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question of disrespect > 22 unchanging

legume

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Hello fellow diviners,

I’ve been in the process of reevaluating my relationships and as a follow up question to a reading on how to approach someone I care about, I asked what’s disrespectful about this person A telling me that person B hates me and got 22 unchanging.

I found the whole situation childish, but also got upset, as on some level felt it was equally disrespectful to both me and person B. I couldn’t find good enough explanation however, to justify my feelings, and so I looked to I Ching for help…

Could the unchanging nature of the answer mean in this case just absolute lack of grace? Or would the image of the hexagram be more of a clue, pointing to light on the mountain, as if I’ve only started to uncover the tip of the iceberg with this simple question (either in regards to this person's behaviour or the matter of respect in general)? I might have read it even somewhere here before, but this hexagram reminds me of Plato's Cave, in this situation the person A being in "power" so to say, is casting shadows of actual reality on mine and person's B canvas, mountain... ?

Usually I Ching helps me put my thoughts into words and find the right meaning, but now instead of knowing how to verbalise better what's so particularly disrespectful about this, I'm even more lost in the relativity of morals.

I’m very curious of your thoughts!
 

moss elk

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I asked what’s disrespectful about this person A telling me that person B hates me and got 22 unchanging.
It seems to me that there are two possibilities here. 1-the person told you the truth and has done you a favor. or 2-The person has not told you the truth for strange selfish manipulative reasons.

Since you got 22, I am inclined to think the person did not tell you the truth.

Could the unchanging nature of the answer mean in this case just absolute lack of grace?
No, No, No.

22 is not the western notion of gracefulness or spiritual respectable dignity or decency. (grace is a terrible name for 22)
Unchanging hexagrams have no other meaning than: They are a simple answer that is sufficent to address your question.
 

Trojina

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I’ve been in the process of reevaluating my relationships and as a follow up question to a reading on how to approach someone I care about, I asked what’s disrespectful about this person A telling me that person B hates me and got 22 unchanging.

I found the whole situation childish, but also got upset, as on some level felt it was equally disrespectful to both me and person B. I couldn’t find good enough explanation however, to justify my feelings, and so I looked to I Ching for help…

I think I'd be inclined to see it as nothing more than a bit of a puppet show. The Image specifically says it isn't the time to make judgements, that is decide what's true about anything because what one is seeing is surfaces only.


The Image says and I insert your name


'A noble legume brings light to the many standards, but does not venture to pass judgment' (Hilary's translation)


I would take that as it isn't time for you to try to ascertain the truth or not of this because you can't and neither can the person who told you probably.


I had all manner of strange little tableaux experiences for 22 uc...that is strange one off experiences hard to make sense of.


May be worth looking at the 22uc thread here https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?16949-Your-Experiences-with-Unchanging-Castings-Hexagram-22

there's a good thread linked in the 2nd post all about the naming of 22

here it is https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?7807-The-Angels-of-Grace-A-Spiritual-Take-on-Hexagram-22-as-an-expression-of-grace?

Could the unchanging nature of the answer mean in this case just absolute lack of grace? Or would the image of the hexagram be more of a clue, pointing to light on the mountain, as if I’ve only started to uncover the tip of the iceberg with this simple question (either in regards to this person's behaviour or the matter of respect in general)? I might have read it even somewhere here before, but this hexagram reminds me of Plato's Cave, in this situation the person A being in "power" so to say, is casting shadows of actual reality on mine and person's B canvas, mountain... ?

No because as Moss says 'Grace' misses the mark in what the hexagram is anyway

Usually I Ching helps me put my thoughts into words and find the right meaning, but now instead of knowing how to verbalise better what's so particularly disrespectful about this, I'm even more lost in the relativity of morals.

'The relativity of morals' is a perfect reason/description of why you are unable to make a judgement here. You have the experience but can't decide what is ultimately true about it.


FWIW though it seems to me to be perfectly understandable why you would be upset. People who go around telling other people what X,Y or Z said to them are beneath contempt IMO. I mean why bother ? The main motivation seems to hurt and cause discord unless I suppose X,Y or Z is actively out to cause you damage. But saying B hates you is so vague and unsubstantiated. How do they do they know and is their perception even correct ? I doubt it somehow.
 

legume

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thank you, Trojina, after quite a while this comment really hits the spot - "I would take that as it isn't time for you to try to ascertain the truth", as well as the "puppet show" and reference to "tip of the iceberg" i made myself or took from 22 uc thread... it took few more months before i could "pass judgement" on what was actually going on and finally get to understand the workings of this person's brain.

in that context it was not really disrespectful (or at least not meant as such), as the person most of the time is not even aware of engaging in the show, yet being the natural puppeteer all the time. i call it being a (harmless - in this case) sociopath, which (unsurprisingly for this level of narcissism) made the person seem actually flattered when confronted with this unqualified diagnosis of mine. i don't think people who have such condition necessarily mean for actual harm or disrespect though, all they want is some fun for themselves, here and now, often not even realising when the boundaries are crossed and forgetting just too quickly that they pushed any buttons (as, simply put - they cannot empathise, yet they're constantly bored and in need of stimuli). not sure if this helps, but thought i'd share.

thank you all again for your feedback, as it's been really helpful in solving this.
 

Olga Super Star

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or 2-The person has not told you the truth for strange selfish manipulative reasons.

Since you got 22, I am inclined to think the person did not tell you the truth.
Is it because 22 is often linked to theatre and disguise?

22 is not the western notion of gracefulness or spiritual respectable dignity or decency.
How would you describe 22 in a few words if someone asked you?

I have thought it to be form, outside, shape.
Now I get it’s surface.

I would have thought as [MENTION=20745]legume[/MENTION] that it meant that this person lacks form, education.

I am also well acquainted to people that feel this urge to inform me that the whole world hates me and it’s terrible.

One of the last I can remember a couple of months ago, a teacher of mine informed me that my whole class believes I am worth nothing.

It is true a guy wrote to me in private a couple of times to sarcastically imply that my knowledge of cinema is rather low.
Yet at the final exams I got the highest mark in the entire class in the technical test.
And I spent these last months not at ease with the class, thinking of what the teacher had said.

Legume, I would avoid this person if I were you. You said you care about them but if it’s a habit, it’s no good.
You are not supposed to know what people think of you I believe
 

legume

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thank you olga for bumping this thread. how odd, as was discussing my connection to that person with another friend just today, even though it's been out of my mind for quite a while already...

i also attempted to post an update several times before, but my clarity about this issue feels rather symbolic and internalised, basically difficult to put in words, so this might turn into a long reading...

I would avoid this person if I were you. You said you care about them but if it’s a habit, it’s no good.
You are not supposed to know what people think of you I believe
distancing myself is not a problem as we currently live a good few thousand miles apart. and stay in touch very, very rarely. nonetheless, i still somewhat care, since i still feel cared for (we both express it in weird ways but the bottom line is the authenticity of feeling). we discussed boundaries of this friendship, hence less contact. i know there's only good intentions on both sides but there was also a lot of hurt inbetween over the last decade... so i am much more careful now.

It seems to me that there are two possibilities here. 1-the person told you the truth and has done you a favor. or 2-The person has not told you the truth for strange selfish manipulative reasons.
with a year perspective i find both to be true... i found out much later from my ex, who i'm still friends with and shared the above story, that person B supposedly had warned him against me, before we started going out. so there is some sense in person A later also warning me against person B, who apparently had some problem with me for quite a while that was never expressed to me in person :eek:uch: as i generally try to stay away from any kind of intrigues (?) it never crossed my mind that someone whom i barely know might dislike me to the point of trying to plot against me in some way. maybe i'm too naive, but i find it funny actually, it's simply too childish for me to feel bothered...

anyway, i guess it could be that the person told me the truth (in an exaggerated form) for the selfish manipulative reasons...

few months ago i did an unrelated reading, but came across this for 36.6 in Bradford's translation: True authority learns to respect before it asks for respect in turn, so that candor and frankness are signs of respect
and got immediately reminded of 22 and this thread...


i could see at the time that stirring up my emotions caused this person certain satisfaction, hence my distrust. there were other things that would hint at some "danger" of the whole thing but then someone very close to me (who i know would only have my best interest at heart) asked if now that i know this person's character better (and there are not many people, if any, who would get so close so as to discover it), do i want to burn the bridge? and it just didn't feel right or didn't seem fair to finally get to know someone and then cross them out of my life just because they felt free to express their "dark side" in my presence...

so, keeping the quote of 37.6 in mind, i went on a search of understanding the meaning of 22 and found it in the top line. interesting, as got there completely on my own and only now i find confirmation that this is the governing ruler of the hexagram (if i understand it right). the image of 22 took me on a visual journey through golden hour sunshine on the mountaintops which led me to realisation of the importance of line 6. here also comes in my actual understanding of the word grace...

we all have different images in mind when we speak or think in words, so even though we use them to communicate seemingly clear meaning, the actual semantic field of the message itself gets us constantly lost in translation. to me, when i think of grace (in english), i immediately think of a certain movement, like a deer going through ferns, a graceful movement of a girl's hand fixing her hair, someone walking gracefully etc. so my initial intuition about "grace" is in my view in line with Wilhelm's commentary, that perfect grace [...] exists in simple fitness of its form.


so...
in context of this reading, i see it as some savoir fair, or maybe lightness of being that this person A carries through life. while as to question of disrespect - the form, that is the exaggeration was unnecessary. on the other hand there was a more general lesson about respect for me in here, to drop the expectation of certain form and learn when to actually take frankness as a sign of trust or respect. and in terms of theatre and disguise, yes, i learned a lot from this about wolves in sheep's clothing.

I am also well acquainted to people that feel this urge to inform me that the whole world hates me and it’s terrible.

One of the last I can remember a couple of months ago, a teacher of mine informed me that my whole class believes I am worth nothing.

It is true a guy wrote to me in private a couple of times to sarcastically imply that my knowledge of cinema is rather low.
Yet at the final exams I got the highest mark in the entire class in the technical test.
And I spent these last months not at ease with the class, thinking of what the teacher had said.
i think for me this was not about distancing myself from the fact someone might hate me, but actually realising that even if this is true, it's most likely because they have trouble maintaining their own self-worth and it's not really to do with me as much as with themselves, i guess (and by that exercising compassion). after all, self-worth (nomen est omen) doesn't depend on any external factors or other people but only oneself.

there's a story, i think from Carol Anthony, that got stuck with me. she wrote about her experience of having used I Ching for a while and eventually finding some inner freedom and then all of a sudden being constantly "tested" by her environment. but, i believe, this serves only to gain necessary know-how for maintaining that freedom and self-worth permanently.

btw, i can see why some would prefer word adornment over grace for the name of the hexagram. but with my own interpretation i eventually felt prompted to ask myself what if all the forms were dropped, what would be left? and from that point on, with hope that it could serve for emergence of a new, simpler, fitting form i continue learning to navigate through a much more causal, in a way, yet much more honest connection with that person.

in the end, i guess adornment better describes the image of the hexagram, starting the journey at the footstep of the mountain, looking up. while (perfect) grace gives me a more holistic picture, a view from the top of the mountain, where both the golden slopes and shaded valleys can be seen.
maybe this is why the general advice is in gaining some perspective... the whole issue appears superficial, but with time, as i gather more information along the way, it might help me climb some higher levels of understanding?
 

moss elk

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How would you describe 22 in a few words if someone asked you?
hi Olga,
I would say things like Beautifying (not beauty, beauty is health), Appearances vs Substance, Seeming vs Real, Charade, Lipstick.
 

Olga Super Star

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Sorry legume for hijacking your post.
(What a funny name though :D
In my language it’s something to eat).

Im trying to understand this 22.

So appearance va substance.

I once got it for an expensive camera.
Am now wondering if it was saying that it was more appearance than substance.

But I also read that 22 can be helping to bring outside the beauty you have inside, matching substance and form.

Now I got it for a house which I haven’t seen in person yet but looks quite stunningly beautiful on paper. And it s cheap.
A bit far from the center.

So I am wondering if it means that it will help me bring out the beauty I have inside or if on the other hand it is just appearance, a warning not to be taken by this form, to look more at substance (position).

I will go open my own thread as I am hojacking this too much.

But on a general term, I am not clear whether 22 stands.

Perhaps it can mean both, depending on the context?
 

Trojina

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22 can indicate you only need to see what's right in front of you.

I recall Brad's example of mountain goats who can only live by using very short sight, they are on ledges, if they started gazing out over the landscape they'd fall off. Will see if I can find that thread - oh looks like I already linked above
 

moss elk

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we all have different images in mind when we speak or think in words, so even though we use them to communicate seemingly clear meaning, the actual semantic field of the message itself gets us constantly lost in translation. to me, when i think of grace (in english)...
You are focusing on a word that does not adequately capture the meaning of 22, and therefore still sort of missing the meaning.
'Grace' (which has more than one meaning in English) does not appear in the Yi Jing, the Title of 22 is Bi.

Try this exercise:
1-Erase the word 'Grace' from your mind.
2-Look at Bradford's list of keywords, and replace 'Grace' with each of of them, one at a time. Then you'll probably get it:

Dressing up, beautifying, decorating, embellishing; relation of form to content, Elaboration, costumery, vanity, cosmetics, fashion, facade, veneer, posturing, Refinement, style, grace, elegance, charm, class, etiquette, protocol, formality, Nearsight, limited vision, myopia, glamour, fascination, sham, illusion, pomp, Superficiality, public image, fancy surfaces; proximity’s effect on apparent size, Aesthetics, beauty way, highlighted substance; the cultural artifact as substance


Yes, he did include the word Grace in the list,
but your association with the word Grace in your example of the Deer is more like Agility, Nimbleness, Dexterity, Gracefulness,
Those things are not 22.

I recall someone mentioning a 22 reading about a time they had consumed some alcohol.... How pretty everything looked, how Dreamy.

And then there are these lyrics to a tavern song:
The girls all get prettier at closing time
They all begin to look like movie stars
The girls all get prettier at closing time
When the change starts taking place
It puts a glow on every face
Of the falling angels of the back street bars.
 

Olga Super Star

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The girls all get prettier at closing time
When the change starts taking place
It puts a glow on every face [/I]
What change?


Nice song. :)

So to summarize 22: it’s not as it appears it to be. There may be something hidden.
 

moss elk

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What change?
The change from everyone sitting around a bar,
to motion of preparing to leave.

Nice song. :)
Actually, it is a terrible song about alcoholics and marital infidelity.
But those few sentences are good.

So to summarize 22: it’s not as it appears it to be. There may be something hidden.
Right, that is why the Image says not to think you are going to have accurate judgement: the jun zi does not presume to execute justice.

The light dancing, flickering on the mountains ridges, make it seem like something other than the big old dense hunk of rock that it is.
 

legume

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You are focusing on a word that does not adequately capture the meaning of 22, and therefore still sort of missing the meaning.
'Grace' (which has more than one meaning in English) does not appear in the Yi Jing, the Title of 22 is Bi.

Try this exercise:
1-Erase the word 'Grace' from your mind.
2-Look at Bradford's list of keywords, and replace 'Grace' with each of of them, one at a time. Then you'll probably get it:

Dressing up, beautifying, decorating, embellishing; relation of form to content, Elaboration, costumery, vanity, cosmetics, fashion, facade, veneer, posturing, Refinement, style, grace, elegance, charm, class, etiquette, protocol, formality, Nearsight, limited vision, myopia, glamour, fascination, sham, illusion, pomp, Superficiality, public image, fancy surfaces; proximity’s effect on apparent size, Aesthetics, beauty way, highlighted substance; the cultural artifact as substance


Yes, he did include the word Grace in the list,
but your association with the word Grace in your example of the Deer is more like Agility, Nimbleness, Dexterity, Gracefulness,
Those things are not 22.
what i was trying to express, aside from that no word can adequately capture even its own meaning, is that (since english is not my native language) through my seemingly limited understanding of the word "grace" (as well as holding apparently different feelings on deer or probably more doe-like movements :D) i actually might have intuitively arrived at something closer to "refinement, style, grace, elegance, charm, class, etiquette". i have different connotations with the word grace (and learned very late about "god's grace" or the word's spiritual meaning), than probably most people and to me it simply fits the hexagram. another closer interpretation for me would be Greek mythology and the 3 Graces, goddesses of charm, cheerfulness and beauty, though even these "charities" have been translated differently across the world. yet that again points to how broad the actual meaning of the word „grace” is and i think that’s why it's still widely used for 22.

i get the point of the exercise and totally agree that the image of the hex is about adornment, beautifying, facade - this is one group, where all Bradford's keywords can fall, together with the ones i quoted again. but i also see another group and another view on "grace" where the meaning can shift a bit and it doesn't fit anymore with the previous semantic field. that's the "perfect grace" Wilhelm talks about, that's when (to me at least) class, for example, can be more than just an external form, when it's also a simplest, elegant form arising from the situation itself, when content does not need sham to be beauty as in Bradford's commentary to the top, ruling line.

so only in the context of line 6 - refinement, style, grace, elegance, class, etiquette don't necessarily belong anymore with the rest of the keywords. in my view, when they are not forced, they lose their beautified or illusionary form and become just what they are (content and form become equal), be it class or elegance or etiquette (as in not trying to fit in and behave a certain way but just being yourself and by that knowing how to behave) or „perfect grace” in itself.

22 can indicate you only need to see what's right in front of you.
i agree that it’s about not seeing past what’s right in front of us, or not being able, having means, right tools, perspective to see it as it truly is. from Moss Elk’s song - beer goggles? sure, why not. :cool: but in me that would eventually incite the need to sober up and climb up that mountain. just because 22 says i don’t understand the full picture behind what’s right in front of me, doesn’t mean i don’t need to see more. though sometimes indeed, probably better not to go back to that bar when sober…

or we don't need to see more or look for more, as it will eventually be revealed anyway?

Sorry legume for hijacking your post.
(What a funny name though
In my language it’s something to eat).
yes, it does mean something to eat. i love lentils! :D

re the house, i think it means just exactly what you wrote. you saw it only on paper (which is obviously meant to make the house appear good - beautifying) as in the image of the hexagram. so you’re lacking the full picture. but if you feel like you need more information to make a decision, you’d have to go for a viewing and check if the content indeed fits the form and if the house actually fits your needs, etc.? hope this helps and you get the house you’re after! :)

and no worries about hijacking, thanks for joining! been quite perplexed by 22 for a while myself so find it all interesting. to sum up my thoughts, i believe the whole of the hexagram and especially the image, definitely point to some form of adornment and lacking a broader perspective to fully grasp the situation at hand. but i guess it depends on the type of question, whether it’s sufficient to just focus on the image, or one needs to read the whole hexagram and climb all the way up to the top line. and... give it time?
 

Olga Super Star

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there's a story, i think from Carol Anthony, that got stuck with me. she wrote about her experience of having used I Ching for a while and eventually finding some inner freedom and then all of a sudden being constantly "tested" by her environment. but, i believe, this serves only to gain necessary know-how for maintaining that freedom and self-worth permanently.
Tested by her environment in the sense that her environment was trying to get that freedom away from her?

22 can indicate you only need to see what's right in front of you.

I recall Brad's example of mountain goats who can only live by using very short sight, they are on ledges, if they started gazing out over the landscape they'd fall off.
Which is not a good advice on buying something after all, certainly not a house.

If I just look shortsighted at it, I would get it. I have enough money, it's stunningly beautiful (went to see it in person), looks like the house of a deceased Earl or Lord..

Gazing out I would say there's too many mosquitoes over there, due to too many trees at the back of the house (I normally like trees but if the area is poor then people don't do the necessary mosquito control disinfection you usually do on plants); the bathroom needs renovating. The rest could go.
But I would still live in a not sought after area after all (less tourists to rent out, more difficult to move about, and so on).

Actually, it is a terrible song about alcoholics and marital infidelity.
I love those songs.

One of the first songs I learned when a child was one about 12 men in a tavern in the mountains drinking and talking, but suddenly they notice one of them is not joining the conversation and his glass still full.

Who knows why he isn't drinking, asks the song.
You better not listen to your heart, and everything will be ok.

Right, that is why the Image says not to think you are going to have accurate judgement: the jun zi does not presume to execute justice.
Ok so I'd better not buy this huge elegant house I think.

This superficial beauty might get in the way of proper thinking.


22 says i don’t understand the full picture behind what’s right in front of me, doesn’t mean i don’t need to see more.
I want to single out this sentence for future bumpers into this thread.
 

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