Reading with I ching Oracle Cards

[remod]

Odds Schmodds. :]
That the 'odds part' must apply to our readings only exists in our minds.
[...]
Our readings are not really dependant to 'odds' [...]

To me, the odds of a method influence the way the oracle can articulate the response.

Please note that this has nothing to do with the response being random, being a reflection of our self or being inspired by the divine. Whatever the source of the response, the 4096 hexagrams compose the language to express such a response.

The three coins method reduces this expressiveness because the response no longer can assume that yin lines are less mutable than yang lines (as implied by the yarrow stalk method).
Methods that produce a single moving line, restrict the set of hexagrams to 3072 instead of 4096.
And so on...
Modifying the odds changes the set of symbols that compose your answer.

We can discuss if having more or less expressiveness is a good or a bad thing but saying that odds play no role in that seems a little too much to me.

If odds had no role it would mean that regardless of the method, I should be able to receive a meaningful response, right? So what if I use this method:

1. Throw a coin:
   1. if it's head, draw a yin line
   2. if it's tail throw the coin again
2. Repeat until you have six lines.

The odds of this method are 0% for yang lines, 100% for yin lines and no mutable lines. This means that I forced the oracle to use only one hexagram out of 4096.
Personally, I won't be able to properly understand the responses I would get with this method.

Please note that while in my stretched example it's easy to see what's wrong, I've seen descriptions of I Ching methods that rule out entire sets of hexagrams without any warning and online generators that would only produce a few dozens of hexagrams, again without telling it to anyone.

To me, a method to be acceptable must guarantee that at least each of the 64 base hexagams have the same odds.

In the end, to me, odds matter because I want to know if those 5 moving lines are there because there is a special significance or they are there just because the method is skewed towards producing more moving lines.

Again, please note that this has absolutely nothing to do with what or who produces the response. It only has to do with the ability to properly understand the response.

 

[tacrab]

A problem with cards (same as opening book itself randomly) is that they are prone to physical "shaping" by the user.

 

[surnevs]

Hi Liselle, Yes, or like the method very similar given by Zhu Xi *)

[etc. etc. ]

2-5-6-2-2-1 = 8-7-8-8-8-7
3-6-3-4-1-6 = 7-8-9-6-7-6 Throwing then the Die until 3, 4 or 6 dots shows up
etc. etc. etc.

In the hurry, I forgot to add, according to the procedure attached in #19, the extra-throws after the matches. The above (marked in red) should of cause be written:
2-5-6-2-2-1 = 8-7-8-8-8-7
3-6-3 & 5 - 4 & 2 - 1- 6 & 4 = etc. etc. to example

One last example: 1 & 4 - 3 - 1 - 3 - 5 & 3 - 2 = 6 - 7 - 7 - 7 - 9 - 8, and then throwing the Die until 1 or 5 eyes shows up

____________________________
*) On sect. III pg. 47 in this pdf: Explaining the Milfoil Stalks
**) From https://www.biroco.com/yijing/basics.htm

 

[remod]

A problem with cards (same as opening book itself randomly) is that they are prone to physical "shaping" by the user.

I agree. It's a common flaw of having to manipulate a few objects. The problem I see in using a book is different since a book provides a "reference" (the start and the end of the book) and this greatly reduces the choices you can make to generate a "random" outcome.

To minimize the possibility of keeping track (consciously o unconsciously) of the status of the cards (and, hence, influence the outcome) in many cases I considered the orientation and used both the front of the back of the card.
This way a single double-sided card provides 4 possible outcomes (up+front down+front up+back down+back).
Two double-sided cards provide 32 possible outcomes (4 for the first card multiplied 4 for the second card multiplied 2 for the relative position).
The three single-sided cards in the previous message, using only the cards' orientation and relative position, provide 48 possible outcomes (2x2x2 multiplied by the relative positions 3x2x1).
Four single-sided cards provide 384 possible outcomes; four double-sided cards provide 6144 outcomes.
The more the cards, the more the outcomes up to the point that it's almost impossible (or at least very difficult) to "drive" the process to one of the outcomes, even unconsciously. Of course, the more the cards the more complicated the entire process is, so one should find the right balance.

That said, I agree 100% with you that when using cards one must be very careful to not influence the casting process.

 

[tacrab]

I should modify my comment about cards and books: They are physically modified by use in tangible and visible ways. Who knows, when shaking coins, what causes them to flip or not, or shed molecules here and there!

 

[Paula R]

I'll be happy to share, below the list of the methods I feel worth trying. If you want to try any of them let me know, I will dig my hard disk to find the hi-res images and will post them here.

• The seven identical cards that keep track of the forming hexagram (no need to have pen and paper at hand). I posted them here on Clarity but you can also see them on my site. Those are the ones that I like the most and regularly use. I had the design printed as business cards for very cheap.
• The eight cards that produce one trigram at the time. I don't have them on my site but you can find them in my older post here on Clarity.
• The four cards I just described in the previous message in this thread.
• The three cards single-sided method I'm about to describe now.

Three cards method:
View attachment 4189
View attachment 4190
View attachment 4192
To cast a line, you shuffle and rotate them at will then you spread them as shown below:
View attachment 4193

If the two black ideograms on the top left are the same as the two red ideograms close to a line, you got that line, otherwise you got the other one. (in the example above you got a 9 because the ideograms are different).
This method produce lines with the yarrow stalks odds.

Just let me know if you want them, I'm sure I have the files somewhere on my HD.

Anyways, those cards can also be easily drawn with a marker, as the four cards in the previous message. Any four different symbols will work as long as they are placed as shown in the pictures.

Sounds really interesting, did you also draw the ideograms? I would find that part a bit difficult to draw. I could do the set of lines though...

 

[Paula R]

Hi surnevs. The post I made some time ago shows two card decks that do exactly what you say: they produce IChing lines exactly as you would do with the three coins or the yarrow stalks methods.
On my site there is a method that uses the ace of hearts and the ace of spades, and others using other playing or tarot cards combination.
So I would say there are plenty of methods to use cards for I Ching divination.
For example, below is one of the methods I devised. It's a set of four cards that anyone can create very easily using a marker and some cardboard. Below, on the left the front and the back of each card, on the right the way you spread them to cast a single line:

View attachment 4188
Instead of 4 double-sided cards, one can create 4 single-sided cards, two of a type and two of the other type. An easy way would be to use 4 playing cards, glue some white paper on their front, and draw the dots and lines on them. Even easier to use blank business cards.

To cast a line, you shuffle, rotate, and flip (if double-sided) the four cards at will and then spread them as shown in the picture.
The line on the card tells you if it's yin or yang. If the number of the black dots on left top is the same as the number of the red dots on the card, it's a moving line (odds are the same as the yarrow stalks method).
In the picture above, the result would be a 9 as there are two black dots on the top left.

Those artistically gifted could decorate them to personalize them.

I liked your method with the aces, I think I'll try it. And I do have that same tarot deck you show, that I don't use. I will check which deck I find more clear to do the 'casting'. Thanks for sharing!

 

[remod]

Sounds really interesting, did you also draw the ideograms? I would find that part a bit difficult to draw.

Actually, I made all the cards with Inkscape and Gimp. I'm absolutely unable to make a straight line using a pencil (not to mention drawing a circle ).

 

[remod]

I liked your method with the aces, I think I'll try it. And I do have that same tarot deck you show, that I don't use. I will check which deck I find more clear to do the 'casting'.

If you try it, let me know. I really would love to heave your feedback. If something doesn't work for you I might come up with an alternative (or maybe not, but I'll try )

 

[Paula R]

I will be getting the I Ching Oracle deck on Tuesday 28th I guess, and then try all the methods proposed in this thread, with my deck, with playing cards or tarot, an then compare results. Then, of course, I will let you know and tell you about my modest conclusions

 

[remod]

I will be getting the I Ching Oracle deck on Tuesday 28th I guess, and then try all the methods proposed in this thread, with my deck, with playing cards or tarot, an then compare results. Then, of course, I will let you know and tell you about my modest conclusions

Hi Paula,
did you have the chance of trying your deck? How was it?

I'm curious to know how it turned out for you.

 

[ronbracale]

I have some cards and will sometimes just pick one and contemplate it for a short bit, not a serious casting, but enjoyable.

I prefer the 16 marble method, as it is easy, reach into a bag and select a marble, and repeat 6 times for a hexagram. It has the same odds as the Yarrow sticks. Three coins is not the right odds, but a 2 coin method is expounded on this site which does have the correct odds (took me 2 hours to verify as my math is rusty, but I assure you it is correct):

(6) 1 of 16 Changing Old Yin
(7) 5 of 16 Yang
(8) 7 of 16 Yin
(9) 3 of 16 Changing Old Yang

With the Yarrow stick odds, a changing Yang is three times more common than a changing Yin. This is vitally important and has a deep philosophical basis. I went on Etse and bought 12 mm crystal stones in 4 colors to replace my marbles...

Peace

 

[remod]

a 2 coin method is expounded on this site which does have the correct odds

Thanks to remind me of this, ronbracale. I had completely forgot to report it on my site. Added just now.