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Questions about third persons

t_30

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I am a complete novice to I-ching and just learning to interpret the readings. I was little confused if I can ask questions about things happening in third persons [my son, husband or parents or anyone] life? How does I-ching interprets the question? And how should i frame such questions? I am sorry if I am bringing up a very obvious subject.
 

peace66

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Help with questions...

Hi T 30!
Go to I Ching Resources at this site to sign up for the free e-mail I Ching Course and
go to Practical I Ching at this site to find a directory of questions.
And Welcome To This Community!!
Peace:)
 
J

jimnammack

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Hi, there. There are no rules. Ask any question about anything at any time, and phrase it in whatever manner is your whim. You will get a fantastic response through the I Ching every time.

Some diviners have preferred ways of asking divinatory questions, and that works fine for them. For example, some diviners do not like to ask yes or no kinds of questions. I ask yes or no questions all the time, and I receive beautifully informative answers through the I Ching every time. Basically, I think you should do whatever you find makes you feel good. Only you can decide that.

There are a couple of practical things to keep in mind, however. One is that if you ask about a person that you are involved with, such as a friend, family member, neighbor, or whatever, parts of the answer you receive might well refer to you, with other parts of your answer referring to the person you asked about. So, you need to be alert to what part of your divinitory answser is referring to whom. Sometimes it is easy to tell, and sometimes not so easy.

Whenever you have trouble figuring out the meaning of a divination you did, do a follow-up divination about it to help you sort it out.

Another practical consideration has to do with asking two-pronged questions. If you ask, for example, "Should I look for a new job, or stay where I am?" you will have a difficult or impossible time telling which part of your divinatory answer refers to which part of your question. You usually will find it more useful to ask about one thing at a time. Ask for example, "If I start looking for a new job, what will happen?" Or, "Should I start looking for a new job?" Or, "How should I best go about finding a new job?"

Sometimes I ask two-pronged questions on purpose just to see if I can figure out the answer. Sometimes I can, and sometimes I cannot. When I cannot, I ask the question again in the way that I just recommended to you.

To learn as quickly as possible, I recommend using the I Ching lots and lots at all times. Also, I would personally recommend that you study whatever books about the I Ching you can lay your hands on. Some are better than others, of course. You will be able to tell the difference for yourself soon enough.

Keep the faith.

Jim
 

willowfox

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Ask anything you like about anyone or anything.

"Do as you like, shall be the whole of the law, providing you harm no one by your actions"
 

sophie

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Willowfox said it - your rule of thumb in all divination should be: do no harm. That leaves you a fair bit of leeway. Jim's given you some good ideas on asking questions (yes and no questions work for me too, but not for everyone). I will add - it's worth taking your time formulating your question, not only so that the answers make more sense, but also, to help you understand your own mind. Sometimes, in the process of working out a question, the answer will become apparent, and you won't need to ask the Yi for further guidance.

I also think you need to ask yourself - why do you need to know something about someone else. There is a lot of difference between asking the Yi about a friend who has gone missing and whom you are worried about, and asking an idle question about your neighbours' marriage because you happened to hear them quarrelling one night. In the latter instance, unless you are genuinely concerned, the Yi might also tell you to mind your own business (in my experience), because you are indulging in harmful gossip. But for questions of genuine concern, the Yi is very helpful.

My own practice is to ask first what I need to know about X (or X's health, happiness, work, family life, etc. depending on the area of worry), and then draw a second hexagram asking what I can do, if anything, to help X.
 

t_30

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Thanks

Thanks for the guidance. I want to ask IC about a close relative of mine whose marriage seems to be going through a very rough patch, I want to help them. But, I really dont know how to proceed. At the same time, I dont want to push too hard and make the situation irreversible.

To my question 'how should I approach with Mr. X' i got 21 with no changing lines. Does it mean that I should talk straight and harsh [which I want to do].

Yesterday, I asked 'what is the situation here' I got 29.5.6 --> 4 [I read somewhere here that 29 for marriage is a bad situation, 4 seem to suggest that I have asked too many questions already]

Assuming that if I talk to Mr. X in a little harsh way [like either mend your ways or separate from Mrs. X] and he chooses to separate, I asked an indirect question
'is my relationship with Mr. X going to deteriorate badly', I got 30.1 --> 56.

I am confused, what it all means. Can someone help?
 

willowfox

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Hex 21 says when there is an obstacle in the marriage then something should be done about it right away. Therefore, you should go and talk with Mr.X before any more damage is done but don't be too strong with your words, I think firm is right here. Don't let the situation go any further down hill.

Hex 29.5,6 > 4 it would seems Mr.X wants more from the marriage then he is getting, so now he feels that he is being fenced in and unable to move, to do what he wants to do. I suppose you could say that he is acting like a child.

Hex 30.1 > 56 if Mr.X separates from Mrs.X then you can expect him to become a stranger to you, therefore, consider where you want this marriage to end up before being overly harsh with Mr.X, I think best to moderate your approach.
 
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sophie

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Hi again, t_30,

21 suggests that the direct approach might be best. You need to bite the bullet, so to speak, and be very clear and unemotional in your approach, but not harsh.

29,5,6 > 4 suggests that the marriage is in danger, though at the moment, things are evened out - however, Mr X feels boxed in and unable to move in the marriage. It's leading to some rather juvenile behaviour. I don't know what he's been doing, but "sowing his wild oats" comes to mind. It suggests this is a necessary learning experience for him (and possibly for his wife).

30, 1 > 56 - this suggests some confusion in his reaction to you, and some attempt at dominating his own emotions by going his own way, if he should decide to separate. This is not necessarily permanent, but he will seek some time away from familiar people.

Altogether, it looks like Mr X is in for some soul-searching, which could well be provoked by your straight-talking. At that point, I think your role will have ended, at least for the time being.

I would ask a final question of the Yi - is it wise and timely for you to intervene?

Sophie
 
J

jimnammack

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T 30:

I like Willowfox's quote, but my experience with the I Ching is different from Sophie's. I am a strong believer in total freedom at all times and in all things. If you want to use the I Ching to poke your nose into someone else's business, I say go for it! I am not saying that Sophie's approach is wrong, for her approach makes her feel comfortable with herself, and so for her she is totally correct. For me, however, that would be totally incorrect. To paraphrase Willowfox's maxim: If it harms none, then what the hell!

My gut response to your trying to help someone with something as volatile and personal as a marriage problem is to say, Forget it! Mind your own business! But, let's see what the I Ching says.

You got Hexagram 29, The Abysmal (Water). The Abysmal is a place of great danger, but there is not so much danger there that success is impossible. In other words, the situation asked about could go either way. To find out which way it is going to go for you, we need to look at the rest of the divination.

For moving line 5, my interpretation is that you are being told to extricate yourself from this situation. Do not get involved, in other words.

Moving line 6 seems to loudly confirm it. You are being told here that if do try to get involved in this situation, it will backfire on you in a very bad way.

The concluding hexagram, 4, explains why. This is the hexagram of Youthful Folly. It speaks of youthful obtuseness, but says that confusion transforms into subsequent enlightenment. You are being told here, it seems to me, that you need to develop greater wisdom and expertise with this sort of counseling before you can expect to succeed. In the part of the explanation referring to someone asking three times and being given no answer for one's impertenance, it is referring to what you can personally expect in this situation, and is definitely not telling you avoid consulting the I Ching. This part of the hexagram explanation is telling you that no matter how hard you try with these people, your words will fall on deaf ears. Moving line 6 of Hexagram 29 goes even further, of course, telling you that there will be hell to pay.

This hexagram of Youthful Folly is also telling you that you have the innate capacity for helping people with problems of this sort, and that someday, if you have a strong interest in this direction, you might make an excellent counselor of some kind. But, for the situation that concerns you here in the present, I think you are definitely being told to steer clear.

Jim
 

sophie

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I like Willowfox's quote, but my experience with the I Ching is different from Sophie's. I am a strong believer in total freedom at all times and in all things. If you want to use the I Ching to poke your nose into someone else's business, I say go for it! I am not saying that Sophie's approach is wrong, for her approach makes her feel comfortable with herself, and so for her she is totally correct. For me, however, that would be totally incorrect. To paraphrase Willowfox's maxim: If it harms none, then what the hell!
I also apply the maxim - do no harm. But you see, I think idle gossip is harmful. It harms the one indulging in it, and it harms the subject of the gossip. Nothing we do is without consequence on the spiritual level - that's one of the spiritual laws we have to live with - in fact, one of the physical laws, since all action has a reaction. Idle gossip is never purposeless, either. If the intent is good, then that's one thing. I also think that interference in other people's business should be undertaken very very carefully, because even good intent can result in terrible mistakes made. That is where the Yi can help the most - to help us understand our intent, and also, the consequences of our actions. Because all of them have consequences.
 

Trojina

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T 30:

I like Willowfox's quote, but my experience with the I Ching is different from Sophie's. I am a strong believer in total freedom at all times and in all things. If you want to use the I Ching to poke your nose into someone else's business, I say go for it!
Jim


Total freedom in all things at all times huh ? Murder, rape theft ?

Hmm well i guess you did didn't quite mean that but I need to straighten out one thing with those here who keep going on about freedom and such.

I don't object to people asking questions about others for no good reason, its not morally wrong - it can't be cos I don't think it even works - so its not wrong, just pointless.

The Yi is an intelligence and i don't believe it supports negative motives at all, so the querant just flails about thinking they are getting answers when they are not.

I think the Yi answers always support the highest action or motive you can take , so helpful answers come when you ask to understand a relationship with another or wish to help them in some way. But asking about someones elses marriage for example for no reason - geez why would would anyone do that anyway - peeping tom behaviour i think, distasteful, like rifling through someones possessions without them knowing.

Again not wrong just pointless - meaningless answers or answers that point back at the questioner
 
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jimnammack

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Sophie:

I agree in part with what you said about idle gossip. But, I look at it a little differently. To my mind, gossip is basically neutral. It is how people use it that makes it either good or bad. For example, in established neighborhoods it is only natural that the residents have an interest in each other, and if, for example, the parents at one home have a son who just graduated from college and has accepted a job in another state, that is interesting news that will be circulated throughout the community. This sort of thing is extremely healthy, in my opinion. The circulation of information such as that is glue that helps maintain a cohesive neighborhood. On the other hand, if neighbors are spreading negative misinformation about someone, then that is extremely harmful.

But, for doing I Ching divinations, I do not think that the word gossip applies one way or another. If I were in T 30's shoes, and I was curious about how that couple will weather their marital problems, I would not hesitate to use the I Ching to find out. A divination would only be gossip if T 30 then passes along divinatory information to others. If he does not pass that divinatory information along to anyone else, then I do not understand how it could be considered as gossip.

There is another matter concerning gossip and divining that I would like to touch on.
When I do readings for others, confidentiality is everything. When someone comes to me for a reading, and someone else knows about it and later asks me what transpired, I never give them even a hint. I tell them to ask the person I did the reading for. I don't care if the person I did the reading for wants to share that information or not, but no one will never learn anything from me about the reading. So, if one is doing readings for others, I would say that confidentiality should be a number one priority at all times. In fact, when I am doing readings for couples, I always insist that they split up during the reading, with the one I am doing the reading for seated with me in my den, while the other is temporarily but comfortably seated in my living room, away from earshot. They can share that divinatory information with each other later if they wish. But they may not eavesdrop on each other's readings while they are in progress.

So, if that is the sort of thing you are referring to, then I agree with you 300 percent.

Jim
 

Trojina

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. If I were in T 30's shoes, and I was curious about how that couple will weather their marital problems, I would not hesitate to use the I Ching to find out. Jim

:confused: Why would you do that ? I really don't get that - I mean its nothing to do with you is it ? Why can't you wait and see how the marriage works out in the course of time ? Personally I would never ask such a question - but I consider others marriages their business and theirs alone.

When I read T30s question I wondered why she thought she could save someone elses marriage - though i expect if its a close relative she was thinking of being emotionally supportive or something maybe - but even then I regard my close relatives marriage as their business definately not mine.
 

sophie

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It's no so much about the marriage itself that I read T_30's question, but about what T_30 could do (if anything), to help a close relative.

I have a sister who is in an unhappy marriage. She stays in it. I have, on occasion, turned to the Yi to ask what I could do to help her during a crisis, though I have no need to ask about the marriage - it is quite obviously not a happy one. Sometimes the Yi has told me to keep my distance, and stay discreet but receptive. Sometimes, to go forward and speak my mind. A marriage is a business between two people, not three, but sometimes, you need to understand a situation in order to help someone who is in it.

BTW, I don't think good intent alone is sufficient, when it comes to interfering with other people's lives, even our nearest and dearest. A well-intentioned meddler can cause great harm. One reason I rely on the Yi in such circumstances is precisely that the Yi will tell me if it is timely for me to intervene or not.


Jim - I see what you mean about news-style gossip being the glue of a community. But delving into people's private lives with the Yi is - as Trojan said - a bit like going through their private papers, so it's something else altogether. Can the Yi answer such questions? Trojan believes not, others believe it can, and I am inclined to side with them - but I will add that the Yi will sometimes chide you as it answers, and will not give you more than you need to know.

As I wrote before, I start all third party questions with: "what do I need to know about X" - that way, I am accepting the fact that the Yi might tell me I need to know nothing at all.
 

t_30

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That's an interesting turn the discussion has taken. I myself, strictly believe in MYOB [Mind your own business]. However, what if the people involved are so close to you that it practically becomes your business. What if any turbulence in their lives is going to effect your own life in some way or the other. You are thus Emotionally involved in the situation yourself and not just playing an outside counselor.
 

Trojina

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I think if you have a genuine need to ask then ask away -
 
J

jimnammack

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For those who do not want to consult the I Ching about other people, do not. For me, I sometimes do, and I receive flawlessly informative answers through the I Ching every time. I impose no boundaries on what I ask about, and neither does the I Ching. I fervently believe that all people should feel free to ask whatever divinatory question they want to ask at any time and for any reason. And, I fervently believe we should not try to control others by trying to impose our own personal taboos on them.

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree. If some of you do not want to ask personal divinatory questions about others, that is truly fine with me. I have no problems with that at all. For myself, however, I will never impose any restrictions on how I am able to learn and grow through the I Ching. And as I said, all my divinatory questions so far, and there have been tens of thousands of them, seem to have been hunky-dorey with the I Ching. By extension, I will never, when encouraging others in the use of the I Ching, advise them to restrict how they learn and grow through this oracle either.

I need no justification whatsoever to myself, to the I Ching, or to anyone else for asking any question that I please. If something peaks my sense of curiosity, I will often use the I Ching to satisfy that curiosity. End of story.

Jim
 

Trojina

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. I impose no boundaries on what I ask about, and neither does the I Ching. I fervently believe that all people should feel free to ask whatever divinatory question they want to ask at any time and for any reason. And, I fervently believe we should not try to control others by trying to impose our own personal taboos on them.

Jim

This shows you missed the point I was trying to make. You interpret my POV as trying to 'control others'. Thats absurd because i cannot and neither do I want to ! No one here has ever really said certain questions were 'not allowed' - its just how you choose to interpret whats been said, kind of like a knee jerk reaction a blind panic at some imagined loss of freedom. .

Sure lets drop the subject but please don't interpret my POV as coming from a wish to control, thats simplifying it and dismissing it simultaneously. Um and I can't see that respecting someones privacy is a taboo.
 
J

jimnammack

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Trojan:

I assure you that I am in no panic whatsoever.

If you do not allow yourself to do certain kinds of divinations, then those restricted divinations are "not allowed." Right?

If you try to persuade someone else to adopt those same restrictions, even if you do so with completely good intentions, then you are trying to convince that person to not allow himself or herself to do the same kind of divinations. Right?

I'm just saying that I do not use restrictions to guide the divinations I do, and I do not encourage others to adopt restrictions to guide the divinations they do.

That is all I was trying to get across.

I apologize for getting you angry.

Jim
 

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