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Question on Tarot and I-Ching

kitkat

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Hello all,

I'm a new poster here, just found the I-ching a few months back and was curious. Does anyone have an idea if a "Table of Correspondences" was created, placing an I-Ching Hexagram in correspondence with it's comparable Tarot Card. I am fully aware there are only 64 Hexagrams and 78 Cards, so naturally some cards will not have corresponding Hexagrams. If you can be of ANY assistance in this, or can point me to a site, paper, or other resource I would be most grateful. Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide.

Sincerely,
Katherine
 

bradford_h

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Hello Katherine-
First, of course, remember that there is no historical connection between the two, so any such table is going to be made up by someone who perceives a resonance between symbols from different cultures and how smaller symbols are put together into larger ones.
Given that understanding, Aleister Crowley got a start on a system, but left it incomplete and with some fundamental errors. Others have tried since then, including me. I liked his assocation of 16 of the Gua to the Court cards and began there when I noticed that these produced a symmetrical pattern when plotted onto the Shao Yong binary square (all of the Yi's own internal dimensions do this as well).
I've been playing with my own system since the early 70's, which starts with a corrected version of Crowley's and the notion that the 2+4+8+64 of the Yi adds to 78. You can find this system at sections I and the end of G on my www.hermetica.info website. There's also some introductory material in "Introduction to Scales" in Section D.
Of course, not being an ascended master or nuthin', all I can call this is a human effort.
 

bradford_h

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Hi again Katherine-
I should probably add to be wary of - and test - all systems of correspondences.
A lot of these have been transcribed and switched around mindlessly, often by someone who knows only one system well.
A good check on the Tarot against Astrology is to look at the trump with the Scales and be sure someone says Libra. The card with the Lion should be related to Leo. If they do not, and they often don't, the person developing the system is "not playing with a full deck."
With some modifications, the system I like best is the Golden Dawn, as improved somewhat by Crowley. However, any systems tying in the Yi to the Western Mystery Tradition will be Crowley's or something much newer.
 

hilary

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Brad, do you (does anyone) know about the strength of the correlations between the hexagrams and the Minor Arcana in the Haindl tarot?
 

bradford_h

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Hi Hilary-
Gotta defer to others on this one. I have all my 200 Tarot books deliberately hidden until I "finish" the Yijing commentary and Qabalah work. And I haven't used this particular system.
But if we don't hear from anyone on this I can take a look next week when I'm near the forbidden tomes.
b
 

mick

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Katherine,

The set of Tarot/I Ching correspondences that I use can be found on a thread here at Hilary's Clarity site.

The system was worked out by Karen Witter.

As Bradford wisely says, "... be wary of - and test - all systems of correspondences."

I don't know how to post links but the thread is called:

Archive of threads started January to June 2002: I Ching/Tarot Associations - Karen Witter

In Hexagram order, I went through each Tarot Trump correspondence that I use.

Please do a forum search if you'd like to read the thread.

Best wishes,

Mick
 

pagan

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Hi,
I love this subject.

I haven't found any good method to make one to one correlations but I have found that certain lines have greatly helped me understand the meaning of a certain card and vice versa.

Trying to make one to one correlations also doesn't take into consideration that every tarot card has a reversed meaning, where this isn't generally true of ICHING lines/hexagrams.
P.
 

mick

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Pagan,

Yes it's a fascinating subject isn't it.

I went to a 1-day Tarot workshop with Paul Fenton-Smith.

He gave me the idea that a reversed Tarot card could mean that you need to go back and learn the lesson of the previous card.

I find this idea to be very practical and useful.

So, for example, in a Tarot reading, a reversed V Le Pape could mean that the querent needs to learn the lesson of IIII L'Empereur.

Add in the I Ching correspondences and there's a wonderful cross-pollination of ideas.

For me, Trump V links to Hx 9 and Trump IIII links to Hx 30.

So maybe the querent needs to acknowledge their own inner power a lot more? Especially their clarity of vision.

I hope that you get the idea. This is helpful to me in my Tarot readings. I may not be of any use to you or to anyone else.

Best wishes,

Mick
 

pagan

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Hi Mick,
You obviously use the french tarot deck!

I agree that a reversed card could be 'pointing' to the previous lesson that must be reassimilated. But for me, the reversed cards always sort of mean 'line 6' of the tarot card. Like a reversed tower means the after math of disaster. Or a reversed five of pentacles means that you are now getting over a period of poverty and extreme lack.

Except when we look at court cards. A reversed knight of cups, for example, is a dishonest or insincere offer or proposal, or one that is hoped for is not forthcoming. Often reversed court cards of the cups suit are dishonest, drugged, or deluded in some way.

But a reversed card may also mean that you haven't mastered the lesson of that card and so it is time to go back and pick up the threads of the previous lessons before making another step forward.

Can I ask you how you interpret the five of swords? Do you see it as the subject of the reading taking unfair advantage of others or vice versa; where someone is taking unfair advantage of the subject? I read where five of swords as the final outcome card (celtic layout) means "you get what you want but not the way you wanted it" and this reminds me of hexagram 7 line 3 that says "success has no value because of the corpses in the wagon".
P.
 

mick

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Pagan,

This is great - thank you


Demitra? Are you up for joining in?

Yes I use the Tarot de Marseille or Swiss 1JJ. I like pips without pictures.

I totally agree about reversed Court Cards. Paul Fenton-Smith gave us a set of very useful and practical meanings for the reversed Courts.

You say, "I agree that a reversed card could be 'pointing' to the previous lesson that must be reassimilated. But for me, the reversed cards always sort of mean 'line 6' of the tarot card. Like a reversed tower means the after math of disaster. Or a reversed five of pentacles means that you are now getting over a period of poverty and extreme lack."

Yes but how about adding in the idea that the reversed XVI the Tower has the sense that you brought the disaster on yourself and now you need to learn the lesson of XV the Devil?

The lesson of XV being perhaps that it's an illusion to think that you have no choice.

And the reversed 5 of Pents means that you have to learn the lesson of the 4 of Pents, look after your resources and accept what you've got.

You say, "But a reversed card may also mean that you haven't mastered the lesson of that card and so it is time to go back and pick up the threads of the previous lessons before making another step forward."

Ab-so-lute-ly. I agree and find this a very practical and useful approach in my Tarot readings. The previous lesson being the prior card, (Aces go back to Tens).

5 of Swords? I think that it's hard to talk about a card in isolation. It really depends what other cards are around it. But...

I think that 5 of Swords tends to mean conflict out in the open. Conflicting ideas and opinions perhaps.

I use the Golden Dawn astrological corresponds (Tdm with Golden Dawn? Who cares what the purists think).

5 of Swords = Venus in Aquarius, quite an awkward placement. Very detached feelings. Unwilling to connect with the emotional side of their life. Cold and unfeeling at times, then a sudden outburst of inappropriate emotion.

So yes, definitely someone who doesn't really understand the world of feelings and therefore doesn't consider other people's feelings enough.

I don't see them as being taken advantage of except that they might be drawn towards people they see as powerful and might end up being hurt.

You say, "you get what you want but not the way you wanted it" how about adding "and probably at some cost to yourself".

I think that the 5 of Swords reversed includes the idea of learning to recognising the value of compromise.

I like the link to Hx 7,

Best wishes,

Mick
 

pagan

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Hi Mick
Is there an on line link to the golden dawn astrological correspondences? I sure agree that venus in aquarius would be like the five of swords.
Do you find something good in every card? If so, what would be good about the five of swords.

Are you familiar with the Desinty card readings? I think they are fascinating.{http://www.7thunders.com/FreeReading/Readings.php}


As far as the tower is concerned, in the course of evolution, it would seem that the lesson has a lot to do with understanding how we are integrally part of any disaster that comes our way and never completely innocent. The tower also seems to me a lot like hexagram 51.
P.
 

mick

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Pagan,

I think that the Golden Dawn Astrological decanate correspondences for the Tarot pip cards are fantastic.

For Book T, please check out this link:

http://www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no8/eqi08016.html

I'm not familiar with Destiny card readings.

Maybe a positive side of the 5 of Swords could be if conflict that has been repressed and boiling inside of you unhealthily were to come out into the open.

Perhaps this conflict could then clear the air and allow you to move on (6 of Swords).

XVI The Tower is a hard, hard lesson. Hx 51 does have the sense of keeping your head when everything's kicking off all around you.

The system I use links The Tower to Hx 21. Perhaps Hx 21 fits with what you're say about how we are never completely innocent?

Best wishes,

Mick
 

pagan

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Hi Mick,
I would like to know the link or the name of the book for the system you use.

I think it would be a good equation to see that 21 plus 51 equal the tower.

So you use one to one correlations from the IC to tarot? I have never found that too fulfilling. I find a richer lesson for me lies in finding combinations that illustrate the principles.

For example, once you learn each tarot association, then you look at what pairings of cards indiciate. And I find that in the tarot readings I do, I often have pairings. For example, often the high priestess and the moon come up in the same reading again and again. I also find that aces like to show up together in my readings.
P.
 

mick

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Pagan,

There is no book unfortunately.

I've tried to include a link to the thread here which contains all I know about the system:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/311.html?

Yes, I find that the one-to-one correspondences are enough but I can understand how that might be too limiting for you.

I know what you mean about Aces coming together.

I think that one thing about Tarot is that in a spread, a card can only appear once (if you see what I mean).

So, imagine that someone is about start a project and the time is now right, they're really well-prepared and nicely placed.

If the Ace of Swords appears in one position and the ideal card for another position in the spread would also be the Ace of Swords, maybe the next best thing is another Ace? Ace of Wands perhaps?

Just a thought.

Best wishes,

Mick
 

pagan

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Hi Mick,
This is interesting to analyze.
I totally agree with the
Magician correlating to #1 Creative
and I never would have associated
Hierophant with #9 Restraint but when I think of the function of the Pope, I have to agree it is a brilliant association.
Hermit: #43 Breakthrough I can see a real connection here.

Death #34 Great Power, I can't really get, Mainly because 34 is so much about operating within the status quo in order to have an effect.
Star: #26:Stored Potential. Yes, because the Star is opportunity but the Star is usually so much more than just potential. It would almost seem to be that you could switch 34 for star and 26 for Death.

Sphere #2
High Priestess #29 Danger; yes, I would have thought the Moon for 29 but I can see some relationship here too.
Lovers: #59 Dispersion. I don't know about this one, it doesn't ring to me. Why not 30? 32? or 31? Or even 38 or 53?
Wheel of Fortune: #47 Exhaustion-- I would think 49 Revolution here? Hanged man seems more like 47 to me.
Temperance: #40 Deliverance; this one works.
Moon: #4 Folly. I don't know, I would be inclined to give the Fool to #4.

Sphere #3
Empress: #2 Devotion. The general interpretation of the Empress would be like #2 but on a metaphysical level, I would see it differently.
Chariot: #46 Rising. Yes, goals are a strong association here in both.
Justice: #19: I am not sure here. Justice is more like #56. We think of 56 as travel but 56 is more about lawsuits. So is 55. I would give Justice #55 Abundance.
Devil: #24 Return. I don't know, I would give the Devil to 44 because if feels like temptation to me.
Sun: #15 Modesty. I would have given Temperance to 15. The Sun feels more like 46 Rising to me.

Sphere #4
Emperor: #30 Clinging, I think the Lovers belongs here with 30. Emperor would be more like #6; conflict with 13 and 45 or even 8 cause of the focus of a central leader worthy to lead.
Strength: #50 Cauldron. I would be more inclined to give strength to hex 3, difficulty at the beginning.
Hanged Man #38 Opposition. The hermit seems more like 47 exhaustion to me but 38 works too.
Tower: #21 I can see 21 and 51 both here.
Judgement: #56 Travelling doesn't seem to fit because Judgement is such a positive card, I would think it would be more like 11, peace on earth or grace 22.
The world seems like 63 completion and/or 24 return.
I see the Fool as 64, because you can see 64 as the beginning of the ICHING, the moment before incarnation "before the end" can also be the beginning of a whole journey. We think of 64 as 'almost over' but I am not so sure.
P.
 

mick

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Pagan,

Thank you so much for going through Karen's ideas.

Loads for us to talk about - this could take months.

Can we look at one or two of your comments at a time?

"Star: #26:Stored Potential. Yes, because the Star is opportunity but the Star is usually so much more than just potential. It would almost seem to be that you could switch 34 for star and 26 for Death."

But then the relationship between the Tarot cards changes.

I really like the way Karen's system gives you an insight into the relationship between V the Hierophant (Hx 9) and XVII the Star (Hx 26).

Line 5 changes from Yang to Yin.

I think that this is the power of Yin. The Star is so much deeper than the letter-of-the-law Hierophant.

What I like about linking XIII to Hx 34 is the sense of movement about Hx 34. So the Death card seems more about moving forward and changing from one state into another.

Also with Death as Hx 34 you can feel the power of Yang rising through this sequence:

Hx 2 - The Empress (totally passive)
Hx 24 - The Devil (the turning point)
Hx 19 - Justice (becoming more solid)
Hx 11 - The Fool (an ideal situation)
Hx 34 - Death (pushing onwards)
Hx 43 - The Hermit (working to get rid of something)
Hx 1 - The Magician (everything is in potential)

What do you think?

Best wishes,

Mick
 

pagan

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Hi Mick,
The sequence is an interesting perspective, but I guess I need to go back and review the basis for the pattern you are following. Hex. 11 as the Fool is very easy for me to relate to and so is the magician as 'everything in potential'. Hex. 24 is perhaps related to the devil in that the challenge of the devil card is to 'turn back to the right way'. Hex. 19 as 'good approaches' would certainly be able to be applied to Justice.
I still have a difficult time with Death compared to hex 34 "right and wrong uses of power" because it seems to much like 34 wants to preserve the status quo and work with it, not revolution and change and transformation like the death card would point to. I like 43 for the hermit in its coming to terms with obstacles in our point of view, the hermit 'breaks through' those mental barriers.

Can you tell me what the basis of this ordering is?
P.
 

mick

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Pagan,

I think that XIII Death is about change but I don't see Death as revolution.

Death is about gently letting go and moving on. I can see what you mean though about Hx 34 and the status quo.

But Hx 34 makes me realise just how powerful and irresistible Death is.

The basis of Karen's system has to do with Kabbalah. I don't understand it at all but I think that there's a link to an article written by Karen on the other thread.

Is that what you meant by asking about the basis of the ordering?

Thanks and best wishes,

Mick
 

pagan

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Hi Mick,
If you think about the sign of Scorpio, the snake shedding its skin is often equated to the symbolism of death. So this would like of relate to the molting of hexagram 49.

Speaking of death, I went to a lecture presented by an astrological group that did research into the charts at the moment of death and found that the key planet was Jupiter, not Pluto or Mars. And you can kind of see Jupiter's relationship to real physical death if you think of death as a journey to a unknown (foreign) place. Death then, from an astrological standpoint, was like liberation (Jupiter is very much about freedom). So you might even see death card as hexagram 40, deliverance.
P.
 

mick

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Pagan,

Yes, I think that the people born with Scorpio heavily emphasised in their chart often understand and totally accept that death is a part of life.

But I don't quite understand your first sentence, "If you think about the sign of Scorpio, the snake shedding its skin is often equated to the symbolism of death."

Is the snake a symbol for Scorpio? I know about the scorpion and the eagle.

I go to an Astrology group in London. Every so often they discuss the chart of someone who's recently died and it does seem that sometimes Jupiter transits do bring on the moment of death in someone who is terminally ill.

It's as if Jupiter's power is just too much for the physical body to take. As you say, liberation.

But I think that there's a difference between physical death and Tarot trump XIII.

XIII Death isn't the same thing as someone dying.

The classic image of the Reaper represents complete and utter change by gently letting go of the past. Done is done.

I think that the link to Hx 34 has helped me to interpret the Death card in readings mainly because of the emphasis on moving forward with great power.

Best wishes,

Mick
 

pagan

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Hi Mick,
I am not sure that the Death card is not real physical death as well as total change in the present situation. The levels of symbolic meaning go from the gross physical to the finest spiritual dimensions, so the Death card could indicate both in my opinion.

I was just thinking about the Tower--someone on another thread related it to hexagram 23 (line 4). I often read how the tower is a disaster that occurs because of our sin; it isn't just a 'accidental disaster' but I don't know. If we see 'all the roots intertwined' beneath the surface, like Kahlil Gibran says "Who is he that can commit crime without the hidden will of us all?"

On another note; I can really see the Tower as hexagram 2 line 6 (specifically line 6) because the discription is so apt: when the inferior (yin/earth) tries to rise up and hold an equal position with the superior (yang/heaven)this seems to be talking exactly the same story.
P.
 

mick

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Pagan,

Yes, I'm sure that in readings the Death card could well represent physical death. Especially if next to 10 of Swords and XVI Tower.

It's a very delicate ethical question though of how you approach this in a reading.

I take great care to show the querent the Death card before the reading begins and say, "If this card turns up, it doesn't mean that someone is going to die."

I take extra-special care if it's their first-ever Tarot reading.

Mercury is currently retrograde in Sagittarius so my mind is not at its sharpest at the moment.

Have a peaceful Winter Solstice and talk to you in January.

Best wishes,

Mick
 
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This is a fascinating topic. I have used the Tarot for years and only recently came to I Ching. Being more familiar with the Tarot, I have often equated certain cards with individual hexes, and when I can make that correlation it gives me a better understanding of both. When I first started, I immediately connected 4 with the Fool and 51 with the Tower, just my own personal perspective.

I also sometimes use the Tarot to help my understand my I Ching answer. If I am not sure of the reading, it sometimes helps to pose the same question to the Tarot and then compare the answers. Depends on the question though, not all questions that can be asked of Yi can be asked through the Tarot.

For individual correlations, you were talking about Death, what about 23? I have always seen Death as transformation and 23 is about stripping away appearances and doing away with the old. I initially connected it with 49, but I agree that 49 is too strong to be Death.

Anyways, excellant topic
 

pagan

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Hi Seeker,
This is a subject that I never get tired of.

Did you read the thread on hex 23 going on right now? Here is part of a post there:
"Hexagram 23 when viewed in its entirety is the cycle of destruction (and its true, inherently neither good nor bad)...in reading this line over the years I detected in myself a denial of the potential of this hexagram to indicate destruction and potential death. This was part of a denial of the power that the Changes could reflect. I mean no one wants to ask an innocent question and see this reading. ("There I was minding my own business and the divination says my world will fall apart, blah, blah). "
I thought that really applied to this thread. And another post talked about "sex and death" as similar kinds of meditation.

Death, if you analyze it, is about natural decay, and something outliving its useful purpose. It is also connected to separation of body and spirit. In another sense it is total change. So I guess it depends on how you are looking at death for exactly which hexagram or tarot card applies. In light of hexagram 23, it seems that the whole build up to line 4, where the penetration comes closer and is more insidious from line one on up is a very good view of Death in general. The bed of hex 23 might even be equated to the soul.

I also like to throw astrology into the analysis. Pluto is the Lord of death and it is often described as something that you can see coming from far away but can't not stop or alter its course. You know it means an overwhelming experience that you simply cannot avoid, you are helpless and hopeless to avoid its inevitable visit in your life. Death also has the association to Scorpio and Pluto as 'pooling of resources' in that the individual dies to his separateness and becomes one with the whole again. In sex, he dies to his individuality and becomes one with a partner, or as in subjects like insurance and taxes, one's separate individual resources are pooled for a larger whole. It is interesting that sex, death and taxes are all ruled by Pluto and Scorpio, and they have this 'inevitable' feeling of something that 'comes due' at a predetermined point. (like puberty or April 14th 'tax deadline'.)

Pluto and Scorpio are also about revenge and retribution for evil, like Purgatory. Also purging and elimination and so hexagram 23 in terms of elimination and purging might fit with 'splitting apart'. But on another note, I see a strong Pluto, Scorpio connection to hexagram 57 as well. Hexagram 57 is about forgetting the self in favor of the larger unity. (especially lines 3 and 4.)


I am wondering what card (s) would you relate to hexagram 47?
P.
 

mick

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Pagan,

Do you want to have another look at possible correspondences between Tarot and the I Ching?

Karen Witter links Hx 47 to the Wheel of Fortune.

Wilhelm on p.181 talks about remaining cheerful despite all danger. On p.182 Wilhelm says,

"When the water has flowed out below, the lake must dry up and become exhausted. That is fate. This symbolizes an adverse fate in human life."

This does remind me of the Wheel of Fortune representing life's ups and downs.

Wilhelm says that in the time of Hx 47, there's nothing you can do but go with your fate and remain true to yourself.

What do you think?

Best wishes,

Mick
 

pagan

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Hi Mick,
Perhaps the wheel of fortune reversed is a good correlate to hexagram 47, because in both cases we are trapped in a gloomy fate and we are not talking about good fortune. But I really feel a strong correlation between the Hanged Man card and hexagram 47. In both cases we are pretty hopeless to do anything but endure an adverse outer condition that only time itself will rectify.
P.
 

gene

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There are so many ways to relate the Tarot to the I Ching. I can see the logic behind 47 and the Wheel. I see other types of correlation too, hexagram 55 with the Wheel also. On both symbols, we have reached the top, or are about to, but the wheel keeps turning, and what was up will soon be down, and vice versa.

Gene
 

gene

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It is difficult to talk about one to one correspondences as the cards and the symbols have so many levels of meaning. And in the I Ching, (and the Tarot too) we have hexagrams that have meanings that are very similar in some respects to meanings of other hexagrams. For example, 56 and 62 in some ways have a similarity of meaning. Both have a base that implies no movement, but an upper trigram that implies a great deal of movement. Both indicate we have to have a home base, but in hexagram 56 there is a tendency to spread ourselves too thin, where in 62 we have a tendency to try to rise too high. Both get too far away from their home base, and bring trouble on themselves for doing so. In that way, both of them could have some correlation with the Tarot trump, the Tower. But that is only on one level. There are so many levels of meaning in both systems. I do not believe it is wise to get stuck into the though pattern that this means this, and that means that.

Gene
 

mick

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Pagan/Gene,

I actually find that Karen Witter's system is very useful in my Tarot readings.

The cross-pollination of ideas just gives me another angle on the Tarot cards.

Everybody's different and I can totally understand why you'd not be interested in one-to-one correspondences.

I don't feel that the Hanged Man is exhausted. He's just waiting. He sees the world differently to others. I think that the Hanged Man fits well with Hx 38. His viewpoint is fundamentally different from everyone else's.

Hx 38 Wilhelm p.148, "Thus amid all fellowship the superior man retains his individuality".

And the judgement for Hx 47 is actually quite positive, Wilhelm p. 181 "Success. Perseverance. The great man brings about good fortune."

Wilhelm then says, "Times of adversity are the reverse of times of success, but they can lead to success if they befall the right man."

That reminds me of the Wheel of Fortune. Life's ups and downs.

Anyway, as I say, everyone's approach is different.

Bye for now.

Best wishes,

Mick
 

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