Please... some input concerning Hex 55....

[bruce_g]

Cucumbers, aspergers, zoombies and blurters – what a strange salad we make.

I’ve said before that I, for some unknown reason, like Chris – but that said, I completely agree with Brad in that he constantly throws newcomers an impossible curve ball to swing at. That’s just very selfish and poor judgment, imo, to say nothing of completely inappropriate social behavior. What if I were to go into a local mosque, and every time something was quoted from the Koran, I stood up and started telling them they’re all missing the truth and started preaching salvation through Jesus Christ? I would rightly be tossed out on my arse. Make no mistake, Chris is preaching his religion like a zealot amidst a congregation of believers of entirely different persuasion. To persist that way is just begging for rejection.

Names don’t bother me much. Lord knows I’ve been called my share here over the last few years. But that doesn’t make it right, because it may deeply bother someone else. I don’t know what to say about WF that hasn’t already been said. She came ready for a fight, and would fight at every turn possible. Just a very angry person, whose predictions were infallible. The predictable thing about her way of interpreting is that, certain new people prefer being told in black and white what will happen and what they should do.

I had a visual about this the other day. Two diviners set their table up in the marketplace. One had a sign: “Your future about love and prosperity predicted here.” The other’s read: “Discover yourself.” At the end of the day, the fortune teller drove home in a carriage. The other had to walk home. The majority always gravitates to the lowest common denominator.

 

[martin]

I am exactly the same way. Not only can I not tolerate watching violence, I have to be careful about what I hear. When I hear about suffering I can feel it in my own body.

Reminds me of the story in the Bhagavad Gita about Krishna and Arjuna. The 'warrior' (Arjuna) needs to awaken.

There is another story about a mean snake that used to bite everyone. The snake met a holy man who told it that it should not do that. "Don't bite people anymore".
The snake agreed, but then people started to kick it and throw stones at it. The snake returned to the holy man with wounds all over its body and complained "See what they did to me".
The holy man answered "But I only said that you shouldn't bite, I didn't tell you not to hiss!"

There is no need to bite but Arjuna should still be active. Otherwise anything that happens will stone and kick us.
I know what it is, have been stoned quite a lot when Arjuna slept...

 

[Trojina]

Reminds me of the story in the Bhagavad Gita about Krishna and Arjuna. The 'warrior' (Arjuna) needs to awaken.


There is no need to bite but Arjuna should still be active. Otherwise anything that happens will stone and kick us.
I know what it is, have been stoned quite a lot when Arjuna slept...

Er I think Arjuna was required to bite, to go to battle, to kill. That is what the conversation with Krishna is about isn't it. He had to do more than hiss.

 

[martin]

Yes, but I think that is metaphor, right?

 

[bruce_g]

Reminds me of the story in the Bhagavad Gita about Krishna and Arjuna. The 'warrior' (Arjuna) needs to awaken.

There is another story about a mean snake that used to bite everyone. The snake met a holy man who told it that it should not do that. "Don't bite people anymore".
The snake agreed, but then people started to kick it and throw stones at it. The snake returned to the holy man with wounds all over its body and complained "See what they did to me".
The holy man answered "But I only said that you shouldn't bite, I didn't tell you not to hiss!"

There is no need to bite but Arjuna should still be active. Otherwise anything that happens will stone and kick us.
I know what it is, have been stoned quite a lot when Arjuna slept...

Excellent story!

Well, Martin, back in the day, we were all pretty stoned when Arjuna slept.

 

[martin]

 

[autumn]

The 'warrior' (Arjuna) needs to awaken.

LOL. It's quite a bit deeper than assertiveness versus aggressiveness versus passivity.. but thanks for the great story.

 

[Sparhawk]

If anyone calls me monkey or worse, I don't have a problem with that.

Hey, Brad calls me monkey all the time and I feel honored! My hope is that one day he'll call me "grasshoper"

L

 

[martin]

LOL. It's quite a bit deeper than assertiveness versus aggressiveness versus passivity..

Yes, sure ..

 

[bruce_g]

Arjuna wasn’t facing his enemies, but those he loved and cherished. Naughty Krishna!

 

[lightofreason]

.. Chris is preaching his religion like a zealot amidst a congregation of believers of entirely different persuasion. To persist that way is just begging for rejection.

Your confusing religion with science. The IC+ material has IDM and its references to GOOD research in neurosciences, psychology, anthropology etc etc etc whereas religions have no such thing. The Traditional IC material has NOTHING behind it to demonstrate its grounding in FACTS of nature; IC+ gives that grounding but in doing so also means a slight paradigm shift in understanding what the IC is about, what it represents as a metaphor.

As to complaints on being repetitious - that to me shows vanity in that you and others seem to think this list is for you alone and so if you have read something you dont want to read it again - tough, this is a public forum with people in and out all of the time and peppering posts with links to old conversations or my web pages to give history does help (although for some reason many dont like following lists!) so I will OFTEN give more information than is required since I am aware of others reading the material and that WILL mean cut n paste etc to give SOME history re what is being covered.

Now if you, as a regular, dont like that then you are not thinking clearly about the dynamics of these sorts of lists.

As for newbies - if they dont understand something (and this goes for oldies as well) they ASK.

 

[bruce_g]

This, the same as led Arjuna to battle. Gotta love his style.

View attachment 149

 

[luz]

Nobody has demonised it Lightangel ?

This is weird its like become a kind of argument about who deserves banning most Wfox or Chris. I don't know how we got here. Theres only one person who can ban Chris if that is what you want and she isn't here so why are we talking about it ?

Hi Trojan

Well, perhaps 'demonize' is an exaggeration but let's see:

Saying that she was caught lying to questioners seems to be an exaggeration. She might have misled them, yes, but I don't think she did it on purpose. She could have lied in the past when confronted and asked to explain where her predictions came from. But I would not consider being wrong as lying. Lying on purpose to others with fake predictions would be pretty demonic, I think.

Saying that those of us that are oblivious to the violence WF exhibited are brainwashed monkeys (okay, zombies, but I do prefer being a monkey ) sounds like the things she DID were very very wrong, very very violent, a bit.. demonic perhaps?

Even saying that she was willing to fight is a bit of an exaggeration. If it wasn't because I don't agree with the way she does her readings (although I'm aware that some people like her readings very much and some people even thrive in being told what to do - I've seen that plea around here from time to time: "tell me what to do"), I would even say she was attacked by most people here without any other provocation than to do her readings in her way. And I'm sure the world is filled with fortune tellers that do no more and no less than what she does. And I, for one, don't view the Yi as a fotune telling machine and i know most people here don't either and that is why it was such a shock to see the way she did things.

But I never saw that she started arguments with people unless she was provoked first. And I saw no real malice in her outbursts, I saw a little bit of pain. Like Hilary herself, who sympathizes with the underdog, I'm pretty sure we can all sympathize a bit with somebody who, whether right or wrong, is criticized by virtually everybody else in the forum. I have no idea why she reacted in such a strong way that last time against Jesed but what do you see, if you don't see vulnerability and pain in such an outburst? You probably see a demon, yes? I know we are not children but we all have a little bit of that in ourselves. You've never had a two-year-old (or older ) that tells you that they hate you because they can't have their way? Are those words powerful? Do they hurt anybody? Do they matter? Would you see in his attitude anything other than confusion and pain?

I don't know, I don't really wanna change anybody's mind. FWIW, I don't like violence either. Don't even watch or read the news. Hate action movies. But, if we are going to be so sensitive about a childish threat, why can't we be sensitive about the threatener? She is also a human being and, in my opinion, she was in pain.

I bring up Chris not in the vein of 'he should be banned instead of WF'. I bring him up because he insults people. I don't know about others, but there might have been a time when I would have been very hurt if somebody insinuated I was an unfit mother. And I am sure a lot of people don't really appreciate being told that they are too dumb to 'get it' and that is why they are 'afraid' of his theories... or that they are crazy because they believe in God. My point is, if we are going to be so sensitive about WF's insults, why are we oblivious to other kinds of insults that go on around here day in and day out? Because it's disguised by two miles of prose and 100 pound of intelligent-sounding nonsense? Or, to be fair, nonsense that might have some truth in it but that truth refuses to shine in that illegible writing of his. And I also don't think there is malice in him but there should be some understanding of how his attitude is wrong.

 

[bruce_g]

Chris,

a) This not a public forum; it is a privately owned enterprise.
b) If the owner chooses to keep you, the rest is mute.
c) That you disagree that you preach a religion isn’t unexpected. It doesn’t matter. I never expected you to be influenced in the slightest.

 

[Trojina]

Hi Trojan

. But, if we are going to be so sensitive about a childish threat, why can't we be sensitive about the threatener? She is also a human being and, in my opinion, she was in pain.

.

We need to be clear who the 'we' is here. Jesed didn't ban her, we all know we don't have the power to ban other members even if 99.9 % of us had an issue with them.

So I can't see who your grievance is directed to Lightangel, none of us here did it.

So who are you saying is the 'we' thats being sensitive ? If you mean Rosada I would say shes shown nothing but tolerance and kindness for Wfox since she arrived. If you recall she was the one who urged Jesed not to respond to Wfox request for 'list's' cos she doesn't like aggravation here. (except I think she'll have to get used to it, lol) I don't know why she was talking about 'brain washed zombies' - but we all have our moments don't we if we feel strongly. I doubt she meant it personally.

I think we all realised Wfox was in some pain, yes, but that doesn't mean its okay to carry on being destructive, allowing someone to be destructive does not help their pain does it ?

Anyway lets get this in proportion she could be back in a few days, it was only a week ban. My god and when she does I had better keep a low profile

As I said before I don't know why we argue with each other about this as we are powerless to affect anything.

 

[jesed]

Lightangel

You are confuse about what I wrote.

I said WF was lying, not because of her interpretation (those are opinions or even errors, but not lies).

I said WF was lying, first time, when she said she knows najia system; then I probed she was lying because she didn't know where Snakes and Horse come in my interpretations... and anyone who knows even a little bit of naji system knows that it is based on Heavenly Stems and Earthly Branches (yes, those fantastic animals like Snakes or Horses).

That is not a mistake, that is not an opinion. That is a lie.

(see elizabeth threat about salary increase for further reference).

Then I again said she was lying when she said I never answer the questions but with another questions. That is also a lie. Not an opinion, not a mistake.

So, no exageration about WF lying some times (I dont' say that all she wrote is lie)

Again, as a generality: does lying ionvolve some kind of maliciuos or not? That is the point.

Best wishes

 

[Sparhawk]

This, the same as led Arjuna to battle. Gotta love his style.

View attachment 149

That Arjuna brother knew how to live in style...

L

 

[luz]

Jesed,

I don't know, at some point I thought you said she was mad because you showed she was lying, I might be wrong about that. You perhaps only proved that she had been wrong many times. That is still not a crime for me.

Is there inherent malice in lying? I don't know, that is a question that philosophers might debate about and not completely agree. Personally, I will say no for a short answer and run for cover in case any self righteous souls call me inmoral.

Trojan,

I know there is no point in arguing about this. I don't even have an agenda, I'm not pro "bring WF back" or "ban Chris" or anything.
I responded to your comment about "demonizing willowfox". And yes, I don't appreciate being called brainwashed zombie. I know it's not personal but I have feelings too and I am not completely happy to be contrasted as the hardened individual versus such a sensitive soul. And the irony of the aggression doesn't escape me...

And, of course, there is some hardening in me, otherwise I would be as lovely as Martin who takes everything as a joke and can not even dream of being offended because he doesn't register snide remarks. Now, that is a sensitive soul .

 

[mudpie]

I don't think Wf was malicious either, just very high strung. She had some kind of eclectic method for "working", maybe even considered herself a visionary, and seemed to like the idea of helping people. she frequently called it "her work." Zany and hot-tempered, but not malicious. The extent of her anger surprised me though, as I thought her persona was created and that she wasnt so invested in it. BUt why would a professional psychic want to drag Trojan though the mud or threaten Jesed? She might have been joking on major scale. I am glad she Pm'd trojan, for what it is worth.

Remembering the 18.4 thread,and an "inner child"'s desire to slice up testicles and serve them up on a plate, I'd say Jesed has a great power/ability to arouse the rage in women. NOt justifying the rage, mind you, because it always points back to the one enraged, and sometimes the truth hurts. I bet he is good in the courtroom, unrelentingly and calmly seeking to unearth the truth, however unpleasant.

The lady in 18.4 , the one who was loved/feared (speaking for myself) actually left Clarity after that thread and I never thought that would happen. BUt very few ever thoroughly confronted her, and jesed did.
Chris I dont mind at all. I just scroll. and i learned that right away, at first thinking I lacked the intellectual prowess (and not caring one whit) and then later because I simply have no patience for the verbose.
STILL, I often wonder what happened to Val and if the scaffolding ever came down or the Great Man came back. AND I really do wonder WHO WF is, where she lives, what languages she speaks, and what her life is really all about. Although death threats are undoubtedly unnerving to a hostess like Hilary, in general, the arguments on Clarity are pretty damn interesting. It's like a really good novel, and the human drama, interspersed with all the rest of the good stuff makes it fun

 

[autumn]

I think we all realised Wfox was in some pain, yes, but that doesn't mean its okay to carry on being destructive, allowing someone to be destructive does not help their pain does it ?
As I said before I don't know why we argue with each other about this as we are powerless to affect anything.

Totally agree...... and also totally agree that when a 2-year beats their fists against your chest and says "I hate you" because you won't be influenced by their desire to dominate or control a situation it's easy as an adult to know the truth, have perspective, and ignore the tantrums (or long-winded, pathologizing posts). But it doesn't do the person in pain or who otherwise experiences tunnel vision regarding social conventions any good to allow the bad behavior, and in fact, everyone in the family suffers if there aren't limits.

But who cares what I think?- is this truly a "family" with guidelines and limits? If it is, then I'm not the mother here. I'm not sure that's how Hilary sees her role. If it were my forum, I'd have intervened if I saw, 1)monolouges that detracted from the discussion, 2) repeated personal attacks without apology, 3) demands for attention, 4) divinations that markedly departed from my own code of personal ethics regarding predictions, explaining how answers were arrived at, and blaming the consultant for questioning a reading.

If someone sabotaged my web page, or my email, or my account, I'd be on the phone with their ISP, and I'd be very serious about the consequences.

So, I have compassion for both Chris and WFox and what their inner experiences might be, but it doesn't help them or anyone else to just allow abuses. But- who cares? Not my call- and I've been irritated by others, too, though I've tried to work it out and move on.

 

[beithe]

Listener said...
the arguments on Clarity are pretty damn interesting. It's like a really good novel, and the human drama, interspersed with all the rest of the good stuff makes it fun

I feel somewhat honored that some of the threads I started became so....hot? You learn the players at each new shift of scene.

beithe

 

[rosada]

Dear lightangel,
I'm not calling you anything, but I certainly apologize if I gave you that impression and it did indeed hurt your feelings. But perhaps you were teasing. And that's part of the problem. We can't always know a poster's feelings from their words, especially if we allow words of threats or violence to be bandied about like jokes. Anyway, when I said it "sounds like zoombies who have become numb (etc.)" I'm not calling anyone names, I am sincerely saying that if we have gotten to the point where we feel comfortable responding to a poster saying in obvious anger, "Will somebody just shoot him?"', if we can read that and just say, "Oh Jesed, it's no big deal, don't take it personally," then I wonder just what is a big deal and what should we take personally?
I used to live in New Orleans. Every couple of weeks we heard about someone we knew or a friend of a friend getting shot. I became numb. Now we live in isolation in the mountains. My feelings are coming back to life. I feel pain and I am shocked at how much I used to watch and just ignor: the violence on t.v.. in the news and in our day to day conversations. Maybe you don't like it to be even implied that you are not fully awake and aware. I am not suggesting we have become zoombies to insult anyone. I am saying it as a WAKE UP call. If anyone thinks calling for someone's murder is acceptable anywhere and especially on a website dedicated to Clarity, then I think we need a wake up call.
Anyway, to let you know where I'm coming from, I lived in Mendicino in the 60's and 70's. Alot of my friends went off to Guyana and "drank the koolaid" as Bradford so politely put it and that's what I'm really sounding off at today, but of course, he had no way of knowing he was stepping on my heart when he made his witty comments, and who knows, maybe he was right. But anyway, that's what's going on with me. So I blast everybody else instead. And I do apologize.

 

[rosada]

Thanks for the encouragement, Autumn. I get results with taking SAMe.

Thanks for your level analysis, Trojan. Must be that Pluto in Virgo on your ascendant!

And thank you too, for pointing out my inconsistancies, lightangel. And if you are not being numb, if you are not indenial, but are truly able to see the humorous side of her outbursts - and several people have mentioned our dramas do make for an interesting
read - well then I say FABULOUS. To see the good, the bad AND the funny - hey that's what I want to see too. Maybe these discussions are to prepare us for hex. 19. Hmm..gives me an idea for a FRIEND"S QUESTION!

 

[lightofreason]

Chris,

a) This not a public forum; it is a privately owned enterprise.

all material is open to the public for reading and therefore is public.

b) If the owner chooses to keep you, the rest is mute.

owner's comment was as long as there are those who are interested, I stay. So to get rid of me you need to pressure those interested to become not interested. ;-)

c) That you disagree that you preach a religion isn’t unexpected. It doesn’t matter. I never expected you to be influenced in the slightest.

I preach a perspective based in information that is (a) repeatable and (b) refutable. No religion does that. They preach (a) that is not repeatable (specific miracles) and (b) not refutable (since there is no proof, you can say whatever you wish - it all becomes an emotion-driven power game where skill in rhetoric determines any 'truth'! LOL!)

"There is a God"
"How do you know"
"he/she/it came to me in my dream"
"Really! how nice for you"

 

[bruce_g]

all material is open to the public for reading and therefore is public.



owner's comment was as long as there are those who are interested, I stay. So to get rid of me you need to pressure those interested to become not interested. ;-)



I preach a perspective based in information that is (a) repeatable and (b) refutable. No religion does that. They preach (a) that is not repeatable (specific miracles) and (b) not refutable (since there is no proof, you can say whatever you wish - it all becomes an emotion-driven power game where skill in rhetoric determines any 'truth'! LOL!)

"There is a God"
"How do you know"
"he/she/it came to me in my dream"
"Really! how nice for you"

Whoa, dude.. an entire post without the use of "XOR". There's hope for you yet, grasshopper.

 

[bruce_g]

I preach a perspective based in information that is (a) repeatable and (b) refutable. No religion does that. They preach (a) that is not repeatable (specific miracles) and (b) not refutable (since there is no proof, you can say whatever you wish - it all becomes an emotion-driven power game where skill in rhetoric determines any 'truth'! LOL!)

And you admit you preach. Well, praise the Lawd!

 

[heylise]

"Why Hilary chooses to ban posters like Willowfox "
and "Actually Wfox was just banned and Hilary did not really give the reason why she was doing it "...

Hilary did not make that decision alone, we made it together.

When you are part of a forum like this, you do have a kind of responsibility. People come here with questions, and very often they are vulnerable. So when they receive an answer, it can have quite an impact. All together you make the base for the querent to take it seriously or not, so everyone does have some responsibility for it. Even when there is only one person who actually did give that answer.

For answers like "yes, go ahead, blackmail the landlady", or "go ahead, buy that house" the diviner is obliged to give very clear reasons, why that answer is given, where it comes from. WF refused to clarify her sources. Instead of understanding that others were questioning what she said, and tried to add their own insights, she felt it as attacks. She demanded total control over anything she said, nobody had any right to even ask about it. If she wants that, she should give readings entirely on her own, one to one, or on her own self-made forum. Then a querent knows that he/she is asking only WF and nobody else is backing it up.

Here people know that it is a respected forum, it has a good name, so they trust that they will receive a good answer, and that any personal view which is doubtful, will be questioned by others.
So everyone should be free to give an opinion, without that causing any anger in anyone.

I can very well understand, that WF has difficulties herself, or that she is used to voicing all her feelings in a loud way, but that is no reason to let her go on this way. Personally I can appreciate a hot discussion, although this was too vulgar to my taste. But that is not at all the reason, that I think Hilary's/our decision was a good one. It is the responsibility of a forum as a whole, which made it necessary. That has nothing to do with any person, it has to do with forum-ethics towards newcomers.

Martin learned how to deal with noisy people, and that is a very good thing. but obviously his family also gave another message: when and how to be noisy. So Martin is very tolerant, and not attacking. If WF had known tolerance, there would not have been any problem.

And of course a group-decision is never something everyone unanimously agrees with. A good one adds up all pros and contras, and then a result comes out of it.

LiSe

 

[luz]

Dear Rosada,

Apology accepted. I do understand where you are coming from although I'm not really sure I understand about 'drinking the kool aid' , or why it should be a bit offensive.

In any case, I understand you made some assumptions about why one would not be shocked at what went on and I understand that it was not personal.

 

[martin]

And, of course, there is some hardening in me, otherwise I would be as lovely as Martin who takes everything as a joke and can not even dream of being offended because he doesn't register snide remarks. Now, that is a sensitive soul .

What a lovely thing to say, you are an angel.
I do have a sharp tongue though, as most here have probably noticed by now.

 

[Trojina]

Hilary did not make that decision alone, we made it together.

.
And of course a group-decision is never something everyone unanimously agrees with. A good one adds up all pros and contras, and then a result comes out of it.

LiSe

I can't argue with any of your above post but how on earth do you maintain it was a group decision ? I mean I agree its the right decision, I agree many here seemed not happy about what was happening, but others really didn't seem to care. It certainly didn't look like a group decision unless there was some covert polling I didn't know of. Did we ever add up the pros and cons as you say we did ? While I agree with your worries about the predictive style I don't think Wfox wasn't banned because of it. Otherwise it would have happened months ago when a few of us really were very clear about our problems with it.

Just a factual question, why do you say it was a group decision. Have I missed something ? You are stating it as if it were fact ?

Re the quotes you used I don't know why they are linked. One is what I said, that it was Hilary decision the other it was not mine I don't think. They aren't linked , they were in different contexts. I don't like to feel misrepresented thats all, though I'm sure it was not your intention. Mine was "Actually Wfox was just banned and Hilary did not give the reason why she was doing it".