Question about repeated hexagram (41 in this case)

[rabbistoryteller]

Hello to friends of this I Ching Community.

My name is Steve and I am a qigong teacher, T'ai Chi Ch'uan practitioner (Yang Style, Tung or Dong Family) for more than 30 years, rabbi and professional storyteller (I specialize in storytelling about healing and healers).

I was not sure where to place this thread: here or in the Exploring Divination forum.

Since the issue came up from my personal Yijing consultations, I place it here.

However, I am more interested in the phenomenon than the specifics of the reading, although I certainly would appreciate feedback there as well.

Here's what happened:
I have asked three questions in a one week period that were concerned with mental health issues for me.

1) On August 19th, I asked the Yi:

" Which hexagram best represents and advises me on my recent obsessive behavior and study of the YiJing (although I have been using the YiJing for over 30 years, it is only recently that it has become a much more intense area of study for me, so much so that it is taking up a lot more of my time, energy and money)?"

I received (asking with the "16 method" and 16 glass beads of 4 colors) 41:1,2 > 23.

I have a pretty intense case of ADHD and go to a great therapist, who specializes in this (he has it himself) and allows me to use the Yi in our therapy (he loves Jung and although was not familiar with the Yi before he met me, he now really likes it! )

I asked in his office Tuesday, the 25th, 2 )"What hexagram best advises how to use the balance of my therapy session today for the greatest possible good for all?"

Using the 16 beads, I got 41:1 & 6 . 7.

Yesterday, I was feeling an almost debilitating depression brought on partially because of an increasing financial problem in our household, mostly because our microscopic congregation often can't pay me (and so as a recently certified teacher in Spring Forest Qigong [SFQ] I now teach that in various venues including doctor's offices) very much any more and also lots of debt.

I asked the Yi (this times using the traditional 3 coin method, because I was already in full lotus position from a long meditation and did not want to have to unfold, get up and get the beads, which were in my briefcase/back pack at that moment):
3 ) "How can I best deal with this debilitating and immobilizing depression?"

I got 41:6 > 19 !

While, of course, I would appreciate any feedback on the interpretations themselves, I am much more interested here in what people who are experienced think when they get a repeating hexagram like this? Especially in three questions, within one week and the ONLY three questions I asked about basically the same subject (more or less): my mental health (I did ask one other much more general question during the week, which came up 27, no changing lines).

I will tell you one thing: I sure am getting to study, appreciate and become familiar with Hexagram 41 Sun!

Look forward to any discussion, suggestions and sharing of similar experiences. If this discussion tends to be more general and should be in the Exploring Divination forum, I am fine if Hilary moves it there or if I have to delete this one and start the same topic there.

Thanks in advance! :bows:

Blessings,

Steve

 

[my_key]

Hi Steve

Hex 41 can be pointing you to letting go of things. Mental health issues can be a difficult place to step out of and letting go of old thoughts and patterns of behaviour can be a hard first step to take.
With 23 Stripping, 7 Organising /Leading and 19 Arrival of the New I can see these as repeated messages to cast off the shackles and stepping forward into a brave new world.

When I have had repeated Hexagrams (never in such a short space of time and exclusive as you have) they have come as a reiteration of ever increasing volume. The first is a gentle tap on the shoulder and subsequent occurances have increased the urgency and magnitude of the prompting.
I would see 3 in this short space of time as akin to someone shouting with a megaphone directly into your ear.

Best of luck

Mike

 

[rabbistoryteller]

Appreciate the response re Gua 41

Thanks, Mike. That is very helpful. A lot of the theme of my life for the past few months, or even the last year or so, has been a lot about letting go of things, concepts and also fears and habits. It also has seemed to be a lot about a kind of trust, often in spite of how things "look on paper", or in spite of what reason and logic seem to tell me.

I also wonder if a repeated hexagram can sometimes be a the same kind of "reiteration of ever increasing volume", as Mike puts it as response to an unasked or even an "ur-question", i.e. a question that stands behind the question(s) being asked.

Also, I wonder if something can be gleaned from the fact that the first two results had 9 in the first place in common and the second two results had 9 in the 6th place in common.

I also need to learn more about which lines to pay attention to when there is more than one moving line. I have read various opinions. So far, it has seemed to me that it really depends on the situation.

The more I meditate on the Yi, the more I see that it is really about the pattern of change and less about specific translations or interpretations (helpful though they certainly are in many cases). It reminds me of T'ai Chi Pushing Hands (Tui Na), where it is not so much about technique, but rather about feeling the energy, and moving with the flow of energy where it goes.

The changes are always happening. And the YiJing seems to be an accurate picture and indicator of those changes.

Thanks again, Mike! :bows:

Blessings,

Steve

 

[meng]

Hey Steve,

I echo what Mike as already said.

A repeated 41 means self reduction. "There is no I in TEAM", idea. "I" am sacrificed to the collective. Or, in John's words: I must become less that He becomes more. But, there would remain a question in my mind: is Yi saying that 41 is the problem or the solution? Particularly line 6, where you no longer serve yourself but the interests of others. Such self sacrifice! Is there a price to pay for that? Might such a noble desire be a sage's dark and depressing temptation? Maya is full of tricks.

 

[maremaria]

Hi Steve and welcome

I can relate to you regarding repeated 41. Got them recently and still trying to figure out what Yi tells me.

My notes have this phrase, bolded underlined, highlighted “Gua 41 :The individual is reduced to the benefit of the whole.” In a phase that I’m not much willing to increase others but others increase me ( the opposite flow, 42) getting 41 as answer , at a first glance is not the most welcome, lol Anyway, what I keep in mind is pay more attention in that “flow”
Storytelling, teaching, are very 41,imo. Maybe the answer lays somewhere around them. For me are another things but they have common the direction of the flow.

Mike and Meng, I liked a lot your comments. I found them very useful to my “understanding 41” struggle. Thank you both

Maria


Ps. I like your story in the other thread. Would like to ask you to share more stories, but with the 41 reading, I’m not sure if it’s the appropriate time

 

[rabbistoryteller]

Thank you to both Maria and Bruce for your thoughts and ideas. I do find this helpful and I concur to the general idea of decreasing of the "little i".

I already have taken some measures to do this, and it seems to be helping in many areas.

Thanks again. :bows:

Blessings,

Steve

 

[rodaki]

hi Steve

I thought I'd add another echo of 41 here . . not really a full-fledged understanding of it, just an imaginative interpretation of its great image. These are thoughts that are still cooking inside, so they may be somewhat crude yet, but here it goes . .

I believe that 41 gives a great lesson on the ways of giving . .
It paints an image of an offering, of a mountain and of a lake. The offering is performed in two small bowls, one holds a heap of rice, the other a pool of water. But offering them does not mean just leaving them at the altar and walking away . .
What is one to do with them? What is this sacrifice for?
It looks like people give offerings for two reasons; one, to thank for whatever they own by giving up part of it but also in order to seal the good fortune of coming times, to ask for the blessing of the seeds that will bring forth increase (as in the 5th line and the following hex 42) . . but how can one do it with some water and rice?

Two bowls are enough, the image says . . pour some water into the rice but no, not all of it . . To make it a delicious plate to those you are offering you need to keep the right proportion -and besides, you don't want to end up with an empty water bowl and another one overflowing with mushy rice . . that would be an out and out decrease

and what about the somewhat emptied water bowl? It cannot produce new shoots on its own, but before cooking the rice you will give up, keep a couple of grains for that water bowl. Don't let that make you stingy with the water you're giving up, your grains won't appreciate too much water and your rice plate is better when well-cooked

how is that for an image? a full plate of rice and an almost empty bowl of water which keeps the secrets of your next harvest . . I'm sure the gods will be happy, your family too


I think 41 is all about economy (=the law of the house, even of housekeeping)
In tight, economical housekeeping the householders use the crops to feed their family and their animals and to provide offerings to the gods but keep some of it to plant anew. They kill animals for the festivals but keep those that help in farming and reproduction . . . what good is an empty farm and a barren field? what gods would be satisfied by overwhelming sacrifices that rot at the altar while people starve?
Gods and beasts live in the same temple -which ones are we summoning?



p.s.: that was just a little image I've found, thank you for giving me the opportunity to put it in writing -maybe it will be helpful in the making of your own story with it . . You should look in Bradford Hatcher's work too -it's a place of great inspiration


:bows:

 

[my_key]

Steve
I like your question behind the question comment. In my experience the Yi does seem to pick up on this inner most urge more than I'd care to remember. In fact many of the times I've not been able to unravel the hex and changing lines it's because I've been trying to get them to fit the question I asked rather than the question I was not yet able to ask.

It is very much like Pushing Hands - you not only have to feel the answer but you have to feel the right question as well. Being as empty as you can helps a lot here.


Hi Meng

A repeated 41 means self reduction. "There is no I in TEAM", idea. "I" am sacrificed to the collective. Or, in John's words: I must become less that He becomes more. But, there would remain a question in my mind: is Yi saying that 41 is the problem or the solution? Particularly line 6, where you no longer serve yourself but the interests of others. Such self sacrifice! Is there a price to pay for that? Might such a noble desire be a sage's dark and depressing temptation? Maya is full of tricks.

Good question. I like Richmond's comment for 41 - "The crop fails. Look what is growing". When something is diminishing it's only natural for another entity to take up the space left vacant. For that reason the dark recesses of depression and it's associated temptations can be a wonderful gateway.

Mike

 

[meng]

Good question. I like Richmond's comment for 41 - "The crop fails. Look what is growing". When something is diminishing it's only natural for another entity to take up the space left vacant. For that reason the dark recesses of depression and it's associated temptations can be a wonderful gateway.

Mike

Yes indeedy.

i.e. overcome evil with good. But, for every good I think I do, I create room for another evil. How to KEEP that room/bowl empty, without decreasing myself, is the trick of line 6.

A means I employ is to occupy that space with creativity. It isn't important what the outcome of creativity is, it's the process of creating, and being willing to delete the outcome, which can keep the space empty. This is sometimes called Zen. It is also why Tibetan monks destroy their meticulously created sand mandalas.

 

[meng]

A legend involving Bodhidharma is his meeting with Emperor Wu of Liang. Emperor Wu took an interest in Buddhism and spent a great deal of public wealth on funding Buddhist monasteries in China. When he had heard that a great Buddhist teacher, Bodhidharma, had come to China, he sought an audience with him. When they met, Emperor Wu had asked how much karmic merit he had gained from his noble support of Buddhism. Bodhidharma replied, "None at all." The Emperor asked, "Then what is the truth of the teachings?" Bodhidharma replied, "Vast emptiness, nothing holy." So the emperor asked, "Then who are you standing in front of me?" Bodhidharma replied, "I do not know," and walked out.

 

[my_key]

Yes indeedy.

i.e. overcome evil with good. But, for every good I think I do, I create room for another evil. How to KEEP that room/bowl empty, without decreasing myself, is the trick of line 6.

A means I employ is to occupy that space with creativity. It isn't important what the outcome of creativity is, it's the process of creating, and being willing to delete the outcome, which can keep the space empty. This is sometimes called Zen. It is also why Tibetan monks destroy their meticulously created sand mandalas.

I agree. As Yi says it's always advantageous to have a direction to go. It's not just the process of creating, but I see it more as trusting the process of creating. Trust what is created, however ugly or beautiful you may think it is, don't get hung up over it, let it go and more importantly keep on creating.

I'm not sure I like to get caught up in the good and evil scenario. Positivity and negativity sound so much more attractive to me....... less biblical. Even creating something negative (like a state of depression) can be a positive experience just through the act of creating, provided that there is the patience to trust the process.

The Tibetan monks seem to have it pretty well sussed. I guess you've got a lot of sand to practice with where you live.

Mike

 

[meng]

LOL, yes, lots of sand.

Good and evil were convenient words to express opposite sides of our own moral construct.

 

[willowfox]

3 ) "How can I best deal with this debilitating and immobilizing depression?" got 41:6 > 19

This looks to be about your teaching, if you help others then you are indirectly helping yourself at the same time, so through hard and dedicated work will will gather students around you, thus taking your mind off of yourself, while Hex 19 carries on the idea of putting your mind and soul into teaching, this surely will help you lessen your depression by thinking of others and their needs and decrease your time thinking about your own obsessive thoughts.

Just my own personal thoughts.

 

[ginnie]

Reduce Your Angry Temper

I'm really glad to have made your acquaintance here at Clarity, Rabbistoryteller!

Getting hex 41 means you're angry because your life's work is like volunteer work. It's not paying you enough money. You work full time trying to help/heal people and the money is just not there. No wonder you're angry. The Yi is telling you that you must seek ways to reduce your angry temper in order to improve your mental health.

Line 1 moving means that unselfish assistance to others is good, but only as long as you're teaching them to help themselves.

Line 2 moving means to stop sacrificing yourself. Never give more of yourself than you actually have to spare. The fact that people aren't even paying you properly for all you're doing is actually quite humiliating!!!

Line 6 moving means you will learn to help others in such a way that you do not take too much from yourself.

Those of us with a strong innate impulse to help other people and serve our communities really have to learn this hex 41 lesson: When we give too much of ourselves, we are going to resent it, and that resentment will make us feel unwell. To receive hexagram 41 means the Yi is telling you to "cool it": learn how to reduce your angry temper by re-thinking the principle we call "sacrifice."

In every case, the only person I am supposed to help or heal or save is myself. This is a big secret to many who are engaged in helping people full time, like yourself.

I am sure there are those in your community who are expert sufferers. They will never relent in their demands upon you. And they may never decide to change, no matter what you do.

The Yi is telling you to step back and reconsider some of these things.

When you got hex 23, that means do nothing, stop and change your ideas.

When you got hex 7 that was because you were organizing the time remaining in your therapy session.

When you got 19, it indicated that some sort of critical moment was approaching for you. Maybe the critical moment approaching is the moment when the light bulb goes on and you really get the main idea the Yi has been telling you! The idea is that you must reduce the degree of sacrifice in your life, because when you give away too much of yourself it adversely affects your mental health!

Your getting line 6 tells me that you will get the knack of giving to others without losing anything yourself.

Whether sacrifice to others is actually necessary in order to help them is the question, Rabbistoryteller. What we are to reduce, what we are to decrease, what we are to sacrifice is our own bad habits; specifically, in this case, getting angry caused by giving away too much of oneself to others.

Forgive me for feeling so confident of my interpretation of your hexagrams! I've been through all this myself!

 

[ginnie]

Giving to others without taking from oneself

"What hexagram best advises how to use the balance of my therapy session today for the greatest possible good for all?"
Using the 16 beads, I got 41:1 & 6 . 7.

3 ) "How can I best deal with this debilitating and immobilizing depression?"

I got 41:6 > 19 !

Thanks in advance! Steve

When you get both line 1 and line 6 moving, the situation is usually very brief and over quickly, just like your session . . . That' s a common pattern you will see in the hexagrams, and it's pretty easy to recognize.

The Yi with 41.6 > 19 is telling you that when you learn how to give without decreasing yourself, you will have dealt successfully with the debilitating and immobilizing depression.

Let me quote here from the Legge translation for you on line 6 moving in hexagram 41:

"The topmost line, undivided, shows its subject giving increase to others without taking from himself. There will be no error. With firm correctness there will be good fortune. There will be advantage in every movement that shall be made. He will find ministers [that means helpers] more than can be counted by their clans."

I think the gist of that is really clear. I personally like the Legge translation more and more as the years go on. It's also readily available online.

And, no, it's not so unusual to get the same hexagram three times in rapid succession. Especially since you were basically asking about the same issue each time. Sometimes the Yi will vary its answers to bring out other aspects you need to know about, but in this case, as someone else said, the Yi decided to trumpet the message into your ear!

Hope this has been helpful, Steve!

 

[rabbistoryteller]

Thank you, ginnie, willowfox, Mike, meng and rodaki! THis was all very, very helpful. I find it interesting how clear some of this is and how even though there were differences in your responses, as well as the ones earlier, they do not seem to contradict at all (in this case, at least)!

I really do appreciate the help you have all offered and I hope I am up to the task of actualizing it and putting it into practice. :bows:

Blessings,

Steve

 

[maremaria]

What is interesting to me is the story you shared with us in the other thread. Make me wonder how randomly chosen was. Reading the discussion btw Mike and Meng, especially the mandala part, and having used mandalas, in a very amature way, to makes some space in my mind, I found a awesome connection between all those parts.

Maria

 

[rabbistoryteller]

Random Connection and Coinciding

What is interesting to me is the story you shared with us in the other thread. Make me wonder how randomly chosen was. Reading the discussion btw Mike and Meng, especially the mandala part, and having used mandalas, in a very amature way, to makes some space in my mind, I found a awesome connection between all those parts.

Maria

Hmm, I would be interested in you unpacking the above comments either in this thread or in another one, especially regarding mandalas, especially, as mandalas have been on my mind lately, because I just led a retreat at a Yoga retreat center where there was ANOTHER retreat (partially silent) all about mandalas! And, I was reading Katya Walter's book last night before I read this post and thread (not knowing what you wrote until today) TAO OF CHAOS, where she makes all kinds of interesting connections and the page I opened up to "at random" (as if there really is such a thing! ), was a page with what she calls a "yantra", which she relates to mandalas, and the illustration she had there, looked like a mandala to me. As did the fractal illustrations of the "Koch Snowflake" and the "Square Snowflake" she had in that little discussion.

As for the amount of randomness in my choosing that story, it was not too random: a story was requested, I wanted to have a short one, and since I only remember one I Ching story (other than the classic I Ching legends), that I had read in some book of Zen stories some time ago, I told that one.

Nevertheless, I think I see some direction to your observation and would be interested to know what connections you see between the story and this thread and/or the mandala discussion.

I value such connections because I think that is what it is all about. Follow the threads and then sew a set of clothes with it!

Blessings,

Steve

 

[maremaria]

Hi Steve,

My knowledge on Tao, Yoga mandalas etc is very-very limited.I consider myself ignorant and what I say is not out of modesty , just the plain facts. So please bare in mind that while reading my attempt to respond to you

Maybe is something “mine” and probably I was influenced from some random connections regarding my life, coincides that even if you try is not easy to ignore them and pass by them , so being in that mode, I felt like your story initiate a discussion that holds something useful towards the answers you are seeking. But this is just my impression. I write this will lots of hestitation but reading a few thing you told us about you it makes it a bit easier.

Regarding mandalas, I came across in a very …well, …random way too. I was in the midst of a dark period and tried to recover from a burn out. I have a blog where I vent , lol, but those times I couldn’t/ didn’t ? want to write. I was going to my page and instead of posting I was visiting a friend's blog. She is an artist and her art is some relief to me. Following some links there, I found a site about mandalas. I needed color those days , so without a second thought I printed some mandalas designs, bought color pencils and in the nights I was coloring and coloring. Later I made some of my own. Just took a paper made a cycle and played with my colors. Don’t know how to interpret them. People say that they can unveil very significant information. I used only my intuition and I believe that somehow I got their message. I friend I meet that period of time, confirmed some thoughts of mine. The founding were not always nice to see them though. I didn’t felt the need for more explanation because what I needed that specific time I had it. I created a space in my day, where I pressed the “mute” button and silenced every outside noise. A state of bliss. I needed colors and my own space. And I found it in a piece of paper.

There are people know much more about mandalas. This is just my mandala story. Maybe its doesn’t answers to your questions but this is only what I got.

Maria

 

[maremaria]

Nevertheless, I think I see some direction to your observation and would be interested to know what connections you see between the story and this thread and/or the mandala discussion.

Steve

I'm too fuzzy today.

The connection I saw between the story the repeated 41 and the mandala, Is " creating a space"

 

[rabbistoryteller]

Maybe is something “mine” and probably I was influenced from some random connections regarding my life, coincides that even if you try is not easy to ignore them and pass by them , so being in that mode, I felt like your story initiate a discussion that holds something useful towards the answers you are seeking. But this is just my impression. I write this will lots of hestitation but reading a few thing you told us about you it makes it a bit easier.

You may be right, Maria. There may be something there. I will have to meditate on it some more. Thank you for sharing it with me and with all of us.

Regarding mandalas, I came across in a very …well, …random way too. I was in the midst of a dark period and tried to recover from a burn out. I have a blog where I vent , lol, but those times I couldn’t/ didn’t ? want to write. I was going to my page and instead of posting I was visiting a friend's blog. She is an artist and her art is some relief to me. Following some links there, I found a site about mandalas. I needed color those days , so without a second thought I printed some mandalas designs, bought color pencils and in the nights I was coloring and coloring. Later I made some of my own. Just took a paper made a cycle and played with my colors. Don’t know how to interpret them. People say that they can unveil very significant information. I used only my intuition and I believe that somehow I got their message. I friend I meet that period of time, confirmed some thoughts of mine. The founding were not always nice to see them though. I didn’t felt the need for more explanation because what I needed that specific time I had it. I created a space in my day, where I pressed the “mute” button and silenced every outside noise. A state of bliss. I needed colors and my own space. And I found it in a piece of paper.

Wow. Cool! And very interesting.

There are people know much more about mandalas. This is just my mandala story. Maybe its doesn’t answers to your questions but this is only what I got.

Maria

No, it's very interesting. And I like stories! Thank you so much for sharing. And as my Qigong Master, Chunyi Lin likes to say, "There is more than one way to cook a potato."!

All the best,

Steve

 

[yawiney]

Thank you.

hi Steve

I thought I'd add another echo of 41 here . . not really a full-fledged understanding of it, just an imaginative interpretation of its great image. These are thoughts that are still cooking inside, so they may be somewhat crude yet, but here it goes . .

I believe that 41 gives a great lesson on the ways of giving . .
It paints an image of an offering, of a mountain and of a lake. The offering is performed in two small bowls, one holds a heap of rice, the other a pool of water. But offering them does not mean just leaving them at the altar and walking away . .
What is one to do with them? What is this sacrifice for?
It looks like people give offerings for two reasons; one, to thank for whatever they own by giving up part of it but also in order to seal the good fortune of coming times, to ask for the blessing of the seeds that will bring forth increase (as in the 5th line and the following hex 42) . . but how can one do it with some water and rice?

Two bowls are enough, the image says . . pour some water into the rice but no, not all of it . . To make it a delicious plate to those you are offering you need to keep the right proportion -and besides, you don't want to end up with an empty water bowl and another one overflowing with mushy rice . . that would be an out and out decrease

and what about the somewhat emptied water bowl? It cannot produce new shoots on its own, but before cooking the rice you will give up, keep a couple of grains for that water bowl. Don't let that make you stingy with the water you're giving up, your grains won't appreciate too much water and your rice plate is better when well-cooked

how is that for an image? a full plate of rice and an almost empty bowl of water which keeps the secrets of your next harvest . . I'm sure the gods will be happy, your family too


I think 41 is all about economy (=the law of the house, even of housekeeping)
In tight, economical housekeeping the householders use the crops to feed their family and their animals and to provide offerings to the gods but keep some of it to plant anew. They kill animals for the festivals but keep those that help in farming and reproduction . . . what good is an empty farm and a barren field? what gods would be satisfied by overwhelming sacrifices that rot at the altar while people starve?
Gods and beasts live in the same temple -which ones are we summoning?



p.s.: that was just a little image I've found, thank you for giving me the opportunity to put it in writing -maybe it will be helpful in the making of your own story with it . . You should look in Bradford Hatcher's work too -it's a place of great inspiration

Thank you. It's 2yrs later from your post. I recently recieved 41 3 times. Once 2 months ago and twice in one day last week. The one 2 months ago and one of the 2 last wk were the same question. The other, same situation different question. This image helped me see the meaning in a new light and gain understanding of what it has been trying to tell me. Thank you again.

 

[rodaki]

awww, you're most welcome yawiney

I have to say though, that a big thanks goes to Bradford, cause without his book I don't think I would have found the story . .

 

[ginnie]

3 ) "How can I best deal with this debilitating and immobilizing depression?"

I got 41:6 > 19 !

Tell stories where you get to shout or yell out loud ... for the sake of your mental health. Bang with a hammer on metal or with your hands on a drum.

Just a random thought, Rabbistoryteller ...

Line 6 chooses not to reduce it, whatever "it" is. Line 6 is past the point of reduction; is no longer reducing himself. There is a definite limit to how much we can reduce ourselves without hurting ourselves.