Qi Gong and the Yi Ching

[pantherpanther]

I think I would suggest looking at Qigong as the great-grandchilld of the Yijing, and the great-great-grandchild of the Zhouyi, with nearer relatives being Yinyang Jia, Han Yiweishu, Daoist Xiangshu, Daojiao (religious Daoism), Neidan (Inner Alchemy), TCM and Taiji.
Being a post-Mao era practice it's a pretty recent descendant. Even when it borrows from Bagua it borrows from much more recent elaborations. One thing to remember about the great-great-grandchild - there is only an average of 1/16 of the great-great-grandparent's DNA remaining. For the most part you will be hard pressed to find any undiluted (or unpolluted) Zhouyi imagery at all.

I think "qigong" practices preceded the Zhouyi. Perhaps the adepts learned to dance the nine numbers of the Turtle before they began to make records of them. Daoist adepts of inner alchemy mastered cosmic number-sound laws. A sophisticated energy map of meridians, vital organ spheres, and deep qi channels inside the body was developed before the Zhouyi .The ability to observe and codify the cycles of nature was nearly universal in early human cultures .

 

[bradford]

I think "qigong" practices preceded the Zhouyi. Perhaps the adepts learned to dance the nine numbers of the Turtle before they began to make records of them. Daoist adepts of inner alchemy mastered cosmic number-sound laws. The ability to observe and codify the cycles of nature was nearly universal in early human cultures .

With logic like that you could claim that Qigong was first practiced by Picaya, the first chordate to move Qi around by wiggling.

 

[pantherpanther]

The knowledge of astronomical phenomena in ancient cultures suggests that the internal awareness of energy channels and inner body spirits needed for neidan practice was present. Mircea Eliade cautions not to date a proto-historical science like alchemy from written texts. We have evidence in Ice Age Paleolithic art dating back 35,000 years in Siberian geometric carvings (Meander Diagram) and in Neanderthal cave paintings in France where the ribs of horses marked lunar cycles .
Druidic,Mayan, Vedic, Greek, and Egyptian cultures understood solar,lunar, and eclipse cycles,the timing of solstice and equinox alignments, and in some cases the twenty-six thousand year cycle of the precession of the equinoxes.The Yellow Emperor’s Classic on Internal Medicine (Neijing) and the later Treatise on Difficult Issues (Nanjing) make the reasonable claim of passing down a much more ancient knowledge. They are based on cosmology,the macrocosm and relate it to the microcosm.

A colleague of mine at Penn, Schuyler Cammann, the Western scholar who did extensive research into the origins of the hetu and luoshu, came to accept the probability that at an earlier date the Dragon Writing and Turtle Charts were a single Thirteen Number diagram in a diamond shape that may have been imported from Babylonia. In this diamond chart the five central numbers, also related to five colors and the five planets that were counted on five fingers, were surrounded by 8 outer numbers.

Bart Jordan, a musician, went further in claiming these Babylonian numbers were based on musical scales that defined early human perception of cosmic rhythms. Jordan also believed the Shang people in China used trigrams in circles (found on oracle turtle shells) to represent planetary motions. He claims they are based on a musical scale derived from older west Asian peoples. ( Girardot in Myth and Meaning in Early Taoism, 1988, first suggested this.)

An awareness of a field permeating all of Nature, and organized in any number pattern (as yin-yang or Five Phase) leads to the suppostion that some were experiencing the energy field within their body. We can study how to alter body vibrations and states by experimenting with different tones of voice and number patterns with any qualified teacher. Perhaps our ancestors did so, too. The common practice, in the school of Zou Yan by 350 bc., of linking numbers to musical tones to directions and colors and planets, in effect relies on an ancient theory of chronobiology. This theory in China linked human biological circadian rhythms with planetary rhythms .

A set of eight turtle shells (resembling the eight outer numbers of the luoshu Turtle diagram) were found placed above the grave of a neolithic man. His skeleton had no head, suggesting a special burial ritual. The shells had written characters on them similar to Shang script, including the numerals 8 and 20, and nearby were small pebbles possibly for counting, as well as bone flutes. They were dated to 8,600
years ago, five thousand years older than the Shang dynasty (1700-1100 bc).

 

[meng]

A set of eight turtle shells (resembling the eight outer numbers of the luoshu Turtle diagram) were found placed above the grave of a neolithic man. His skeleton had no head, suggesting a special burial ritual. The shells had written characters on them similar to Shang script, including the numerals 8 and 20, and nearby were small pebbles possibly for counting, as well as bone flutes. They were dated to 8,600
years ago, five thousand years older than the Shang dynasty (1700-1100 bc).

That's really interesting, considering 8.6 changing to 20. Maybe the ritual wasn't to honor but to disgrace?

 

[pantherpanther]

That's really interesting, considering 8.6 changing to 20. Maybe the ritual wasn't to honor but to disgrace?

I wonder why no head. It could have been a heroic death in battle , etc.

I wonder what the music might have been, because there were flutes. Daoist alchemical adepts danced a zig-zag pattern, the “9 Paces of Yu”, over the luoshu magic square as a ritual to transcend time. (The 9 Paces of Yu was highly recommended by Midaughter as a Solstice dance this week . ) Daoists literally danced back through the numbers as agents of Time cycles to open the central axis of eternal time, ruled by Saturn- 5 in the center. The same magic square pattern was called the “Sigil of Saturn” by medieval Qabbalists to ritually open the doorway to the stars and timeless Ain soph.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigil_(magic)

 

[robertluoshu]

The Lo Shu and the Steps of Yu

PantherPanther,

I have always imagined the Nine Steps of Yu as a tracing of how larger magic squares grow in the Luo Shu format.

In other words, a tracing of the numerical sequence begining with one, in any larger order magic square in the Luo Shu format, would yield the same pattern, known as the Knight's Tour.

Below is an example of the 11x11 Magic Square in the Luo Shu format. I am imagining that the Knight's Tour is an expanded form of the "Nine Steps of Yu".

Therefore, the "Nine Steps of Yu" or "Dance of Yu" may be the formula of how to construct a larger order magic square, in the Luo Shu format.

I am interested in more about what you may know about the "Steps of Yu", thank-you for the posting.

robertluoshu at www.luo-shu.com

 

[bradford]

I wonder why no head. It could have been a heroic death in battle , etc.

Many to most of Chinese words have several equally valid meanings (called polysemy).
Head is only one of Shuo's meanings. Another is leader, or leadership; another is guiding
principles, or priorities.
Head is a bad translation at 08.6 (but it's even worse at 01.7).

 

[pantherpanther]

Many to most of Chinese words have several equally valid meanings (called polysemy).
Head is only one of Shuo's meanings. Another is leader, another is guiding principles.
Head is a bad translation at 08.6.

Bradford,
I hadn't in mind Meng's interesting suggestion that the Hexagrams 8 and 20 might be relevant because the numbers 8 and 20 were reported as being on the shells. My question is why no head . I don't know if there was a cultural and ritual significance with this burial being with no head. Perhaps the head was simply not available. There are "pebbles" mentioned near the body. Small piles of ‘game-stones’ in Shang tombs were always placed near the head or by right shoulder, perhaps to be nearthe brain or the ‘game-playing’ hand. Other similarly-aged piles ofsmall stones—shaped like modern Chinese go stones—have beenfound on the ground in Siberia. Perhaps there was a head when the body was buried and the "pebbles" had been near it? Others might have removed the head and scattered the stones.

Elsewhere, in other cultures, there are burial sites that involved sacrifice and so on. I am not aware of others offering an explanation in this case. By the way,there are burial sites from 200,000 years ago that indicate there was some form of ritual/religion which we know nothing about. Current excavations in Jordan or Israel reported recently in the NYTimes at a site that was inhabited for 790,00 years have shown that 100,000 years ago there was an ordered division of work space and living space.

 

[pantherpanther]

robertluoshu,
I noted your comments and diagram. I will reply, but for now have you read the work of Schuyler Cammann ? There are many articles over the years on magic squares by him available via JStor, plus some books in the marketplace An interesting article by Cammann in Chinese Ideas About Nature and Society.: Studies in Honour of Derk BoddeCharles Le Blanc et al editors,Hong Kong University Press, 1987
Also, you might find Midaughter's several recent posts to her Yahoo group on the Pace of Yu of interest.

 

[pantherpanther]

The luoshu magic square (see image) has a sequence called the “9 Paces of Yu”
The pattern has even-odd numbers, which convert into two fire trigrams (yang-yin-yang) surrounding an axial water trigram (yin-yang-yin). All of these symbols may be aassociated with the alchemical process, offering circumstantial evidence that the hetu-luoshu cosmic number diagrams were created by alchemical adepts at a much earlier date than Chinese written texts reveal , and that they are related to harmonizing planetary forces with Saturn ( 5 - Water- Kidney) at the center.
View attachment 686

 

[robertluoshu]

Schulyer Cammann and the Lo Shu

pantherpanther,

Yes, I am very familair with Schulyer Cammann. I consider Cammann, Lars Berglund, Sir Joseph Needham, Alfred Schinz, and Marie Louise von Franz instrumental in my research involving the Lo Shu.

Cammann wrote about the Chinese cosmology and the TLV Bronze mirror that parallels Needham's comments on the liubo divinition game board found in tombs of the royal emperor. Both have established the link to the mathematics of the gnomon.

Cammann attempted to make the connection of the Ming Tang Temple, the Lo Shu, and the TLV Bronze mirror. He was way ahead of his time(joke). Below is an image of the Lo Shu grid overlaid onto the Jade bi disc and the TLV Bronze Mirror. Alfred Schinz, The Magic Square (1996), was the first to make the visual relationship with the bi disc.

I have applied Schinz's tehnique to the TLV Bronze mirror and the Mayan Calendar. All three, the bi disc, the TLV Mirror, and the Mayan Calendar incorporate precision mathematics in the design in order to incorporate the square and circle (yin/yang) concept. Also, because of the incorportation of the Lo Shu, all three could be considered models of Time (as in the calendar) and Space (as in the Pythagorean Theorem or Right Angle Triangle Theorem).

The cross of odd numbers in the Lo Shu represent Heaven and form the "Ya" cartouche. This cruciform shape from the Lo Shu was matematically incorporated into the Jade bi disc, TLV Mirror and Mayan Calendar. Berglund has discussed this concept in his book The Secret of the Luo Shu.

I would like to refer interested readers to my web page on the subject:

http://luo-shu.com/book/part_one/chapter_nine/Bronze_mirrors_TLV_mirrors_Han_dynasty

You will notice at the bottom, the page has been dedicated to Schulyer Cammann.

and

http://luo-shu.com/book/part_one/chapter_six Explains the Ya cartouche as the "real lost symbol".

Thank-you for the references on Midaughter's posts and Cammann. I was not aware that he published a book and always felt that he had the material to produce a remarkable book.

I am so impressed that you knew him!! Were his theories accepted at the time or was he considered "out of the mainstream" and not taken seriously. Very few people have followed up his work, and not until many years later, and it includes a very small group.

A Pleasure and Merry Christmas,

robertluoshu at www.luo-shu.com

references:
Lars Berglund, The Secret of the Luo Shu 1976 (Sweeden)
Alfred Schinz, The Magic Square, p. 73
Joseph Needham, Science and Civilisation in China, Vol. 3 p. 302 - 313
Marie Louis von Franz Number and Time
Schulyer Cammann "Islamic and Indian Magic Squares" History of Religions vol.8 No.3 (Feb. 1969)
Schulyer Cammann "The "TLV" Pattern on Cosmic Mirrors of the Han Dynasty" Journal of American Oriental Society, Vol 68, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec. 1948)

 

[pantherpanther]

Robert,
Ki Cammann was a friend and colleague. My field was the Middle East and SEAsia. He had considerable knowledge of Islamic art, as Persian carpets (which he related to the symbolism of the Chinese Emperor's robe, which he wrote about.) He had travelled in Inner Mongolia in the 30's and wrote a book on that. During World War II he served in Mongolia for the US, government intelligence.

You probably have these , although there are others ( several hundred,as I recall) by Ki : The Magic Square of Three in Old Chinese Philosophy andReligion,’ History of Religions, Vol. 1 (Summer 1961), pp. 37-80 andits update, ‘Some Early Chinese Symbols of Duality;’ History ofReligions, Vol. 24, No. 3 (Feb. 1985), pp. 213-254; ‘ChineseHexagrams, Trigrams and the Binary System,’ Proceedings of theAmerican Philosophical Society, Vol. 135, No. 4 (Dec. 1991) pp. 576-589, and a summation just before his death in 1991, ‘The Origins ofCircular Trigrams in Ancient China,’ in the Museum of Far EasternAntiquities Bulletin (Stockholm), Vol. 62 (1990), pp. 185-212 . JSTOR may not have listed later ones yet, if they exist.

A recent work on magic squares (Legacy of the Luo Shu: The Mystical, Mathematical Meaning of the Magic Square of Order Three by Frank J. Swetz) uses only early Cammann, despite being published in 2002.

I recall he argued against Hellmut Wilhelm’s theory that the hexagrams were invented before the trigrams. I don't know if archaeological work has given support to his views or Wilhelm's?

 

[robertluoshu]

A recent work on magic squares (Legacy of the Luo Shu: The Mystical, Mathematical Meaning of the Magic Square of Order Three by Frank J. Swetz) uses only early Cammann, despite being published in 2002.

pantherpanther:

I am familiar with the book and have interviewed Dr. Swetz (another Pennsylvannian). The book is an excellent source to follow the cultural history of the Luo Shu, but does not make any references to the Luo Shu and its association with:

• the Pythagorean Theorem (in fact, Swetz emphatically states Pythagoreans did not use Magic Squares - I disagree)
• the mathematics of the gnomon
• the numbers of the calendar
• higher order magic squares
• a formula to generate higher order magic squares
• the jade bi disc and the TLV Mirror
• the quincunx pattern
• illuminated manuscripts and art from the early Byzantine period
• temple design

It is a good introductory book to the Lou Shu, but one will have to dig much deeper to get the real meaning, which still is not totally understood.

Persian carpets are notorious for having Luo Shu symbolism. The quincunx pattern, the cruciform shape of odd numbers (the Ya cartouche), the carpenter's square, and cycles of seven are ever-present. The symbolism is all around us.....

pantherpanther, your exptertise would be appreciated on another thread:

The Origin of Circular Trigrams, anything to do with: The Luo Shu and the Diagram Preceding and Succeeding Heaven (post #39)?

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=8562&page=4

Does this posting make any sense?

robertluoshu

reference Legacy of the Luo Shu, Frank Swetz (2002) p. 81

 

[pantherpanther]

Robert,
The Origin of Circular Trigrams, anything to do with: The Luo Shu and the Diagram Preceding and Succeeding Heaven (p39)?..does this posting make any sense?[ /I]
I haven't the article on hand and my knowledge of Ki's work and of the subject is very limited and partial. We usually discussed his ideas in relation to my own areas of interest, which was always stimulating for me. I later got to know a Taoist priest who was also a lineage master. I was more interested in his ritual and energy practices than academic research,not knowing the Chinese language. I have studied Middle Eastern,Iranian and Indian texts in the original languages but not the Chinese. Much of the research you are doing I am not qualified to discuss, although I can learn more.

I have been studying the I Ching for 50 years but not paid much attention to the scholarly research beyond comparing translations. I didn't feel a need to. I recall reading Jung's preface to Wilhelm's I Ching and realizing "he didn't get it." He got part of it, of course. He was brilliant and he developed a system, which was useful for him but not scientific. I value his numerous scholarly works. I like some of his pupils' work, as Frantz's.

I had some partial notes, which are more tentative questions for myself than researched views. They aren't Ki's views as far as I know. They may relate to your query . Maybe you will tell me if they don't make sense! Over many years I have met individuals from various traditions whose practices may have had formal differences, but we could relate and communicate very well on a common level beyond forms. I respect scholarly work, but I am also interested in "what works" for me.

In the oral tradition , the numbers 1 through 5 in the Dragon chart represent the formless stage of primal energy generation known as Early Heaven, the numbers 5 through 9 the cycle of qi manifesting in the physical plane or Later Heaven. The number 10 (sharing the center with number 5) is the number of completion.

The Dragon diagram's partner , the Luoshu ( “Turtle Writing”) is perhaps the oldest magic square diagram known . It has nine numbers shown as similar dots, in which the three numbers of any line add up to fifteen. This chart was used to generate calendrical calculations for daily, seasonal and annual cycles.( It was used to lay out the plan of the Emperor’s private temple, known in the Han Dynasty (3rd cen. b.c.) as the Ming Tang or 9 Halls Palace plan - Cammann, Magic Square of Three,1960).

The interaction of the two mandalas was represented in popular culture by the image of a snake coiled on a turtle’s back. The coiled snake may have been the spiraling number sequences of the Dragon Writing imposed on the geometric patterns of the Turtle Chart’s shell.

These number diagrams were converted into the Early Heaven and Later Heaven sets of eight trigrams of the I Ching . The two cosmic number diagrams and their two trigram successors , the Fu Xi and King Wen arrangements constitute a common basis for various areas of Chinese culture - as philosophy, divination, astrology, feng shui, medicine,calendrical calculation, political rulership, military strategy, martial arts,music and alchemical meditation.

RE: Legacy of the Luo Shu: The Mystical, Mathematical Meaning of the Magic Square of Order Three by Frank J. Swetz

The book is an excellent source to follow the cultural history of the Luo Shu, but does not make any references to the Luo Shu and its association with:
the Pythagorean Theorem (in fact, Swetz emphatically states Pythagoreans did not use Magic Squares - I disagree)....
I haven't read Swetz, I simply noted he only used early Cammann. I am surprised he doesn't accept Pythagoras.

I looked at the Rodin Coil material . He didn't seem grounded in experience, notably in regard to his treatment of the enneagram ,which may resemble the Turtle chart but there is more: it actually involves three octaves . Rodin misreads it. When it is danced there are six multiplications:
First Multiplication: 0.142857
Second Multiplication: 0.285714
Third Multiplication: 0.428571
Fourth Multiplication: 0.571428
Fifth Multiplication: 0.714285
Sixth Multiplication: 0.857142
By the way,this correlates with the I Ching model. The knowledge of the octave was developed in China
and later transferred to the West.



The Five Phase and Yin-Yang musical principles ,which divides out into eight tone trigrams includes both cosmic number diagrams. Daoist alchemists added the energy channels in the body and the higher frequencies of the vital organs that relate by harmonic resonance biological, psychological, and spiritual functions. Each level is a higher octave of yin-yang tonal forces of spirit and substance, which successively yield a third tone, which they call the " child" or inner sage. Sound is important for inner cultivation as is movement -inner and/or outer . There are Chinese trained to use qi gong to sing notes from different parts of their body. Christian monks have similar practices.

The pentagon can replicate itself equally in all directions, contract into the microcosm or expand to the macrocosm. The power of 5 is expressed in the Golden Mean as a spiralling constant, with the human orientation of four directions originating from a fifth center. (Schneider, Beginners Guide to Constructing the Universe: The Numbers 1 to 10.)

 

[jesed]

I have applied Schinz's tehnique to the TLV Bronze mirror and the Mayan Calendar.

A little more seriousness would be nice. This is not a "mayan calendar". This is the Mexica (Aztec) Stone of the Sun. Of course, mexicas are not so fashionable as mayans and the 2010, right?


Best wishes

 

[robertluoshu]

Semantics, Jesed?

The Mexica Stone of the Sun depicting the Mayan Calendar, is that more accurate?

When one Googles the term "Mayan Calendar" the image of the Mexica Stone of the Sun is the only image that comes up. Perhaps to us ignorant Americans when we are referring to the image of the Mayan Calendar we really mean the Mexica Stone of the Sun.

But I do believe we are referring to the same thing. If however, I referred to the image as the Mexica Stone of the Sun, I do not believe as many people would make the connection.

I defer to your experitise on the semantics as I know little about the Mexica Stone of the Sun.

Don't mind the correction, but this is no joke. Of course I am trying to be serious, how about commenting more on the content and give a little latitude to a common error?

robertluoshu at www.luo-shu.com

 

[jesed]

Hi

Semantics, Jesed?

This is not something about semantics.

Mayans and Mexicas are very diferent cultures.

Imagine me saying: "I have studied the german Eiffel Tower..."

And if someone said to me "That is no german but french".. would you consider seriously my job if I answer "Semantics. I google and find ...." ?

But I do believe we are referring to the same thing.

Now.. the Mexica calendar is based only in the Sun. The Mayan has 2 strings: the "Haab" (365 days, based on the Sun) and the "Tzolkin" (260 days, based -aparently- on Venus). The combination of Haab and Tzolkin gives a huge scope of time (just like the combination of solar and lunar calendar in China)

Best wishes

 

[jesed]

About the mixture of circle and crux, well that is present all over America.. from the Medicine Weel of Lakotas and other North American cultures (see my avatar here in clarity), to the Mayans and all over mesoamerica.

This fact leads to think of asian (chinesse) influence in America long before Columbus.

 

[waveCT]

qigong origins

I've long been intrigued by a series of rubbings (Karlgren B, Some Early [ie, late Shang] Chinese Bronze Masters: Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities, Bulletin No 16, Stockholm 1944: pp 4-7), which appear to my untrained eye to resemble qigong postures. I understand the spirit-like figure above the figure with raised arms is usually construed as 'child': but ...

Any more experienced heads care to comment?

 

[Sparhawk]

Catching up here after a few weeks away from the forum.

Robert,
Ki Cammann was a friend and colleague. My field was the Middle East and SEAsia. He had considerable knowledge of Islamic art, as Persian carpets (which he related to the symbolism of the Chinese Emperor's robe, which he wrote about.) He had travelled in Inner Mongolia in the 30's and wrote a book on that. During World War II he served in Mongolia for the US, government intelligence.

Well, I'm most happy that someone else is vindicating the work of Cammann. Every time I brought up his work in discussion, I was shut down with dismissing comments like "the opinions of a grave-robber"... IMHO, the man was certainly on the right track in many of his conclusions, given the amount of information that was available to him at the moment. Thanks for that.

 

[pantherpanther]

Catching up here after a few weeks away from the forum.



Well, I'm most happy that someone else is vindicating the work of Cammann. Every time I brought up his work in discussion, I was shut down with dismissing comments like "the opinions of a grave-robber"... IMHO, the man was certainly on the right track in many of his conclusions, given the amount of information that was available to him at the moment. Thanks for that.

Ki published hundreds of papers. You might be interested to know he described himself as " a practising Christian mystic." I don't think he ever suggested that in anything he published.

 

[Sparhawk]

Ki published hundreds of papers. You might be interested to know he described himself as " a practising Christian mystic." I don't think he ever suggested that in anything he published.

No, I haven't seen that ever suggested in the many articles I have and read by him. The revelation isn't surprising to me though. With the benefit of hindsight, it makes sense.

 

[nicky_p]

Back to the beginning?

Has anyone out there studied Qi Gong or Martilal arts as well, having insight into any connections with the imagery in the commentary on the hexagrams and the imagery invoked by the poses or exercises ....?

Sorry, I came in at the end of the conversation. But I practice a little of yoga and a litlle of yi and as i read your post it reminded me of a correlation I had between tadasana (mountain pose) and hex 52 ken, keeping still, mountain.

It not just the name that holds the similarity for me. The judgement as in Wilhelm is almost instruction on the pose: 'Keeping still. Keeping his back still so that he no longer feels his body.' And the pose itself is like a foundation, stilling yourself and that swirling energy before dipping into a cool stream. It cultivates strength and stability.

Thanks
Nicky