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Recovery from the Wrong Medication: Hexagram 51.2.5 Becoming Hexagram 58

arabella

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I have asked for a friend who was given medication that turned out to be addictive and have loads of side-effects whether she is over the effects of withdrawal yet? It seems like this drug was a big overreaction on the part of the GP to a simple problem of not enough sunshine!

The Yi says, Hexagram 51.2.5 becoming Hexagram 58. As said, this drug was administered to combat Seasaonal Affective Disorder and is nasty stuff. I think it made the depression worse and compelled her to drink far more than is healthy, then to become reclusive and irritable. Now she has stopped taking this stuff, but apparently there is a process of withdrawing from the medication -- and then a process of getting it completely out of your system, It sounds like a waking nightmare. I can't tell from what I've found out so far if it EVER leaves your system.

Actually, I think the only "cure" for a person so severely affected as this is to go live in the sunshine somewhere. We hardly ever have sun here. I know people who have special lights for SAD problems, but this must have been a particularly bad case -- or the doctor is just prescription happy, I don't know. But this has been a disaster evidently.

It looks like the reaction to the drug isn't over, but it's possible according to line 51.5 to try to get back to normal. I'd say that hexagram 58 indicates there may be enjoyment in life again at the end of this long, dark tunnel? I'd like to be able to be encouraging. The hexagram 51 doesn't sound the best, but maybe hexagram 58 is a glimmer of hope.:)
 
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I think she will be fine after a little time passes... 51.2 speaks of 7 days (a short time), and no permanent loss. So, this reads to me like she will regain her former state of health. Then, 51.5 speaks of recurring shocks. Could be recurring attacks of withdrawal during this period, or depression etc. I get the feeling it is more mood in this line, but they will be able to handle it. So, they should not feel discouraged, but as the line advises, will maintain their balance as all will be well in the end. 58 speaks of a lake being replenished, return of joy, their need for more Vitamin D maybe?

I was prescribed something once for nerve pain, and I was nauseous and had all this weird tingling for a few weeks once I got off of it. I had wanted to stop taking it for a while, partly because I just didn't feel I needed it anymore, and partly because, at 6 bucks a pill, I couldn't afford it. Also, was compelled to drink more on this med! I have never heard that from anyone else before though, but maybe it is just an undocumeted effect of some of these drugs. But coming off of it was so unpleasant, I just couldn't bear the awful feeling on top of getting divorced. My deepest sympathies to your friend. I hope it brings her some solace to know that after about a month the more extreme withdrawal effects were completely gone, and within 2 months I was 100% better. Best wishes:).
 
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iams girl

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Hi Arabella, omg...

It seems like this drug was a big overreaction on the part of the GP to a simple problem of not enough sunshine!
Yes, often GPs are clueless. If more sunshine is not possible, then she should be seeing a psychiatrist who will be much more knowledgeable about these types of medications. There are plenty drugs which could have been tried that are not addictive.

I think it made the depression worse and compelled her to drink far more than is healthy, then to become reclusive and irritable.
Also yes, this is a serious side effect of some medications use to treat depression. A good doctor would have informed her of these adverse effects and have monitored her for this type of reaction.

I can't tell from what I've found out so far if it EVER leaves your system.
Googling the medication along with “onset, peak, duration” will give you information on when it goes into effect, when it reaches it's max, and how long it lasts.
 

arabella

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I have looked this stuff up along with "duration" and it seems the effects can go on for a while, but mostly it sounds as though people give up trying to come off of it and so start the cycle all over again. There is an active class action lawsuit about the very things she has described -- and more. But still, in ths case, hexagram 58 does sounds promising, so fingers crossed this isn't a worst case scenario. When I read what it's normally used for it seems like major overkill to prescribe it for Winter depression due to the cloudy weather. I just don't get it.
 

arabella

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I've just read that this drug, one of various versions of paroxetine, probably has the highest incidence of serious withdrawal symtoms of any medication in its class. Trying to get off ths drug can cause severe headaches, nausea, insomnia, vertigo, dizziness, electric pain, and a hundred other serious problems. Why on earth does anybody prescribe this stuff, it's like condemning someone to a life of psychosis. Unbelievable.

I've asked the Yi, possibilities for this person to be well and free of the drug?

The casting: Hexagram 31.4.5 becoming Hexagram 15.

That sounds even more positive, like there is a road to good health here. I think I can tell her that all will be well, since hexagram 15 sounds like a return to balance. I'd guess that 31.4 may signify the concern of friends. I think I may be the only friend who has been told what the problem is -- but not sure. I know it's a matter of huge embarrassment to her, begin unable to control some of her moods. The line 31.5 sounds like a full recovery to me, if there is ultimately nothing to regret. Although, from what I understand, there have been maybe ten years of struggle with this medication so far, and a lot of self-doubt, and now anger, that the drug has been known for years to cause these kinds of symptoms.

I have always avoided drugs of any type, except in the most dire circumstances, preferring alternative therapies like accupuncture and Chinese herbal medicinea, therapeutic teas, above all. Stories like this one are completely convincing that these chemistry projects put out by the drug companies aren't very well thought through.
 

suivis

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Having recently come off another somewhat-similar medication, this reading makes perfect sense to me. It took me about four months to come off Savella (an SNRI instead of an SSRI, slightly different but the chemical actions in the brain with regards to seratonin are very similar. The norepinephrine aspect of the SNRIs tend to make them very difficult to come off of, sometimes taking 6 months or more).

There's a point where you come back to your senses and it's truly shocking the way you behaved. I wouldn't have been surprised to see a line about shame in here. You find yourself still reacting to things in ways that just aren't sensible. Everything is up and down, sometimes even minute-by-minute. But, it does feel like the world is opening up to you again when you start coming off it. It also forces you to look at your darker self, which is so very hard and shocking that you could actually have said that thing to someone or done something. I told my now-ex that I hoped he did have a stroke! My sister says that I screamed at her on the so loudly once that people four offices away heard me. I don't remember any of this.

On the physical level, I ended up in the ER with convulsions during my withdrawal. In the end, I got a prescription for a sedative and had to increase back up a bit (Shock goes and comes, maybe). The sedative came in very helpful with both the physical and mental adjustments. Maybe she needs to switch medications before coming off the one she's on. With many of the SSRIs, you can "swap out" to something easier to come off of instead of withdrawing from the more difficult ones. (Intention is not lost - there are things to do).

The things in life that were blocked off to me are now open again (career advancement, healthy interactions with others, my own internal workings) and I can see things much more clearly, even though there are still times of shock that show me where I need to continue to do work.
 
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Well, just for some perspective, many doctors, at least in the states, don't know anything about pharmaceuticals. And the info they do get is mostly from pharmaceutical companies, and sales reps from the pharmaceutical companies, that also provide much funding to the medical schools. So, the Dr. may have been well intentioned and just misinformed. He trusts his education, we trust our doctors, and stories like your friend's are born. The system is inherently flawed. The research on these medications is done by the same people who profit from their sale... How can one trust that?

"Stories like this one are completely convincing that these chemistry projects put out by the drug companies aren't very well thought through."

They are thought through. There is a lot of money to be made. What more to think about? Drug development is expensive, and if a drug is flawed, it is often put on the market anyway. I totally agree with you, Arabella. I avoid prescriptions, and although there are some miracle pharmaceuticals out there, many are just dangerous. It is a standard practice to prescribe these meds now for any kind of mood disorders, regardless of the cause.

What more can we do but just be cautious and make better decisions in the future.

31>15 does sound promising for a full recovery. The influence is modest, maybe?...

I've heard of people supplementing with 5-HTP while coming off of some of these meds, and even using it for mood support thereafter. Couldn't hurt to look into it or consult the right professional about. The Yi perhaps. Best darn Dr. I know;).
 
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suivis

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Why on earth does anybody prescribe this stuff, it's like condemning someone to a life of psychosis. Unbelievable.
For the people it works for, it's a godsend. I can honestly say that I understand schitzophrenia much better now. Hearing voices, things climbing all over the walls, aggression and paranoia, an internal, almost electric, chill that never stopped... I'm textbook for who shouldn't be on that medication. I'll take migraines over that any day. :rofl: BUT there are people who are really helped by it. They have the opposite experience from me, and your friend from the sounds of it. For those people, these medications open up their world. The medications all act a little differently on the brain chemistry. I would suggest your friend see a psychiatrist instead of her general practitioner if she wants to try something else. Psychiatrists know better what to look for and what to ask in judging whether or not a medication is good for someone.
 

arabella

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Having recently come off another somewhat-similar medication, this reading makes perfect sense to me. It took me about four months to come off Savella (an SNRI instead of an SSRI, slightly different but the chemical actions in the brain with regards to seratonin are very similar. The norepinephrine aspect of the SNRIs tend to make them very difficult to come off of, sometimes taking 6 months or more).

There's a point where you come back to your senses and it's truly shocking the way you behaved. I wouldn't have been surprised to see a line about shame in here. You find yourself still reacting to things in ways that just aren't sensible. Everything is up and down, sometimes even minute-by-minute. But, it does feel like the world is opening up to you again when you start coming off it. It also forces you to look at your darker self, which is so very hard and shocking that you could actually have said that thing to someone or done something. I told my now-ex that I hoped he did have a stroke! My sister says that I screamed at her on the so loudly once that people four offices away heard me. I don't remember any of this.

On the physical level, I ended up in the ER with convulsions during my withdrawal. In the end, I got a prescription for a sedative and had to increase back up a bit (Shock goes and comes, maybe). The sedative came in very helpful with both the physical and mental adjustments. Maybe she needs to switch medications before coming off the one she's on. With many of the SSRIs, you can "swap out" to something easier to come off of instead of withdrawing from the more difficult ones. (Intention is not lost - there are things to do).

The things in life that were blocked off to me are now open again (career advancement, healthy interactions with others, my own internal workings) and I can see things much more clearly, even though there are still times of shock that show me where I need to continue to do work.
Yes, this is what was going on, just this kind of thing -- and like a totally different person. I was just heartbroken to see it and there was nothing to do. But, for instance, coming to see me where i was working and, when I couldn't leave IMMEDIATELY, like yelling NEVERMIND, and walking out. And this is just bizarre. So I backed way off, and then got a sort of email apology, with the explanation that this was going on. It was really shocking. And people who knew this friend even before I did said, something is really wrong. But I don't think it's general knowledge this medication was at fault. Not my place to tell anybody either. But I can be more supportive if I have any idea what to say or suggest. This kind of thing can just devastate your whole life before you can do a thing. It's so good to hear from somebody firsthand that this is possible, because other friends have been warning me away, saying this is bizarre. And it is. And she is so horribly embarrassed, as you say, knowing what went on and that she was out of control. But how unfair to judge somebody because a thing like this has happened. I'll just try to hang in and be there for her.:hug:
 
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arabella

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For the people it works for, it's a godsend. I can honestly say that I understand schitzophrenia much better now. Hearing voices, things climbing all over the walls, aggression and paranoia, an internal, almost electric, chill that never stopped... I'm textbook for who shouldn't be on that medication. I'll take migraines over that any day. :rofl: BUT there are people who are really helped by it. They have the opposite experience from me, and your friend from the sounds of it. For those people, these medications open up their world. The medications all act a little differently on the brain chemistry. I would suggest your friend see a psychiatrist instead of her general practitioner if she wants to try something else. Psychiatrists know better what to look for and what to ask in judging whether or not a medication is good for someone.
I don't know if it will be a permanent or temporary effect, but she has been a couple times now to visit relatives who live in sunny climes -- stayed several months each time. When she is back, it's like a different person, like she is healthy again. But then, she needs a "booster" and has to go back to the sunshine maybe six months later. I don't know if this has to do with the medication, or because she already had SADs in the first place and lacks serontonin. But the sun is a definite factor, for some reason, and if she can continue to get sunshine, and get off this medication, it seems from what has been said here that a full recovery is possible?:)
 
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Also, you will find all sorts of horror stories on the web. Doesn't necessarily mean it is the typical experience. I worked in a pharmacy for 4 years, and never heard one such story. People I've known have usually done fine after a little time adjusting to being off their medication. So, I would just take the source of info into consideration. I think she will recover fully as well.
 

arabella

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Also, you will find all sorts of horror stories on the web. Doesn't necessarily mean it is the typical experience. I worked in a pharmacy for 4 years, and never heard one such story. People I've known have usually done fine after a little time adjusting to being off their medication. So, I would just take the source of info into consideration. I think she will recover fully as well.
Unfortunately the "worst case scenario" sounds like it is her very experience and I can see why she is still scared and worried. She referred to the medication as "pure evil" when she wrote to me. The awful part is, she wasn't really ill when the GP put her on this stuff -- and it was a really reputable clinic too, one of the nation's best.

It was just a seasonal problem before this. She would get feeling very "down" because of the way Winter drags on in the UK -- which many people do. But this drug has made it really pronounced, far more dramatic, and caused all this other stuff besides. What I'm finding on the web is, more than anything, a confirmation that it can be just as terrible as she said and that what happened at my office is very typical. She really wasn't exaggerating when she said what happened in my office was embarrassing, but not the worst she has experienced by far.

I suppose as Suivis says, if you have an ailment that is destroyoing your life and you can take one of these things and it helps you -- what a blessing. But for this poor girl, just the opposite has happened and then she was feeling "doomed" to be like this forever because the withdrawal process is just as bad, if not worse. The poor thing, I'd never realised this could happen to somebody. But it sounds like she will get over this and be normal again -- and then had better plan to get sun at every opportunity, fill the house with SADs lighting, or just move closer to the equator!

Also, this is not a suit-happy country. To have a large group of people suing a company is a big deal, so there must be many serious complaints of the dimension of hers for this to be happening.

As you say, DWF, no point in exaggerating or overreacting, but I think she's had a terrible time of it and I'm glad she felt confident to tell me so.:hug:
 
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Oh, I'm sure she is suffering. What I meant was, cases where the effects of these kinds of things are permanent or longstanding are usually rare. I don't know the specifics, but usually people regain normal functioning from my experience. However, with a large group of people sharing such an experience, and having been on the med for such an extended period, I can't blame her for being concerned. That's the pits. Well, maybe she can get this company to pay for a move to the tropics:).
 

arabella

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Oh, I'm sure she is suffering. What I meant was, cases where the effects of these kinds of things are permanent or longstanding are usually rare. I don't know the specifics, but usually people regain normal functioning from my experience. However, with a large group of people sharing such an experience, and having been on the med for such an extended period, I can't blame her for being concerned. That's the pits. Well, maybe she can get this company to pay for a move to the tropics:).[/QUOTE]

I wll suggest she pursue this! :rofl:
 

suivis

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My doctor recommended that I go to the tanning bed when winter depression hits. I would recommend that above medication. the depression has to do with the angle of the sun and how much sunlight you get. The only issue is that you can't really use a sunblock. The UV rays are too important to your stability. 5-10 minutes a few times a week is usually enough for me.

When I was at my worst with the medication, my boyfriend of almost 4 years left. I can't blame him for it. He put up with a lot from me. He's been very supportive of me since then, as has my family. They knew something was wrong but no one knew what it was or how to help. When they would try to talk with me about it, I would fight them. What I needed to hear, and not during a time where I was already feeling attacked, was that I was still loved, that they knew I was going through a really tough time with this, and that they would be there for me while I worked it out. It tears me apart that my ex left when I asked for help, but I love that he has been supportive of me while I've been coming off the medication.

You're just not you and you know it but you don't know what to do about it or why it's happening. Knowing that someone is going to be there when you're at your worst is the most amazing sense of acceptance. The feeling of love and care is almost overwhelming. You hate to hurt the people you love, but you need their support. I stopped talking with most of my family for months during this.

When I went back to work fulltime (today!) one of my co-workers who has known me for years kept saying "Suivis is back!" It's been a full month since I've been off the medication and I feel more like me than I have in the last year. I look at how *I* destroyed so much in my life. The only thing that is the same is that I don't have kids. All of my walls were torn down and I feel very vulnerable. But I have so much more love and acceptance for other people's (and my own) faults now. Minor experiences can still be a crisis, but I know that it's still a hold-over from the medication and can deal with it better, being able to see (19) why it is happening. I have gotten 18 a lot while I have been coming off this medication and am dealing with the darker parts of me because of it. It's an amazing opportunity for growth, but very 3. Lots of 29, too. It's almost paralyzing at times. You learn and relearn about yourself.

There is definitely a crisis mode during and after you come off the medication. There is shame. There is penance. There is repentance, even though you know that it wasn't really you doing and saying those horrible things. I'm more than happy to talk with your friend about it. I needed to hear that it was understood that I wasn't in control. It's such a rough experience. If my experience can help anyone, it gives it more meaning. It makes it feel less like a wasted time. I am most grateful for the return of my compassion.

Like dancingwhiteferret says, it's not a typical response. Your friend needs to be very cautious about trying another similar medication, since the same class of medications can cause similar results. There are some sites that are very helpful with helping you discriminate between the types of medications and what may work for you. I'll PM you with some of the ones that I found most helpful.
 

arabella

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Thanks for all this information Suivis, which will be helpful in understanding how my friend is feeling. I know she's gotten some criticism for having "changed" a lot and it must be very hard to take. As said, I feel sure that most of our community have no idea what she has been going through as she's ashamed to talk about it. What a horrible dilemma. I have the feeling from recent conversations, she will probably move to a different climate altogether, with the hope there is no need for medication of any kind.
 

suivis

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Thanks for all this information Suivis, which will be helpful in understanding how my friend is feeling. I know she's gotten some criticism for having "changed" a lot and it must be very hard to take. As said, I feel sure that most of our community have no idea what she has been going through as she's ashamed to talk about it. What a horrible dilemma. I have the feeling from recent conversations, she will probably move to a different climate altogether, with the hope there is no need for medication of any kind.
I have considered moving many times, but my family and friends are all where I live. I can empathize with your friend. I only talk about it because I want other people with similar experiences to feel less alone. I don't often feel ashamed but I do feel deeply ashamed and dishonorable about this. If I hadn't been trying to save this relationship, I would have moved to a better climate for me. It's very hard to deal with how I feel about how I acted, even with the knowledge that I don't behave like that if I'm really me. :blush: I have to look at it like it was someone else in order to accept my behavior during that time.
 

arabella

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Thanks Suivis, and thanks very much for the PM! All the very best wishes to you. XO Arabella
 

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