Question about Hex 30

[thedave]

離

lí : to leave; to depart; to go away; from

How was this translated into: "The clinging"?

 

[getojack]

There was an excellent series of threads on the etymology of each of the Chinese characters for the hexagrams of the Yi Jing a while back. You can see the post for Hex. 30 here...

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/xf2/upload/index.php?threads/3138/

My own interpretation is rooted in the concept of dependent arising. With arising comes clinging. They're not really contradictory. Rather, arising and clinging are dependent upon each other for their existence.

 

[thedave]

So Im going to translate the I Ching.

Ah! Thanks gettojack! That will come in handy for my new project!

I've decided I'm going to translate the Iching for my own personal use.
I figure if I want to get to the bottom of the Yi, I should probably study it in the language it was written. Of course it was not written in modern chinese, so some of the essence has been lost, but its as close to the source as I can get. I've already observed several important differences between my translation and Willhelm's. Sometimes I wonder how he came up with his translation! He must know something I don't.
Anyway, it should be a good experience.

I've just completed hexagram 1. Now I am having a bit of trouble with naming this hexagram. The symbol is 乾, which translates in this case as "Qian" which means Male Strength. Now, what is a good word that gathers the concepts of Male, and Strength?
Virility? That would seem to correspond with the traditional translation of "The Creative". Perhaps "virility" contains too much of a sexual connotation to be appropriate, but perhaps that connotation was intended in the original text. When a man is called Virile, he is strong, active, powerful, etc. It seems to fit the concept of "absolute Yang energy" expressed in this Hexagram.

The third sentance of "The Hexagram" says: 乾 為 天 "(Male Strength) (is) (Heaven)" so perhaps that is a clue.

The Judgement
(from my source, these are all written as seperate clauses, or sentances. A series of one character statements.)

Virile.
Superlative.
Joyous.
Advantageous.
Virtuous.

The Image

Heaven acts with Vigor.
君 子 (Junzi) uses inner strength and doesn't rest.

The Lines

9 at the beginning says:
Hidden dragon, do not use.

9 - 2 says:
Seeing the dragon in the field.
Benefit to see the great person.

9 - 3 says:
君 子 (Junzi) finishes the day virile, virile. (The text repeats the character 乾 twice at the end of this sentence.)
Evening - 惕(ti) seems severe. (The character 惕 translates to "fearful, respectful" I don't think that there is an English word that describes this concept completley, but the phrase, "God Fearing" comes to mind. So I will leave it untranslated at the moment.)
No Blame.

9 - 4 says:
Possibly leaping into the Abyss.
No Blame.

9 - 5 says:
Flying dragon in heaven.
Benefit to see the great person.

9 - 6 says:
Proud dragon has regret.

Using(?) 9:
Seeing a group of dragons without a leader. Auspicious.
(I believe Willhelm misses the mark on his translation of this. He translates 首 (shou) as "Head" literally, creating the image of a group of headless dragons, when in this case I think it denotes a symbolic head, or a leader. 首 (shou) can also mean "chief". Also several times in the text the character 見(Jian) appears, which can mean "to see" or "to meet", such as is "Seeing the great person" in which case the connotation is readily percieved in our English thinking brains. "To see" the great person is not just to look upon him, but also to converse and meet with him, just as we would go "see" a doctor, or a friend. So perhaps in this last line, we not only see the dragons without a leader, we meet with them! That would be quite Auspicous! )

I know this translation is very crude, and probably wrong in many places due to my inexperience with the language. But, I'm having fun with this.

 

[hollis]

another 30

Hi Dave, another good thread on 30 :

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=190

 

[lightofreason]

Ah! Thanks gettojack! That will come in handy for my new project!

I've decided I'm going to translate the Iching for my own personal use.
I figure if I want to get to the bottom of the Yi, I should probably study it in the language it was written.

There is NO NEED to understand the YI in Chinese to understand what it represents. It is metaphor for how our brains interprete reality and as such its universal form covers more ground than the specialist, traditional, IC format. (see the old thread on the "Species I Ching" in the archives of this forum)

The brains of the ancients where identical to our brains at the neurological/emotional levels and so their local language were attempts to represent feelings (meanings). Their attempts to describe what they felt were richly metaphoric and made-up of links to local history/legend/myth where these links brought out the universal feelings.

Those feelings are derived from the self-referencing of fight/flight by our brains and so there is isomorphism of yin/yang with flight/fight as there is with the more generic notions of sameness/difference.

We can in fact use our emotions to 'paint a picture' of some event using hexagrams - see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/icplusEProact.html

Chris.

 

[thedave]

Thank you all for you responses.

LoR-

"There is NO NEED to understand the YI in Chinese to understand what it represents. It is metaphor for how our brains interprete reality and as such its universal form covers more ground than the specialist, traditional, IC format."

This, to me, is a very clinical way of looking at the Yi, and I'm not quite sure what exactly it is you are asserting. Universal form?

"Their attempts to describe what they felt were richly metaphoric and made-up of links to local history/legend/myth where these links brought out the universal feelings."

Right. So what I'm doing is trying to understand through studying the original language what exactly they were trying to express metaphorically: the concepts, ideas, and feelings described in each of the Hexagrams. I see no harm in this. While there may not be a need, there most likley is a benefit from the additional understanding without relying on a intermediary.

"Those feelings are derived from the self-referencing of fight/flight by our brains and so there is isomorphism of yin/yang with flight/fight as there is with the more generic notions of sameness/difference."

Ah, I think I understand what you are getting at. Do you mean to say that the hexagram in its universal form, that is just the image of six lines broken and unbroken are all that is needed to interpret a situation? I believe you, for that is exactly what the ancients did, but unfortuneatley that is far above my level of profeciency with the Hexagrams.

For example, the Trigram Kan, or Pit. It is far above my understanding to discern why two Yang lines and a Yin line situated in the manner illustrated by the Trigram would represent "Pit". I have no idea how the ancients came to that conclusion. But I'll take their word for it, and while I am at it, I will try and understand their words in the language in which they were described. Thats all. Is this what you are getting at?

As far as the link, I rarely use the I Ching to tell me how I am feeling, Im usually pretty clear on that. I use it to follow the Tao. If I ask about a situation, I hope it is giving me an objective answer, not one based upon my feelings, although granted, my feelings usually have a role in the situation.

To me the I Ching is an oracle to keep us moving in the Tao. There is something mystical about it that I don't claim to understand. I use it to find the best way to approach a matter, for advice, for comfort, and sometimes to confirm what I already know. When I feel bad about something I'll ask the Yi whats going on, and I often feel a million times better afterwards from the insight I've recieved, even if it is a challenging Hexagram. At least I know what the situation is, and I know how to deal with it to reconnect with the Tao. When we reconnect and walk in the way, even in times of difficulty and sorrow we can retain our inner solace, secure in the fact that the situation is a part of the ebb and flow of existance, and ultimately the way it is meant to be, and above all, things change. To me, this is the hopeful message of the Yi.

Hex 25
INNOCENCE. Supreme success.
Perseverance furthers.
If someone is not as he should be,
He has misfortune,
And it does not further him
To undertake anything.

Sorry if this post is all over the place, but I'm not quite sure if you were asking a question, stating a position, or providing information.