Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
1.2 seems to me like a beautiful way of describing reading great spiritual books. You "see the great man" -- the writers, and/or your own potential self -- and enter into fellowship with them (13). Enormous creative potential.
. . could also be that the Yi was pointing at your fellowship with it (if you include it in your category of 'spiritual books')
Maybe it's as spiritual as you make it?
I don't think of the Yi as a spiritual book. I think of it as a tool, an instrument. . . . I think in itself it's more pragmatic than spiritual. Having said that, I've often seen each of the hexagrams as spiritual lesson to be learned in life - Maybe it's as spiritual as you make it?
All Hail Dobro
The First Enlightened Onion ever
(or he will be when hes read all the books and if someone doesn't use him in a sandwhich first )
I don't think it matters to the I Ching what kinds of questions we ask -- but it's important that the translations we use are up to the task of helping us interpret the answers we receive.
Whenever I ask the I Ching a spiritual question, I'm sure to look at the Stephen Karcher translation, first published in 2003. The older texts, the Legge, W/B, and the Blofeld, are also stronger in the spiritual area, but not with the depth of the Karcher.
This says something about the nature of the Yi, I think. It's not carved in stone. It's written in hearts. Or something.
The I Ching is a language - a primitive form when compared to the precision of words but also a holistic form that allows for an immediate, if but at times vague, depth in communication often missed by words or else requiring too much 'wordyness' (words being serial in form, grounded in partials summed to elicit a whole whereas the emotional content of images allows for a holistic experience - combine the two and you have high precision communication covering the serial and the parallel etc)
As a language the I Ching is self-referencing and so can describe/represent anything you like, including itself, and including all classes of consciousness and so all possible differences in interpretations.
Can it go beyond thought? How?
If by thought you mean directed thinking then the focus on mythic thinking and use of symmetry and sensory experiences. Those experiences come in the form of secondary harmonics and as such as colours, chords, smells etc. The standard response to secondary harmonics (and so frequencies) is basic emotion - as such we can resonate with a moment; our basic emotions allow for parallel communication. (secondary emotions then add local details where secondary emotions are dependent on our sense of self for their definition)
The issues with this basic resonance is that, being grounded in symmetry, it is biased to SAMENESS and as such is sensitive to a CLASS of experience rather than the nuances of an INSTANCE of a class.
The nature of the I Ching hexagrams etc is in being able to represent these classes and as such represent 'wholes' as it can 'parts'. It is then consciousness, our particular nature, that can ground the class in the details of an instance.
The IDM work in meaning derivation has identified a property of symmetry where recursion of a dichotomy, in this case yang/yin, will elicit the trigrams and hexagrams but also bring out a property of recursion, a phase transition, that 'magically' converts the literal classes of meanings into figurative forms and so able to be used as language.
In the EIC this is the XOR work (the tables in each hexagram description) where each hexagram is describable by analogy to all of the other hexagrams. Sure we use words to flesh out the details but the holistic element is still there - I can XOR hexagram 24 with any other hexagram and get the expression of 24 THROUGH a context described by that other hexagram - where the expression is in the form of analogy to another hexagram. Thus we get the I Ching to describe itself by reference to itself - the beginnings of hexagram 01 are tied to characteristics of hexagram 44; the developing single-mindedness focus starts off with acts of persuasion/seduction:
whole - 01
aspect - 24
expression - 44
111111 (01)
100000 (24)
-------- XOR
011111 (44)
Since the I Ching is considered as a filtering system and so able to map 'all there is', its language element allows for finer details to be extracted and meditated upon using emotions alone (and so mapped to sensory secondary harmonics).
The HARD CODING of this covers the hard-coding of our neurology where its processing of sensory data introduces local context variations of hard coded classes of meanings - wholeness is wholeness but in different contexts it can take on different forms and cultural differences can mean what is a whole for you is a dynamic relationship for me!
Thus we can use a hexagram to represent a context, a whole, and then use all of the other hexagrams to give us finer details on the properties (Form) and methods (process) of that whole. We can focus on sensory experiences or on the use of high precision in the form of words (and the actual methodology is grounded in basic dynamics of our brain grounded in use of logic operators).
What is important to understand is the issues with symmetry where instance/class can be confused. Being able to recognise such then aids in understanding the general and the particular.
In reply to dobro's question , "Can it go beyond thought?"
The human energy anatomy is constructed to receive and process energies from the whole universe . The human is a transmitter of the energies it receives from all levels of the cosmos or "multiverse." The human has many centers or "bodies" that relate to all the levels of universe. The physical body is neither the whole human nor is the human isolated from the life of the rest of universe.
The I Ching is a metaphorical representation of an ancient knowledge teaching, from which all cultures have developed sciences, religions and arts.
The materialistic science of neurology has no understanding of the structure of the human being or the energies with which it functions.
The cultivation of the science of working with different energies requires practice and the engagement of the many centers in the human being which the rational mind cannot access.
The human energy anatomy is constructed to receive and process energies from the whole universe . The human is a transmitter of the energies it receives from all levels of the cosmos or "multiverse." The human has many centers or "bodies" that relate to all the levels of universe. The physical body is neither the whole human nor is the human isolated from the life of the rest of universe. It is a functioning part of a whole, which is always changing in time according to evolutionary laws of creation and destruction, more precisely, thae interaction of the three principles of positive, negative and neutralizing or passive,active and reconciling. Energy flows both upward and downward and the process is both symmetric and asymmetric.There is always present the principle of hazard, for three forces are involved - the positive, negative and neutralizing. In Taoism this is represented as Yin, Yang and Tao.
The I Ching is a metaphorical representation of an ancient knowledge teaching, from which all cultures have developed sciences, religions and arts.
The materialistic science of neurology has no understanding of the structure of the human being or the energies with which it functions.
Interpreting the meaning of the I Ching's metaphors and symbols based on a false conception of the human structure and functioning results in a rationalistic caricature that has no reality.
There is no basis for relating brain study to the language of the I Ching.
The precise interactions experienced with different energies at any time by the human being are not limited to or described by what you call sensory impressions or emotions.
Myth, ritual and art are only representations of actual processes that occur in the life of the human as a part of an evolving universe.
The cultivation of the science of working with different energies requires practice and the engagement of the many centers in the human being which the rational mind cannot access.
There's another possibility, too.
There's a possibility, and it's a strong one, that the Yi was saying: "No, you don't need spiritual books. Reality is starting to come into its own in your life. You need a spiritual teacher, complete with sangha."
So why did no one see that possibility? Probably because everyone interpreted in terms of what they were already familiar with (or didn't interpret at all, or changed the subject, which is what their personalities are familiar with). In other words, the Yi tells you nothing that you're not ready to hear.
So, now I've got two really plausible interpretations. How to proceed?
There's another possibility, too.
There's a possibility, and it's a strong one, that the Yi was saying: "No, you don't need spiritual books. Reality is starting to come into its own in your life. You need a spiritual teacher, complete with sangha."
So why did no one see that possibility? Probably because everyone interpreted in terms of what they were already familiar with (or didn't interpret at all, or changed the subject, which is what their personalities are familiar with). In other words, the Yi tells you nothing that you're not ready to hear.
So, now I've got two really plausible interpretations. How to proceed?
Lloyd:That is not my problem, it is your problem. If scientific perspectives do a '59', lift the fog of ancient, over-metaphorised, perspectives, that is a fact one has to deal with. You can dig-in and fight the change or adapt.
Sure, okay. So, going one step beyond the physical body we have the mental body with its thoughts and some of the higher emotions perhaps. Going one step beyond the mental body (beyond thought, in other words), we have what I'll choose to call the conscious body. Just consciousness, free of thoughts, emotions, and sensations. I know it exists, cuz that's what my deep meditation is. So let's talk about that body. My question now is: Can the Yi usefully operate at the level of the conscious body. I'd say no, and here's why: the Yi registers in the human mind via images and words. Images and words are the furniture of the mental body. Without images and words, the Yi communicates not at all, it seems to me.
If it's a representation, then it represents via images and words, as I said above, and images and words are at the level of thought, not beyond it.
(snip)
Sure, but can the Yi operate at the level of those energies? How could it, when it communicates to us via the mind, that is, on a level other than those energies?
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).