.

For example, your actual Iching reading should be like this:
出生时间：年　性别：男　起卦方式：
起卦时间：2014年02月03日08时01分
起卦农历：甲午年正月初四日辰时
神煞：天乙—子申　福星—丑亥　日禄—卯　羊刃—寅　驿马—亥　桃花—午　华盖—丑
干支：癸巳年　乙丑月　乙巳日　庚辰时
旬空：午未　　戌亥　　寅卯　　申酉

六神　 伏神 　　　震宫：雷风恒　32　　　　　　　　　巽宫：山风蛊（归魂）18
　　　　　　　　　【本　卦】　　　　　　　　　　　【变　卦】
玄武　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财庚戌土　应×→　 ▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟丙寅木　应
白虎　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼庚申金　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　父母丙子水　　
滕蛇　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　子孙庚午火　　○→　▅▅　▅▅　妻财丙戌土　　
勾陈　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛酉金　世　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛酉金　世
朱雀　兄弟庚寅木　▅▅▅▅▅　父母辛亥水　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母辛亥水　　
青龙　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财辛丑土　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财辛丑土　　

The Zhi Gua is hexagram 18

The Fan Yao you need to read is 32.4 and 32.6

32.4
Nine in the fourth place means:
No game in the field.

If we are in pursuit of game and want to get a shot at a quarry, we must set about it in the right way. A man who persists in stalking game in a place where there is none may wait forever without finding any. Persistence in search is not enough. What is not sought in the right way is not found.

Six at the top means:
Restlessness as an enduring condition brings misfortune.

There are people who live in a state of perpetual hurry without ever attaining inner composure. Restlessness not only prevents all thoroughness but actually becomes a danger if it is dominant in places of authority.

Six line analysis (my guess)

Line 32.4 refers to a young person approaches a female who will not help him. I guess the female is the owner of the site. It is not her job to teach you.

Line 32.6 means as a result, refers to someone else who may help. Another senior member shines some light, but not enough details for you to get started. You do not trust the answer, nor do you have any confidence that was taught.

Each line has a character associated with it. It inter-dependency on other characters and time and also the guardian stars build a more complex picture. Depends what is your real question in mind.

Iching is the book of change. Each reading is associated with time. Specific questions will get specific answer. Loitering questions will get abstract answers.

Plum Flower Iching Analysis

Hexagram 18 is下巽上艮. Upper triagram is ken earth and lower trigram is sun wood. Soft wind blow over the land. With the change line on the ken trigram = use trigram and sun wood is the body trigram. When the body trigram suppresses the use trigram (wood suppresses earth), 體克用謀雖可成，但成遲. This means it will take a long time to seek what you wish for (if it is Iching learning).

Most Iching beginners failed because they want an answer from the reading as an instant lotto, and do not take the time to read books and learn it bit by bit. Most library books are free to borrow. There are lot of books written, unfortunately some by people who do not really have any understanding of the prior art, but just to translate the language from Chinese textbook.

With time, you will learn bit by bit. No one has the prefect answer to analyzing each hexagram. The reason is simple. If I cast a reading about a stock, I know the answer correctly each time, then I will make great profit from simple stock trading. There is a limit to the game.

On the other hand, if a young man can read a lady's mind from a romance hexagram, he will have a better winning chance in asking the other party out etc. Again, there is a limit why you do not know the answer correctly each time.

:bows:

 

[bradford]

Long Yi -
You do not understand what Fan Yao is or what it means.
You are thinking of Yao Ci instead.
You should not negate something so confidently without
checking first for error in your thinking.
Please look up the section in my book.
I know what it means because the term is my own coinage.
Bradford

 

[long yi]

Bradford,

Thank you for the feedback.
On page 66 of 588 book 1.
You defined Fan Yao 05.6 as
The resonant line in the Zhi Gua. This is not part of the Yi's response, but it may hold clues to the changeing line's meaning.

I do not know the corresponding Chinese name for Fan Yao (?反後?)
On p.59 of 588 book 1, you show that when you change line 1 of hexagram 1, the hexagram is now hexagram 44.
This is pretty standard in Iching line change
六神　 伏神 　　　乾宫：乾为天（六冲）　　　　　乾宫：天风姤
　　　　　　　　　【本　卦】　　　　　　　　　　　【变　卦】
青龙　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母壬戌土　世　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母壬戌土　　
玄武　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟壬申金　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟壬申金　　
白虎　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼壬午火　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼壬午火　应
滕蛇　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母甲辰土　应　　　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟辛酉金　　
勾陈　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　妻财甲寅木　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　子孙辛亥水　　
朱雀　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　子孙甲子水　　○→　▅▅　▅▅　父母辛丑土　世

Hexagram 1.1 changes into hexagram 44. One analyze the outcome of the situation using hexagram 44, and review the teaching of line 1 of hexagram 44.
It is a standard practice.
Hexagram 44.1
○　初六：系于金柅，贞吉。有攸往见，凶，羸豕孚蹢躅。《象》曰：“系于金柅”，柔道牵也。
THE LINES

Six at the beginning means:
It must be checked with a brake of bronze.
Perseverance brings good fortune.
If one lets it take its course, one experiences misfortune.
Even a lean pig has it in him to rage around.

If an inferior element has wormed its way in, it must be energetically checked at once. By consistently checking it, bad effects can be avoided. If it is allowed to take its course, misfortune is bound to result; the insignificance of that which creeps in should not be a temptation to underrate it. A pig that is still
young and lean cannot rage around much, but after it has eaten its fill and become strong, its true nature comes out if it has not previously been curbed.

Some Iching scholar uses that approach, while others look at the six line relationship of each line in change hexagram with each line in original hexagram. To extent this further, if there is only one change line, the relationship between the two trigrams are analyzed.

Thanks for pointing out the term “fan yao” to me. I do not call it “fan yao” and just call it the resulting change line in my readings. It is a common term that I prefer to use because I avoid using Chinese terms in English Iching discussions.

As the former administrator of an Iching Website in China a few years ago, "Fan Yao" technique is used by some Iching users to analyse a situation. It is prior art known for some time. However, they do not commonly use that term with a Chinese name.

Some scholars use a multiple change line hexagram to convert the original hexagram into one change hexagram based on each change line. Then, they analyzed a very complex situation by reading all the change hexagrams. I do not know whether you use this technique or report that in your book.

Sorry for the oversight. I am not sure whether the term "Fan Yao" is “novel” or “inventive” or "copyright" or has great industrial utility. This is not important.

I read part of the book before posting the last reply and did not spend time on reading all the definitions. I still use the term resulting change line when I read the analysis.

It is a lot of work in writing the book and thank you for sharing the book for free. Again, sorry for the oversight.

As far as the situation allows, I always try to use a common English term for most Iching terms. For example, I avoid all the 9.4, 1.6 etc. and just call the line 1, 2, 3,, 4, 5, 6 so that all learners understand the simple term.

Long Yi

 

[bradford]

I do not know the corresponding Chinese name for Fan Yao (?反後?)
Long Yi

反爻

 

[bradford]

I do not use the Fan Yao to analyze the situation at all. Only the Zhi Gua for each Yao Ci, even if there are multiple changing lines.
I use it only to understand the meaning of the text, since it appears to have been a consideration when the texts were originally written.
For example, Line 28.4 reads (in my translation):

The withered poplar bears flowers
An older lady finds herself a young gentleman to marry
No blame, no praise

It's Fan Yao is 32.5, which I translate
To continue in one’s character means persistence
For a woman of maturity, promising
For a man in youth, disappointment

The Fan Yao give me background information on who the second woman and man really are, information I would not have without the Fan Yao or Reverse Line concept.

 

[kumarsahab]

Dear Bradford.

Thank you for your great, practical explanation of using the Fan Yao.

We (the younger students) would be most obliged if you could give us a similar practical explanation on the use of the Zhi Gua for multiple changing lines too. The only explanation I have on this is the paragraph from Stephen Karcher's book which did not clarify the matter enough. He said that they explain 'how' the change happens!!! I really could not put that concept to use in my readings.

Please try and use the previous example I gave - 32.4.6 to 18 - as it is fresh in my mind. I have a perfectly valid interpretation for what the Yi is saying to me but I would love to understand how the individual Zhi Guas can offer deeper insight. Once again, the lines here paint quiet a sombre picture while their Zhi Guas have a definitely brighter vibe (I'm trying my best not to use the words P*#@%!! and N##@$%!@ here)

We're here to learn - please kindergarten it down for us.

Regards,

MoKumra

 

[bradford]

Each line makes its best sense as a simple transition from one gua to another, while multiple lines can be really contradictory. It helps to look at the zhi gua for each, not so much as a "prediction" but to help get the direction the line wants to move.
A method called Transitional Hexagrams (仲卦) makes the changes one at a time from the bottom up, instead of changing them all at once.
eg in 32.4,6>18 you would look at 32, 32.4, 46.6, 18

 

[kumarsahab]

Dear Bradford.

Thank you. I definitely got the basic idea - now I will apply it to some of my readings and see if it gives me any better insight.

Just one question though.

By my limited understanding of the underpinnings of this method - it is sort of assumed that the moving lines (from bottom to top) are a linear progression of events / changes within a basic situation. So I understand that this method assumes that once the first 'change' has taken place, things are not the same anymore anyways.

But that is not always the case in my short experience. The Yi could use changing lines to convey other things too - sometimes the outcomes of two different options or paths, sometimes the lines are just meant to be read 'together' to get a better sense of things, sometimes one lines conveys the problem another the cause, sometimes to hammer the point home by stating it twice etc.

In that case this method would not make too much sense - would it...

I will read up on this - I need to read up a lot more on this.

Thank you for your time nonetheless.

MoKumra

 

[long yi]

32.4.6 to 18; 32.6 to 50 then 50.4 to 18

Just to clarify my view about transition, and suggest other computational techniques.
First transition
六神　 伏神 　　　震宫：雷风恒　(32.4)　　　　　　　　　震宫：地风升 (46)
　　　　　　　　　【本　卦】　　　　　　　　　　　【变　卦】
滕蛇　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财庚戌土　应　　　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼癸酉金　　
勾陈　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼庚申金　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　父母癸亥水　　
朱雀　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　子孙庚午火　　○→　▅▅　▅▅　妻财癸丑土　世
青龙　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛酉金　世　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛酉金　　
玄武　兄弟庚寅木　▅▅▅▅▅　父母辛亥水　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母辛亥水　　
白虎　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财辛丑土　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财辛丑土　应

Second transition
六神　 伏神 　　　震宫：地风升　46.6　　　　　　　　　巽宫：山风蛊（归魂）18
　　　　　　　　　【本　卦】　　　　　　　　　　　【变　卦】
滕蛇　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼癸酉金　　×→　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟丙寅木　应
勾陈　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　父母癸亥水　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　父母丙子水　　
朱雀　子孙庚午火　▅▅　▅▅　妻财癸丑土　世　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财丙戌土　　
青龙　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛酉金　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛酉金　世
玄武　兄弟庚寅木　▅▅▅▅▅　父母辛亥水　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母辛亥水　　
白虎　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财辛丑土　应　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财辛丑土　　

OR

六神　 伏神 　　　震宫：雷风恒　(32.4.6)　　　　　　　　　巽宫：山风蛊（归魂）(18)
　　　　　　　　　【本　卦】　　　　　　　　　　　【变　卦】
滕蛇　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财庚戌土　应×→　 ▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟丙寅木　应
勾陈　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼庚申金　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　父母丙子水　　
朱雀　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　子孙庚午火　　○→　▅▅　▅▅　妻财丙戌土　　
青龙　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛酉金　世　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛酉金　世
玄武　兄弟庚寅木　▅▅▅▅▅　父母辛亥水　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母辛亥水　　
白虎　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财辛丑土　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财辛丑土　

Watch another mathematical trick (I do not know whether there is a name in Chinese for this technique)

Trick 1 (32.6 becomes 50)
六神　 伏神 　　　震宫：雷风恒　(32.6)　　　　　　　　　离宫：火风鼎 (50)
　　　　　　　　　【本　卦】　　　　　　　　　　　【变　卦】
滕蛇　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财庚戌土　应×→　 ▅▅▅▅▅　子孙己巳火　　
勾陈　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼庚申金　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财己未土　应
朱雀　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　子孙庚午火　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼己酉金　　
青龙　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛酉金　世　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛酉金　　
玄武　兄弟庚寅木　▅▅▅▅▅　父母辛亥水　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母辛亥水　世
白虎　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财辛丑土　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　妻财辛丑土　　　

Trick 2 50.4 becomes 18
六神　 伏神 　　　离宫：火风鼎　(50.4)　　　　　　　　　巽宫：山风蛊（归魂）(18)
　　　　　　　　　【本　卦】　　　　　　　　　　　【变　卦】
滕蛇　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟己巳火　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母丙寅木　应
勾陈　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　子孙己未土　应　　　▅▅　▅▅　官鬼丙子水　　
朱雀　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　妻财己酉金　　○→　▅▅　▅▅　子孙丙戌土　　
青龙　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　妻财辛酉金　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　妻财辛酉金　世
玄武　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛亥水　世　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛亥水　　
白虎　父母己卯木　▅▅　▅▅　子孙辛丑土　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　子孙辛丑土　　

On paper, the 32.4.6 to 18 can be read as
a. 32.4 to 46, 46.6 to 18 or 3.2.4.6 to 18;
In the second mathematical trick
a. 32.6 to 50; 50.4 to 18.

For those who understand the Chinese character in the six line method, the two hexagrams 18 from the two different computation methods do not have the same assigned character for each line. The outcome is based on computation with two different software of calculating six lines. I do not have time to manually calculate and validate this observation.

For an event that has not happened, this may mean a two pathway that leads to two different outcomes for the same situation. For those who knows Tarot two path readings, this lead to two possible outcomes with no concrete answer, the pro and cons of each decision depends on the querent.

For example, if you leave for office at 9:00 a.m., there is a snow storm and you may encounter bad road conditions, including danger. If you leave at 3:00 p.m, the road has been cleaned and the sun reappears. Timing and human intellectual decision govern the outcome of the situation.

There are two schools of thoughts, one can go from line 1 to 6 in an analysis. However, there are scholars who think line 6 goes down to line 1 in a change hexagram analysis.

In a third school of thought by Iching scholars (under development and non-validated), they use the relationship between line 6 and 5 in the change hexagram to predict the entire outcome of the situation. I do not have confidence in this third school theory. This is based an analysis of over 600 hexagram from different querents with different situation.

Iching analysis is like detective work. The analysis will therefore be left to the querent’s knowledge and determination to analyze the reading and situation.

In both set of readings, things seem to go good at the beginning and then completely ruin at the end. The situation thus requires correction.

If life is like driving on a highway and this is a road that you can choose to exit anytime. For example, I hold a 100 share of a company in the stock market, the 32.4 to 46, 32.4.6 suggest to the querent to sell the shares when there is still buyer to avoid having the money trap by other factors (recovering investment with a gain or else face a loss). The 32.6 to 50, 50.4 to 18 tells a picture that the querent sells the share and leaves this investment, else other factors set in. The oversight can be costly to the querent.

Regardless of method of analysis, something goes wrong in the middle of the situation. Exit or stay remains the decision of the querent. If stay, fix the problem later. If exit, not your problem any more.