Question about effective questioning

[el_2]

Dear Clarity friends

I recently got 40.4 as an answer to a question and though I can perfectly understand the basic premise of the answer, I do need to determine what the "great toe" stands for in real life.

So, on pondering the issue, I came up with various possibilities. It could refer to people surrounding the issue, preconceived ideas that I have, patterns of behaviour, inner attitudes, all of the above or the Yi might simply be telling me that this is not an issue at all and that I shouldn't get hung up on the idea that there is something problematic to it. Of course, all these categories include different possibilities too.

My next step is to write down anything I feel is relevant to the case and that could be the "great toe" the Yi is referring to. Then I will ask a general question trying to determine what exactly the answer is referring to. But I may in the end need to enquire about each distinct option that I have noted down.

The thing is that this could be a long process, you know, asking "What about A?", "What about B?" and so on. I don't think this would be effective questioning. Does anyone have any suggestions about how to make this more manageable?

el_2

 

[nahalie m]

40.4 could be something that you stick to or stand with that stops you from going over the situation, getting rid of the trouble. Like asking someone close to you a question that would be best answered by someone a further away/less easily accessible or relying on something readily done instead of something that has to be worked on or sticking to a situation instead of moving up to something transformational or looking for help from peers or people close to us when we should ask older/more senior or younger/more junior ones, etc.

A move is called for, a change is suggested.

 

[el_2]

Dear Nahalie

Thanks for replying. The thing is the answer makes perfect sense to me or else I'd have posted in the Shared Readings section.

Having finished writing down all of the different issues that in actual relity 40.4 might be referring to, I now need to explore them. Any one of them could be what is blocking progress one way or another. However, the Yi's answer is either referring to all or most of them, or it is referring to something specific. So my question is, generally, when you are faced with too many options re. what you feel you need to ask, how do you go about it so that you don't have to pose a question about each specific thing?

The Yi has certainly given me food for though but let's not forget the practical application of the answers given. Plus, it isn't like hexagram 40 says, "Go on. Explore things to eternity, you have all the time in the world". At least I don't think so.

What I was hoping for was that someone might suggest a clever or more effective way of asking that has not occurred to me so far. I will ask the Yi for a general, further explanation of 40.4 but I'm afraid that this won't clarify things for me as much as I would like to. Then I may start asking about each different possible explanation I have in mind (time-consuming). But I've noticed here, in the forum, that sometimes people phrase their questions in a way I find very clever (for lack of a better word), they approach an issue from a perspective different than my own that I find can lead to getting more enlightening answers. My mind works in certain (limited) ways, other people's minds work in different ways, so...

el_2

I seriously hope I make sense.

 

[Trojina]

It makes sense, 40.4 has had me thinking exactly the same thing in the past...I often used to wonder what if referred to....was it aperson iin my life, or an attitude and so on.

My current understanding is like Natalie said. Somewhere in the situation you are asking about there must be tension that needs to be released or could quite easily be released. All you need to do is relax your grip since only you are impeding the resolution of this tension. You may have the idea that things cannot be resolved unless it is done one particular way...if you drop that idea then the situation is eased.

I think I recall Bradford talking about it actually being the thumb here rather than the big toe, and the thumb being awkward or in the way in archery when you are trying to release your arrow. So theres a kind of awkwardness about what you're doing I may have got that wrong so its worth looking around under Search to see what he says or having a look at his book .


Anyway what you are asking is is there a good way to go about asking the Yi what it actually meant in 40.4 ? My feeling is perhaps its better not to try to pin it down too much but just let the answer percolate, carry it around for a bit....don't worry about not getting it.

If you feel it urgent because something needs resolving then all you have to do is drop the idea this things has to be resolved in the way you think it ought to be. Very often there is a procedure thing we insist on with 40.4 which is why I think it links well to the shooting of an arrow with the thumb in the way , (not that I know anything about archery !) we want to take a shot, hit a target, release the arrow, resolve things, shoot down troubles but only if we can do it holding the bow this certain way....but all we have to do according to 40.4 I think is not insist on this cak handed way of doing things and its easy peasy.

so I think you may get further by letting the answer percolate in your pocket, (dwell on how you might be feeling something has to be sorted out a certain way) than asking loads more questions in order to pinpoint what the toe is in your situation....well its the way you are holding something and you asked a specific question so what was was the thing you were asking baout...that should lead to the where and how of your holding on....


Of course the idea of it being a thumb makes the line make about 100 times more sense than a toe....afterall we don't do much with our toes, we grip with our thumbs

I think it may be that in Chinese the words for 'toe' and 'thumb' may be interchangeable and thats why most authors seems to use th e word 'toe'. Again check out what Bradford says as that where I got that idea from I'm sure......if I didn't apologies to Brad !

 

[el_2]

Dear Trojan

what you say helps me clarify things a lot, or at least ajdust my attitude to fit the time of hexagram 40.

What prompted me to ask about effective questioning is that this answer made me identify a whole list of issues. It also made me think that the answer was simple but that I wouldn't be able to see the wood for the trees.

I have got 40.4 as an answer once in the past and saw how it played out; that is the reason I feel I have a good grip on the meaning of the line. I had asked about a specific event, a social gathering, and the "great toe" (or "thumb") was a close friend actually. I thought that I needed my friend to be there with me for the whole evening because I didn't know the other people so well, I had actually come to depend on her being there with me , and when she left and I stayed on I got the chance to socialize more and everything fell into place and it was a beautiful evening. So I think the line refers to someone/something you have come to depend on because you think they are an essential element in achieving your goal when they are actually hindering progress in some way. The answer is right before your eyes but you don't see it because of your dependence. I guess the accurate description of that situation and the successful outcome that was predicted by the line have made me more eager than usual to determine what the line is referring to in the present situation.

BTW, I did ask what 40.4 was referring to in my case and the answer was 21.2,3,4 > 26. Ha ha! Chew on it, get to the truth of the matter. Thanks Yi! I was hoping that you would spoonfeed me. (OK. This answer gives some clues, I have to admit).

el_2

 

[twilightshadow]

I like the interpretations presented here. Ive always thought it could mean other things besides a person. One interpretation I found was "walk away from that which hinders you". For me it usually means a bad habit or repeated mistake, that Im somehow sabotaging myself. As for the big toe, I wonder if there was a Chinese version of podomancy, a divination art that uses feet and toes. Or maybe it has something to do with foot binding. Im not sure exactly how it would fit, but I find it interesting that in foot binding they broke all but the big toe. I also agree with Trojan about letting the answer "percolate". I think clarifying questions are best asked after giving the first answer serious thought. You may find the answer was sufficient after all, but even if you need more, time and thought will probably help form the next question better.

 

[nahalie m]

Hi el_2,

It seems I had misunderstood the type of information you requested. If I'm getting it right now there is no way I can help you because I cannot imagine that if you have the general meaning in mind you don't see to what it refers to in your situation. This can happen when there is too much tension, releasing the pressure is then the way out to insight. I think this is also what Trojan was pointing to.
I can imagine this doesn't help there may not be another.

 

[el_2]

Twilightshadow,

my sole but very clear experience with this line, which I described above, tells me that whatever the "great toe" in 40.4 may be referring to, it is something or someone who you assume is necessary to carry you forward in some undertaking (keyword: dependence) but in actual fact is hindering you in some way and you can be without them easily (keyword: easily). In addition, because of your assumption that they are essential to whatever progress you are seeking, it is hard to see how being without their assistance can actually have a liberating effect and promote forward movement. [Maybe 21.2 is echoed here, as I've seen Trojan pointing out in the Shared Readings sections that it 21.2 may mean that you are too close to or immersed in the matter to see the truth of it clearly.] Notice I wrote "something or someone"; I think in some cases the line may be referring to a person, a group of people, a habit, an assumption etc.

You also wrote: "For me it usually means a bad habit or repeated mistake, that Im somehow sabotaging myself." Given the above interpretation of the line, I think this is rather broad. That was my assumption when I cast 40.4 in the present case and this is the reason why I came up with such a long list. This thread has helped me clarify my interpretation. I don't think that anything that may be sabotaging me is 40.4; only those things that fit the criteria I noted above. For instance, our insecurities may be indeed sabotaging us but we don't really take them to be a great vehicle for progress, do we? So I can start elimiating things from the list.

Nahalie,
when I posted the question I was overwhelmed by all the things I'd come up with. So I think I posed the wrong question here. Still I got my answer in a roundabout sort of way; I had 40.4 further clarified. Thanks for your contribution anyway.

el_2

P.S.: I'm a newbie with the I Ching but sometimes even newbies can be confident about interpretation when they see clearly how an answer plays out in real life. The lesson for me here is that confident doesn't have to mean careless, leaving out the nuances as I initially did.

 

[el_2]

Some further thoughts on what 40.4 might mean based on my first experience with the line:

My close friend's presence and company was not totally unnecessary. I did need her because I'd never get to the gathering by myself and because she knew the people better than me. But I needed her to be with me up to a certain point. I remember I had this acute feeling of depending on her. But when she left earlier than me and I decided to stay some more I found out that I wasn't feeling so uncomfortable as I'd though I would. So perhaps the "great toe" is something or someone that was indeed helpful but have served their purpose and are no longer necessary. More than this, they are actually hindering progress. Perhaps it is like using a crutch to aid you with walking because you really need it but you have to discriminate when the crutch is not only no longer necessary for walking but, comfortable as it may be, it is actually preventing you from taking big steps forward.

BTW, I did enjoy my friend's company; friends are not instruments that serve or don't serve purposes. However, great toes are.

el_2

 

[nahalie m]

So perhaps the "great toe" is something or someone that was indeed helpful but have served their purpose and are no longer necessary. More than this, they are actually hindering progress.

Some commentaries will insist on the irregular match between 40.3 et 40.4 based on them being close to each other and of opposite polarity. Hence the attraction and accompanying comfortable feelingn but this is not a natural connexion: 4 "should" relate to 1, not to 3. Hence the hindrance and inadequacy.

This has nothing to do of course with the inherent value, worth, quality of whoever stands for 40.3, needless to say

 

[el_2]

I agree. It makes sense, in the context of my experience at least.