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Recommendations of I Ching translations

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blue_angel

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I have a question, does anyone know of a site or a book that is similar to what Charley has posted in Rosada's threads on Memorizing Iching? What I mean is the Chinese symbols are given and then the various English words are translated from those symbols. Since there are so many meanings.

The reason I ask is because sometimes I will get a reading or research for someone else's reading and the various commentaries don't always make a connection. Then I'll revisit the Memorizing thread. Unfortunately Charley is not on every single thread. I'll read through and think "oh man... No Charley here" lol. Its different and good when I have my own experience to connect and share. But I don't always have one.

Not that I don't appreciate the many commentaries written. I do, they just don't always connect the dots for me.

The other one I'm interested in... is, does (I believe its Frank R), have a site or is there one similar? I know one of the Frank's has passed on, but not sure if both have? Either way the Frank with the red rose as a profile picture. My interest is in how he would connect the chakras, meridians, etc.. And Frank R is also not in every Memorizing Thread. I really made a connection at times within myself with some of his translations and meanings.

While searching I have yet to find these kinds of books or these kinds of sites. 1. Chinese symbols translated to English. 2. Iching translated with a connection to chakras and meridians. Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough...
 

bradford

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It's important to realize that Chinese then is different than Chinese now. Also there are some very different takes on what Chinese was like back then. The modern academics want to narrow the possible meanings of old Chinese words, specifically to only those glosses which can be archeologically attested, and disallowing the context in which the words appear in the works to be translated. I personally favor an approach that acknowledges polysemy, that a language with so few words as Chinese, needs to see these words as being plump with implications and possible interpretations.
So if you are trying to understand Ancient or Old Chinese instead of modern, you want to get dictionaries that are compiled for working with the classics. Connections with chakras and meridians, or even Han Dynastyy metaphysical theories like 5 Phases and calendars, are going to be anachronistic and misleading.
 

jzy369

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Blue_angel:

Even if you can read/write Chinese proficiently, and have advanced degrees in Chinese, you will encounter different interpretations on I Ching's Chinese text. "Direct authentic text translation" may not lead to a desired outcome.

I did find a more effective way which I can share here. With today's internet, one can read/watch/listen to I Ching lessons/blogs from various respected I Ching scholars. They explain the text word by word, line by line, hex by hex. However, many of them still do not make sense. Your own life experiences can then be used to decide which version of the interpretation is correct. After going through this process, you will find lines within every hex are supporting a coherent story, depicting certain aspect of spiritual or material human life. If you see an interpreted/translated text that seems out-of-place for no logical reason, that interpreation is probably not as useful.

For example, when I studied was hex 15. Different forms of humility suddenly turns into "attack the enemy" by line 5. The Chinese scholar interpreations for this line are all over the place. Some even claims "attack" really means "not to attack" by putting comma in different locations! WTH? I thought deeply and related to my own professional/business experience when leading a large organization. Days later, I finally understood the wisdom that humility is one of the best way to "advance", not the "weak" or "subdued" images protraited in the Western world. Only then would I accept certain explaination of the hex 15 line 5.

Only after I went through all 64 hex in the span of a few years, I found my reading to be surprisingly more relevant and consistent than before.
 
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blue_angel

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Jzy369 I didn't ask for your experience with the Iching. I asked if anyone has any knowledge of books available that are similar to the posts Charley or Frank give in the threads. You seem to speak with many assumptions. I don't know what good assumptions do for you. But I can say from my experience, they don't do much for me. I have to wonder if you even read my post or understood it, in order to give the answer and feedback you gave. Anyhow, to each is to own. So far it looks like the answer is no. No one has any books or sites, that they can recommend, similar to Charley and or Frank's work.

Bradford I do appreciate the work you do and have done.
 
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sooo

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To me it's quite a mind bender. If contemporary Chinese is so different than when the original Yi was authored, and if each word is pregnant with possibilities due to so few actual words used, then it seems to me a lot is left up to imagination and ones own cognitive ability. I don't take Charly's direct attempts at translating word for word as gospel (poor comparison since the same dilemma presents itself there). If I did, it would be something of a theosophical Kama Sutra Yijing. There's usually a common thread between real translation attempts, a core value or meaning and several related implications, but finding two that translate word for word the same, unless one is just copying another, do not precisely agree. If it was as simple as translating a modern language, I think it would be very limited in scope and potential - both its and our own - would be lost. That's why when someone comes along with a positive "coding" of meaning for each gua and line, I don't pay much attention to it or them. There's simply too much going on in life and the world to narrow down to 64 absolute and exclusive meanings.
 
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blue_angel

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Hey Bruce,

I do understand what you're saying, and I agree with many of the points you made. Especially the part about taking Charley or anyone else's word as gospel. Definitely not. However, this is where my interest is right now. Read through Wilhelm, most of Legge, love LiSe, love Hilary, some of Bradford, etc... Love when I have my own experience and meaning.

Its like taking into consideration different pieces of a puzzle for me. Some pieces fit, some don't. But at times I found good interest in what Frank had written and would love to read more. Same with Charley. Sometimes their stuff resonates, some times it does not. Same with all the other commentaries and translations I've read. Sometimes I simply have to wait it out and see how the reading plays out to make a connection. Doesn't keep me from wanting to learn Chinese myself lol. And doesn't keep me from having interest in the type of work Frank (red rose) and Charley has done.
 
S

sooo

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Hi Blue Angel,

I understand what you mean, I think. It would be nice to walk away with a nice, clear knowing of exactly what the Yi is trying to tell us, instead of having to dig into our gray matter for clues. I can't help thinking that's what it was intended to do, however. But that's just my view.

Which Frank are you referring to? We've had more than one here. I'm not aware that either I'm aware of was a translator though. Maybe I missed something. I had never gelled with Keagan (rest his soul), but I enjoyed the bio knowledge of frank_r. He made more connections to the body and health than any other I've known of. There was Frank 'the hugger', but I don't recall much about him.

I love Charly, to be clear about that, and I enjoy his translations here, and I've missed him. But he, to me, is a good example of how someone's translation, though appearing quite black and white, still strongly reflects the mind of the translator. I honestly don't think there are any exceptions to that. Those with a strict or critical view, will reflect that nature in their translation. Those with an idealist or philosophical view, will reflect that in his or her translation. Those with a down-to-earth moderate view will reflect that in their translation.

There was a time when Hilary rode me to write a version, and she called it bullshit when I claimed that I don't think the world needs yet one more book or version about the I Ching. She said, well, I guess you write it here at Clarity then. I said, yes, I guess sooo.

I think understanding trigram relations is the best deciphering tool available to us. Yet some say trigrams came after hexagrams, a claim that remains contested. Imagine that, those who study it deeply contesting such a fundamental thing.
 
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blue_angel

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Hello Bruce,

One of the reasons I like Charley, is because sometimes "less is more". And I like some of his ideas, they spike some of my own creativity, or perhaps he gives room to open my mind up for more. I guess that's one of the reasons I like to read the lines Hilary gives. Less is more. Simple, basic, then I can think "what can this mean here". So I guess then I am looking for simple, basic, without all the extra. If you know what I mean. And since you mentioned a kama sutra yijing, would be fun and interesting to read, even if it didn't always apply.

I believe we both like the same Frank's work. That's one of the things I really liked about his work, he connected the mind, body, and spirit. I realize he did not give translations and that's OK, its his work I am interested in. I am not looking for straight and given answers. I am not looking for "it always means this". That's one of the very reasons I love this study because it is open. An open field that my mind and body can flow freely through. Its one of the reasons I love Taoism and cringe when a bible thumper comes along to tell me what my experience should be and how I should live it.

I also enjoy seeing the actual Chinese symbols and possible meanings in English words given. I realize they may not be exact. I'm OK with that. Sometimes Charley gives a little of something special, and I am able to see something I was not able to see before. And the funny thing about that, is sometimes what I see has nothing to do with his overall and actual interpretation. Then again it seems Charley gives possibility and leaves it open. I do not see his stuff as black and white. Or as " this is what it means" and can not mean anything else. I love those threads. But there is a number of you that I would've liked to see in everyone of those threads. Charley and Frank_r are just two of them. And I think it is good the feedback you give here, maybe better than writing a book. As an example, I actually enjoy some of the stuff that Bradford writes here more than his site. No offense Bradford.

Actually lol... Now that I've written all of this. Perhaps less would've been more.
 
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Trojina

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The other one I'm interested in... is, does (I believe its Frank R), have a site or is there one similar? I know one of the Frank's has passed on, but not sure if both have? Either way the Frank with the red rose as a profile picture. My interest is in how he would connect the chakras, meridians, etc.. And Frank R is also not in every Memorizing Thread. I really made a connection at times within myself with some of his translations and meanings.

While searching I have yet to find these kinds of books or these kinds of sites. 1. Chinese symbols translated to English. 2. Iching translated with a connection to chakras and meridians. Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough
You said jzy was making assumptions but it's not that clear what you were asking for. I read your first post a few times...It is a little confusing because how can there be sites similar to Frank's or Charlie's since both are one offs, unique takes. I know the Frank you mean....he was an acupuncturist I think.

At first, by looking at the thread title I thought you wanted to learn Chinese...which is a different thing from wanting sites like Charlie's :confused: see what I mean ? It's not that clear so I didn't think jz was making assumptions.

Anyway I have a copy of the Original I Ching Oracle by Ritsema and Sabbadini which gives numerous words for each Chinese word. Now and then it helps me...but I can see one could, given the number of english words that go under a Chinese word, be extremely creative in making meanings one would like to make. So I think there is obviously a lot more to a real translation than just having a dictionary and picking words out and saying 'here is my translation'. I think context of the hexagram is crucial and the meaning of the words change according to the context they are present in and that takes a lot of knowledge....which I don't have. I'm just saying there is a difference between having a dictionary and cobbling together a translation that suits one's view with the kind of translation that is based on far deeper knowledge of ancient Chinese and so on. So it wasn't so clear to me whether you actually wanted to learn Chinese OR you wanted a site like Charlie's or Franks, which being so unique I doubt exist.
 

Trojina

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Hang on I'm really confused now. Have you changed the thread title ? The thread title was "I want to learn Chinese" wasn't it ??? Now it's 'recommendations of translations' ?


Am I going mad ??
 
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blue_angel

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:rofl::rofl::rofl: not to worry. You are not going mad. Follow Blue_Angel enough though and you may just go mad! Now why are scenes going through my head from Alice In Wonderland... Cheshire Cat: "Which way would you like to go?" Alice: "It really doesn't matter" Cheshire Cat: "Well then it really doesn't matter, which way you go!" And then there's "Oh we're all a little mad!" :mischief:

Thank you for sharing Ritsema and Sabbadini. Do you find them to be unique at all? Either way, I will check them out to satisfy some of my curiosity. And yes, thread title changed.

stay to the simple, basic, point Blue_Angel before you drive everyone mad! :freak:

simple and basic

Simple and basic

Less is more

Less is more

Less is more...


:bounce:
 
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blue_angel

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I'll have to flip back through the threads, Frank r actually gave some information in one of his posts, of where one can find similar work to study. I think it was Ravenstar that had asked him. Although I can't be sure. Should have written it down. When I find it again, I'll post back here. As for Charley, I thought he had a site or a book. But I haven't been able to find it. Tuck is pretty good, at least to me. Idk what it is for anyone else. But for me, its clues and pieces to a greater puzzle. And I have so much fun playing with them.
 

Trojina

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Thank you for sharing Ritsema and Sabbadini. Do you find them to be unique at all?
It's a dictionary of a kind...unless there is a better word. The Chinese word is given and then all the words it might mean in English. Like this ;

Come . LAI: approach in time and space; move toward, arrive at; future; contrasts with go,
that's 'fields of meaning under one word in 29.

I can't make any judgement on it since it's beyond my scope of knowledge. It's not like just an I Ching book...it's the actual text of Yi with well 'fields of meaning' in English.

I don't ever refer to or use any of the people you mention in your last post at all.
 

bradford

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Here's Lai from my Glossary, which was compiled from sixteen different dictionaries.

lai2 來 3768 944a 9+6 05.6 (to) come, came, will come (with, to,
forward, back, closer), arrive (with), approach, appear, arise, show up, bring (about, with),
prompt, invite, encourage, draw, attract, move toward; emerge, take place, crop up (s, ed, ing);
(to be) attracted, brought about, drawn, enticed, encouraged; coming, emerging, emergent,
future, next, upcoming, approaching; (a, the) coming, arrival
 
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blue_angel

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That's great Bradford. Can I pick that up in my local library? Can I order it off Amazon? Is it available in paperback? And then again, do you have any other recommendations that are similar? Or recommendations that are unique, similar to the kind of work Frank r and Charley have done?
 

bradford

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That's great Bradford. Can I pick that up in my local library?
It's a free pdf download at my website (hermetic.info), in Yijing Volume Two.
There are paperbacks available, for those who have to have hard copy,
but the pdf version is searchable, which enables a concordance-like function
for finding all the uses of a word in the bilingual version (also Volume Two).
The glossary has all the words used five or more times, and an index for the rest
to Mathews and Karlgren.
 
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blue_angel

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Yes, I have downloaded it, in the past. Computer's crashed. I would still look it up on my phone but I simply don't want to have to download. Besides that, I enjoy holding a good book in my hand. I enjoy the smell. The feel of the pages. I could live in a library. Well, as long as there is a wide open field outside that library. I really can't stand sitting behind a computer screen for long periods of time, even when I must. Seems bad on the eyes and energy draining.
 

cjgait

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It's really quite easy BlueAngel. Study Chinese.

If you are looking for a translation and want to be all snarky to people who try to help you: Don't study Chinese.

Study Albanian instead and go take a long walk off a short pier.
 
S

sooo

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It's really quite easy BlueAngel. Study Chinese.

If you are looking for a translation and want to be all snarky to people who try to help you: Don't study Chinese.

Study Albanian instead and go take a long walk off a short pier.


 
S

sooo

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Yes, all Chinese woman know their place and are always perfect ladies.

Chinese lesson 101
 

charly

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Don´t worry

Dear Angel:

Little aggressions little minds. Don´t worry for it.

I encourage you to begin yourself the work that another people did begin time ago. The long of the way doesn´t matter, because the way is endless.

If you feel the curiosity for verifying some translations that make little sense for you, you don´t need to learn chinese before, what you actually need is to begin the work. The earlier, the better.

Brad´s Matrix Translation can be useful for testing the results of your own intents.

There are another translations witn the received text in chinese (better if traditional) and pinyin (official phonetic in latin characters in Mainland China). Get Wu Jing-Nuan

Reference:

On line book:

A sample:
You also need a reliable chinese text like the beautiful 1935 Harvard-Yenching Zhouyi from the site of Steve Marshall:

It´s only the chinese text of the Zhou Yi, the core text of the I Ching (no appendixes) in Unicode. you can made copy and paste with the sequences you want to study. This is a copy/paste of H.2:


坤 元亨利牝馬之貞。君子有攸往。先迷後得。主利。西南得朋。東北喪朋。安貞吉。
Compare with the hand-written characters in the upper sample.

A complete version of the I Ching can get in Chinese Text Project, each chinese paragraph is followed by Legge´s version.


A sample:


坤:元亨,利牝馬之貞。君子有攸往,先迷後得主,利西南得朋,東北喪朋。安貞,吉。


Kun (represents) what is great and originating, penetrating, advantageous, correct and having the firmness of a mare. When the superior man (here intended) has to make any movement, if he take the initiative, he will go astray; if he follow, he will find his (proper) lord. The advantageousness will be seen in his getting friends in the south-west, and losing friends in the north-east. If he rest in correctness and firmness, there will be good fortune.
Don´t try to get sense from the parsing, the original text had no parsing, no dots at all. Look that Harvard Yenching parsing differes from that of Chinese Text Project. The parsing is put by the reader in the intent of making sense. Say, each translator puts the dot where needed for a given sense.

And of course, a bilingual dictionary. Try first MDBG:


Copy a not too long sequence and paste it in the window. if you paste 先迷後得主 you will get something like this:


Of course, modern chinese but good to begin.

Don´t try to get sense at the first intent. You have a great problem, break it in small parts. Begin identifying the text and the correspondence with a given translation like Wilhelm / Baynes or the quoted Dr. Wu, maybe you feel some discomfort with those. Try the yours.

If you need, please, ask for help.


All the best,
(TO BE CONTINUED)

Charly
 
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charly

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Charly you are wonderful! Thank you so much :)
HI, Chris:

Glad that you like it.

Before and after trying to translate any sequence must compare with other translations, the classics like Wilhelm / Baynes or Legge and others preferable direct from chinese, like Wu Jing Nuan.

Another must is the english translation of the Takashima Ekidan made by Sigetake Sugiura. The complete book is available in Google and in the site of Steve Marshall, but Russell Cottrell has done the work of copying the Yi Jing, say the core text of the I Ching, the sentence and the lines.

That of Sugiura is a modern translation (much more than Legge´s) althoug old and from a traditionalist point of view, which is not bad for our purposes.

Here the page: http://www.russellcottrell.com/VirtualYarrowStalks/TakashimaEkidan.htm

From there can access the htm text and links to get the whole book and the Yi Jing in pdf. The hexagrams come with roman numbers and the name in japanese phonetics.

A little sample:

LIX. KWAN (To dissipate).
Kwan. Is auspicious. The King visits the ancestral shrine. Advantageous to wade a large river; advantageous to be constant.

H.59 translation by Sigetake Sugiura
May it be useful for you.

All the best,


Charly
 

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