Premonition or Wishful Thinking

[arabella]

Thought I was done with this! But no. As the inertia drags on and on, I decided to do a conclusive reading -- one way or the other -- for the renowned "relationship" in my life. My last attempt at being "radical" didn't really work and seemed rather lame in the end. Instead I was thinking, maybe forget the drama and just quietly walk away. So I asked "What happens if I just let this relationship go?" The Yi gave me 2.3 changing to 15. My reading of this was, to just let it go would have the greatest positive effect. So, deep breath, resignation, just forget it, and go on. Simple solution and I put down the coins and said, there, that's enough then.

Minutes later, I drifted off to sleep and had the wildest dream about this guy. The first time this has ever occured -- and I won't bore you with the details, suffice it to say quite steamy -- and not just ANY dream, but one of those very REAL ones where you wake up and it feels like it's still THERE in the room. Rats.

So I'm thinking, maybe i got 2.3 to 15 wrong; either that, or maybe my subconscious thinks this is very funny to play this dream now that I'm thinking it's settled. Anyway, deciding to ask for clarification, I posed another question to the IChing: Was this dream a premonition of the truth about this man? -- since in the dream he was quite certain we should be together and left no room for doubt.

This time, I got Hexagram 12. 4.6 becoming Hexagram 8. Which seems to say, this is a "mandate," remove the block and get on with it, that if you push past the blockage, there is joy? Then there is some sort of union or peace of mind in the future?

As Willow Fox has noted before, whatever is to get done to kick off the relationship [if there is to be one] seems to be my job. He has been too reticent or afraid of something. Is that the blockage? OR, is wishful thinking the blockage and that was the thing to remove -- as I was thinking in the first place -- and get on with whatever comes next and ignore this dream?

Somewhere there is an end of this, one way or the other. And I'd love to know where.

 

[edge]

Hi Arabella,
12:4,6 to 8 does seem to indicate something quite positive, moving beyond the blockage. I'm not sure though if it refers to you getting beyond the hindrance of being hung up on this man and moving into equilibrium, or if its about the two of you finally getting together...sorry that's not more helpful!!!
E

 

[meng]

Arabella, I believe there's hidden meaning in your dream that can unblock this thing. Consider any small detail that (for some strange reason) stood out in the dream, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant it may be. If it jumps out at you, you may see it and catch it. And with that, you can bring about the change in 12.6.

12.6 is like redesigning or redirecting something, the way a blocked or cut off nerve will seek to make new ways to grow around an injury or obstruction, or dead zone. The body's intelligence does it all the time. It's just sometimes harder to make it happen in our head. But the dream is where the hidden lines are, I believe. Find the bigger picture through the smaller details.

 

[arabella]

Edge, I'm there with you. You are thinking just what I am thinking, and I can't decide either, which way is the way to go. This situation is maddening, because I can't make up my mind what is the operative feature here and I'm pretty sure that MY confusion causes confusion for him too.

I keep searching for the kind of "clue" Meng is talking about. Maybe there's a better question to ask.

Also, in the initial reading: Hex 2.3 to Hex 15, I believe that hex 2 refers to the month of May?

 

[willowfox]

So I asked "What happens if I just let this relationship go?" The Yi gave me 2.3 changing to 15.

posed another question to the IChing: Was this dream a premonition of the truth about this man? -- since in the dream he was quite certain we should be together and left no room for doubt.

This time, I got Hexagram 12. 4.6 becoming Hexagram 8.

Your question is what the outcome will be if you walk away, so it is not advising you to do anything as such.

So, if you walk away then life will return to "normal" for you as the thought of Mr.X will no longer be uppermost in your mind.

Line 12.4 suggests standstill changing to action, the tide is finally turning.

Line 12.6 indicates again that the standoff can end if you do something about it, its all up to you, yet again.

Hex 8 as you know is about union, but Mr.X is the rallying point, and it is up to you to join the club but the warning is that if you don't bother, or sit there hesitating forever and a day then your final chance will be gone for good.

 

[arabella]

I've given a lot of thought to Meng's comment about the dream being a key, anything particular in the dream that I noticed in the detail. Within the imagery of the dream -- besides the fact that it's pure fiction, has never happened, and is really almost unimaginable coming from the person in question -- the most outstanding symbolism to me is that he seemed to behave spontaneously, whereas he is generally very studied and proper -- and he seemed genuinely happy, whereas he has been very pensive and bound to the past in sadness. Of course, those aren't constant, otherwise I wouldn't even consider a relationship as a possibility. But he always seems to revert to that sort of emotionally "frozen" affect and a good laugh doesn't last long. In this dream, he seems to have broken through that and seems to be more fully himself, more in control of what he wants to do to make himself happy rather than preoccupied with the past. That was the really shocking part of the dream, to see him relaxed and such a brilliant smile.

As things stand, it's kind of my turn to be reticent these days, because I'm feeling very much shut down. So I'd have to rev myself up again to make contact, and as Willow Fox says, that would be the only way. Is there a good question to ask to know if this is even advisable?

 

[meng]

Hi Arabella,

That is precisely the sort of thing I was referring to. This may show or present to you a reality check: Is he able to be the kind of guy who satisfies you? Is it even within him to become this more open and spontaneously joyful guy? If not, is it within you to be happy with him as he is? Can you change him? Can he change you? Can you change yourselves? Do you even want to? It's not wrong to commit to being the way you are, either of you. Neither is it wrong to choose to adapt and forgo certain pleasures for the sake of enjoying other kinds of relational joy.

It's easy to adjust to what you know your dealing with. It's what we don't know that rattles us. Dreams during these kinds of tied together relational/psychological standstills have always been like finding a stone fishing net weight in a river bed of stones. But only when recognizing what you're trying to tell yourself.

On a side note, and not intended to tie into the readings so much; my own observation is that you do present quite a lot of personal power. This guy may just be intimidated, and you may be touching on something he himself isn't sure of. Maybe, if you want him to be more like he was in your dream, try being more like you were, too.

 

[arabella]

You know Meng, that is BRILLIANT. Because that's probably a side of myself that I rarely show, being a relatively "executive" type of person. Thinking how to organise, how to structure and run the meeting. I think you've hit it on the head. It is intimidating perhaps. My kids [mostly grown now] once told me, if I approached men the way I treat kids and puppies I'd be fine. They probably mean the same thing. It will take some practice, but worth a try. Thanks.

 

[arabella]

Also, Meng, all the questions you pose at the beginning of your post are things that have occurred to me at various moments and are entirely legitimate, no doubt. The frustrating thing is that I can't answer most of them with any certainty, for the mere reason that I've never gotten to know this man well enough to be sure what IS his personality on an enduring basis and what is related to the sense of grief he has felt, or to the immediate circumstances of being on his own again after a lengthy marriage that ended tragically. I don't know how things may settle out for him, with or without any connection we might have.

So it is all about adaptability in any case, and I do get the sense that this is his short suit --and my long suit. Almost no matter what happened, I would have to be the one to adapt. I just don't know yet to WHAT, since our relationship isn't that developed. It could just turn out to be an impossible setup anyway, once I know him better. For some reason, I want to know him better -- whatever we can call that instinct -- because in this case, the intuition to dive in could be about serendipity or self-destruct and I guess I won't know until I know.

I suppose the only question I can answer right now is whether I want to leap into the fray once more because, for whatever reason you sense these things, I believe Willow Fox is exactly dead on with her assessment as well. If I don't do something quite soon, this is game, set, match.

Thanks for that Willow Fox. You never mince words, which I appreciate. I get so tied up in deliberating and strategising sometimes it takes a hand grenade to get me to make up my mind and just MOVE. Good that you are there to light the fuse. After all, what's the worst that can happen? Some humiliation, embarrassment, disappointment? Not exactly a volcano, an earthquake, nor an oil slick about to demolish the coastline of the United States. Guess I'll live.

 

[arabella]

OK, so I went forward and extended an invitation to a dinner at my place, Wednesday. Been waiting all day for a reply and none is forthcoming. I've asked the IChing for an interpretation of the silence and got: Hex 60.6 changing to Hex 61. I've read a few interpretations in the archives on this site that would seem to indicate he's just closed the situation down and that is the Truth of the matter. However, the situations being read for weren't the same, so maybe doesn't apply. Another variation on this casting indicated that he may be resolving his limitations about this relationship and will come to some revelation about his inner feelings. Or none of the above? Is this likely to get resolved in time for dinner on Wednesday? I won't buy the roast yet anyway.

 

[meng]

Ti Ming and the internet seem to make poor companions. I've always found email to be the most easily misunderstood means of (mis)communicating for time sensitive situations. Even leaving an invitation on the phone can lead to big misunderstandings, and dig a knot in a rope even deeper (60.6), despite very good intentions.

I think the dinner invitation is a nice idea, but I think it would be best to discuss it in r/t voice to voice, and there should be no room for stalling (12) in that. You would deserve a straight yes or no answer.

Also a reminder that 61 allows some time before any judgment is made.

 

[willowfox]

I've asked the IChing for an interpretation of the silence and got: Hex 60.6 changing to Hex 61.

It suggests that your little talk the other day upset "Mr.Y are you not answering", so he's stubbornly holding out by refusing to contact. Pig headed springs to mind.

Get a frozen pizza and a tin of garden peas, if he doesn't show then you can eat it later or whatever.

 

[arabella]

Thanks Meng and Willow Fox. In any case, I suppose he's making his choice, making his opinion known. It's not the type of behavior I could countenance for the long haul, so that speaks volumes. Game, set. match. Clears the court anyway.

 

[Trojina]

Why even bother anymore ? If you have to work this hard to figure out if someone wants to be with you...if they can't let you know then yes i think you had it right with your initial interpretation of 2.3.

Of course you deeply do not want to let it go...hence the dream. We can do what we think is best when awake but the desires remain of course and they show up in dreams.

I think it likley the dream gave you something to grasp at...a reason for not letting go...because you don't want to. Any emotion we repress in the day comes into our dreams. It needed alot of control for you to make a decision to let go...alot of control...and the inverse of that, when your conscious mind is off duty, would give you a heck of a powerful dream. That doesn't mean the dream itself is a reason to go on with him IMO

I suggest it is the best thing to let him go..but don't be too strict with yourself about putting on a brave face or telling your self you don't mind and its okay etc etc the more you do this the 'bigger' the dreams will be. I see this self control relating to 60.6 actually. Obviously its not okay and you won't feel okay about it for a while..and theres no reason you should expect yourself to feel okay about it

Anyway other people can say 'let go' as much as they like...you won't until you are ready to anyway

 

[arabella]

Too true Trojan. It's one thing to "see" all kinds of possibility -- but if it's absolutely a thing of imagination, there is no point. I had the feeling the dream was just a nasty trick of the mind. I feel certain now that is the case. It is all just too much work, as you say. If it's that difficult to get someone to respond, even if they finally did -- what has been won? Life is too short to waste more time. Time to find someone who's alive and kickin.

 

[lucia]

There's been plenty of participation in this thread and I'm an exhausted shift worker lol... but whenever I have received 2.3 it is a done deal so to speak. Like a little package tied up with string it is complete in itself and if no-one else appreciates it it doesn't matter because YOU have got "somethng" out of it.

Just a thought because I have had this line a few times over the years and in my journals it has always played out the same way.

Lucia

 

[arabella]

I have learned something Lucia, as you say, if not about grieving men, at least about myself and the need to not be "fooled" into feeling sorry for someone instead of benefiting from a two-way exchange. It's fine to be needed in the off moments, but it's not a world. I can't say it was a waste of time to understand this. It's a lesson I should have taken on board ages ago: that one whole relationship takes two whole people; whereas, I'm dealing with half a person with a ghost looking over his shoulder. It's all a bit eerie when you consider his deceased wife is still his life companion two years on. Something tells me now that's not likely to ever change. Especially knowing you're tired Lucia, thanks for putting your oar in the water.

 

[Trojina]

There's been plenty of participation in this thread and I'm an exhausted shift worker lol... but whenever I have received 2.3 it is a done deal so to speak. Like a little package tied up with string it is complete in itself and if no-one else appreciates it it doesn't matter because YOU have got "somethng" out of it.

Just a thought because I have had this line a few times over the years and in my journals it has always played out the same way.

Lucia

hang on...just before you go to bed...cos you said 'like a little package tied up with string' i was wondering if you were referring to 2.4 rather than 2.3 ?

Have a nice kip

 

[meng]

Having just gone through a strikingly similar ordeal, which included both the 12.5,6 reading and the passionate dream, I was able to recognize the truth of the matter in a small and unusual detail in the dream, and could reason to my satisfaction why and how things got to this point. For me it presented a huge relief, just by understanding the situation I was dealing with. The form of the relationship was able to then adjust and move on to something peaceful and communicative, and still satisfying. Even if the dream was wishful thinking, that doesn't change anything. Was the wish attainable or not, and how or how not, were what mattered. And more importantly, it helped to recreate conditions (12.6) we're both comfortable with.

Another recent occasion involved a fallout with a real time female friend, due to confusion compounded by leaving emails and phone messages, rather than talking voice to voice in real time, where the time sensitive misunderstanding probably never would have arisen.

These aren't isolated examples by any means. They happen all the time, except only few are able to see what their dream is telling them, and their breakups are typically loaded with hurt feelings and misunderstandings.

 

[lucia]

Isn't it weird it looks like I'm logged in but I'm not.... my puta (doble sentido ) must be attached to the site...... not quite kipping yet Trojan

No, I did mean 2.3 - it is just my choice of words but ever since I had my thoughts a while back about 2.3 I have always suspected a connection between 2.3 and 2.4 - I reckon 2.3 is wrapped in transparent paper (for the querent at least) whereas 2.4 is a bit like my mum's xmas present wrapping - 10 layers, lots of sellotape and a ton of bubble wrap just in case..

Now eat and kip..

L

 

[arabella]

Yes, Meng, I feel like we've been friends all along, meeting here and there along the way. No need to ditch that. And it is a big relief realising I don't have to work at this anymore. Haha. Like I was ever required to do it! Putting that "what if?" feeling away and shutting the drawer leaves this in a place where I can stop mulling it over and go on to something else now. And this time, something with real possibility, not a guessing game.

 

[meng]

yup

 

[Trojina]

Isn't it weird it looks like I'm logged in but I'm not.... my puta (doble sentido ) must be attached to the site...... not quite kipping yet Trojan

No, I did mean 2.3 - it is just my choice of words but ever since I had my thoughts a while back about 2.3 I have always suspected a connection between 2.3 and 2.4 - I reckon 2.3 is wrapped in transparent paper (for the querent at least) whereas 2.4 is a bit like my mum's xmas present wrapping - 10 layers, lots of sellotape and a ton of bubble wrap just in case..

Now eat and kip..

L

Thanks...but er when you wake up would you care to say more about how you see 2.3 ?

I had 2.3 all wrapped up in kings and service and so on...not transparent wrapping paper, I never really got the hang of 2.3 anyway so I'd love to hear more..if there is more ?

 

[meng]

Arabella, even though you didn't receive 5 as an answer, it seems you've been doing do a lot of waiting, so I share this Wilhelm quote from 5.

It's only when we have the courage to face things exactly as they are, without any sort of self- deception or illusion, that a light will develop out of events, by which the path to success may be recognized. This recognition must be followed by resolute and persevering action. For only the man who goes to meet his fate resolutely is equipped to deal with it adequately. Then he will be able to cross the great water - that's to say, he will be capable of making the necessary decision and of surmounting the danger.

 

[ginnie]

Been waiting all day for a reply and none is forthcoming. I've asked the IChing for an interpretation of the silence and got: Hex 60.6 changing to Hex 61.

Maybe he has bad memories connected with dinner parties. Gee, what a lot of lousy baggage ...

I would also be interested in anything more you might say about H2.3.

If you are a strong, take-charge kind of woman, do you think you might have to 'tone it down' sometimes; otherwise men might feel tongue tied around you? I ask this question in all seriousness. I don't mean playing dumb or acting silly so that the man feels he's the intelligent one. No, I just mean holding what we were just going to say within ourselves, letting a space happen, so that the other one can feel free to come forward on his own, to volunteer something of himself?

 

[arabella]

Yes, Ginnie, that is EXACTLY what I have to do. And I think not just in conversation, but all the way round. I think, to not be so anxious to contribute EVERYTHING, but leave spaces that have to be filled by somebody else -- or not. This is a big lesson of this relationship. I'm thinking he'll feel better because I'll help him. Maybe he'd just rather help himself. Maybe even he'd feel better thinking I needed something from HIM. Time to leave a gap, whatever that may bring, as Meng is saying. Pull back and wait with a purpose that waiting is significant and leaves room for the Universe to speak -- whether he speaks or not -- which I tend to doubt. But at least I can let it go.

 

[meng]

I think, to not be so anxious to contribute EVERYTHING, but leave spaces that have to be filled by somebody else -- or not. This is a big lesson of this relationship. I'm thinking he'll feel better because I'll help him. Maybe he'd just rather help himself. Maybe even he'd feel better thinking I needed something from HIM. Time to leave a gap, whatever that may bring, as Meng is saying. Pull back and wait with a purpose that waiting is significant and leaves room for the Universe to speak -- whether he speaks or not -- which I tend to doubt. But at least I can let it go.

I admire how you can extract useful meaning from things others say. Many tend run away as soon as someone implies that work, change and effort are what Yi requires. That's like the "guts' in the hex 7 amplifier, to rally force, and being willing to go into action, not just have it handed to you. :bows:

At the same time, we A type personalities usually find it difficult to do nothing. And I think the Yi REALLY picks up on that, since its propensity is toward balance, and would note something out of balance, and excerpt force, (which we see as resistance to our will) in the other direction. One of LiSe's line 3.. escapes me now, says - when a reed is too much one way, you have to bend it extra in the other direction, to make it straight.

The same for a very timid person, but it would be working the opposite direction: twice as hard for them to come out of their shell. Very few that would understand, etc.

It's tempting not to wax poetic on this, because it's so beautiful, that Yi chooses to zone in so accurately... we have to take time to see it sometimes. Not always with great import, but missing the return by being off the beaten track surely can not be the way.

Premonition or wishful thinking?

..is a great question.

 

[arabella]

Right Meng, you've obviously been there and wear the T shirt too! If you are a person who has always succeeded from generating energy, even if it's to empower other people, it's not always apt to apply that in personal relationships. [Especially so if you're a woman and turn out to be intimidating]. That's one level anyway.

The next level is probably beyond that where, no matter who you are or what you've done, a certain sincere humility is appropriate. People who are students of the IChing tend to defer, sooner or later, to the necessity to approach the Oracle with humility. The purpose of that, I would think, is to learn to approach life that way. And offering to be the "servant" of somebody, to offer endless sympathy, isn't always the most humble idea. And, in this case, it was apparently unwelcome or maybe seen as condescending? Sometimes the humble thing is to allow people in pain to be unapproachable, to leave them to their struggles and commitments, even if they can't explain them to you. They don't have to.

Anyway, I think this is the situation I'm in today. I've missed and caught the signals a couple times and got some things twisted. But it's loud and clear now.

I suppose what remains is for Lucia to wake up and tell us about her readings on 2.3 and 2.4. This appears to be where I had it straight, then second-guessed myself and went back off the track after the "dream sequence" and I won't want to make THAT mistake again in future.

 

[arabella]

Since we have yet to hear from Lucia, I thought I'd muddle on here and share the casting I'd just done, asking the IChing to explain what has brought this man to a place where he doesn't answer at all? In the back of my mind I'm thinking, he's such a proper person, he must at least feel pretty rude.

I got Hexagram 47.4.5, Oppression, changing to Hexagram 7, The Army. So, it is utter exhaustion and grieving, isn't it? Hilary's commentary even equates Hex 7 with grieving, paired with Hex 8, Unity -- I suppose if you pull yourself out of the grieving state and can move forward.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm NOT contemplating falling back into the trap. My attempts to fix this are at an end. But I do think this casting explains his limitations, alluded to in the Hex 60.5 reading that began all of this and apparently those limitations have utterly exhausted him and even the outcome is grieving, which doesn't hold a great deal of promise -- for either of us. It's a waste of a great person in my opinion in what appears to be a downward cycle. But there is evidently nothing that can be done.

 

[maremaria]

asking the IChing to explain what has brought this man to a place where he doesn't answer at all? In the back of my mind I'm thinking, he's such a proper person, he must at least feel pretty rude.

I got Hexagram 47.4.5, Oppression, changing to Hexagram 7, The Army. .

I think Yi says, he is trying to organize his life, to cope with those feelings, his grief. Its a rather solitary process and sometimes outsider push someone to pull him/herself out but its not always right. You don't actually pull your self outside the "grief" space you live it till all those feeling exhaust themselves. How much it takes ? it depends on the person and the relationship with the departed one. This is what line 4 says, i think.

LiSe,

Coming gently, gently. Confined in a metal chariot. Distress. There is completion (or: distress comes to an end).
When the mind is not free from fears, wishes, fixed ideas or other obstructions, then thinking is dragging. A free mind finds the right choice, decision or action without much effort. So make it free, hand all your ideas over to the gods, and start living. But if you cannot, then do your best - you will also reach your goal, with hard work and later, but an honest effort will get its reward too.