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referendum - 39 & 51

anemos

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Hi all,

Perhaps you have heard the news about Greece and the coming referendum. I've enquire two questions
1. Concequences of Yes : 39un
2. Concequences of No : 51un.

So many ways to read those two hexs.
Just posting them here.

Maria
 

angelatlantis14

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Hi Maria,

that is an interesting reading!
Seems that whatever they choose, they are in for some hard times (which is undisputed in any case).
Both readings predict difficulties, but also offer hope, which is good.
The fact that both hexes are unchanging leads me to believe that the difficulties are unavoidable in both cases.
Staying 39: "OBSTRUCTION. The southwest furthers.
The northeast does not further.
It furthers one to see the great man.
Perseverance brings good fortune."

This seems to indicate that it would be good to cooperate with EU (I believe this to be the great man). It also means to draw back on core strength, maybe in the sense of focussing on what the Greeks are really good and strong at (clearly not international relations :)) but maybe tourism or agriculture.

No 51: "SHOCK brings success.
Shock comes-oh, oh!
Laughing words -ha, ha!
The shock terrifies for a hundred miles,
And he does not let fall the sacrificial spoon and chalice."

This will create upheaval and shock. But, if they stay steadfast, not letting the sppon and chalice fall, should also result in success. This reflects the opinion of quite a number of experts who state that leaving the EU and returning to Drachme might actually strenghten Greece instead of further weakening it.

In any case, I think these are both pretty realistic and relevant readings - maybe their politicians to be consulting the I ching before their next decision :)

best wishes maui
 
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diamanda

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Hi Maria,

Being Greek myself, I was thinking to cast about it but didn't get round to it.
Glad you did this cast, and such interesting answers - both unchanging!

1. Concequences of Yes : 39un
Dead-end block, limping, defect.
The situation would continue to choke Greece.

2. Concequences of No : 51un
A shock, coming from outer sources.
So something will happen that nobody has predicted so far.

I have no idea what I would vote for if I still lived there, but out of these two answers, 51 sounds like the most promising to me. It sounds revitalising and energising, in contrast to the stagnation of 39.
 

pocossin

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Neither casting is auspicious. In my opinion the so-called referendum is irrelevant. It is another attempt to evade repayment of debt. I agree with the finance minister of Greece that the debt is impossible to pay back. I agree with northern Europeans that it is absurd that they should continue to pay for a retirement system in Greece that is more generous than their own. I see nothing but catastrophe -- that is, a return to reality -- and hope you have no money in a Greek bank.
 

poised

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No solutions

It's a mess, anemos. I echo pocossin's comment about getting all your money out of the banks.

No easy solutions, just decisions about which strategy is most desirable in the short and long term.

For business strategy questions, I really like the Pathfinder I Ching, and it does not disappoint on these two hexagrams.

The NO vote:
51: Shock
This is a time of continuous, jarring shocks that may continue without let up until your goals are totally changed.

You may find yourself on the receiving end of devastating developments; be warned of how your opponent (who, exactly, is the opponent?) is likely to exploit your reactions or indecision in moments of crisis. Remember that winning the game must sometimes take a back seat to surviving the game. In chess, it's often possible after your opponent has gained the advantage to still avoid utter defeat by a change in perspective. When you find yourself in the weaker position, modify your strategy; actively pursue stalemate rather than checkmate. It can be much more difficult to vanquish an opponent who is playing just to survive, than one who is actively risking resources in a bid for dominance.



The YES vote:
39: Interference
Seek out the truth of things. Avoid basing your actions on personal prejudice, the opinions of others, or unsubstantiated fears. Be prepared to accept hardship in the short term, until relief can arrive.

Attempts to manipulate events away from the present course could prove frustrating and fruitless, until destiny is satisfied. Consider the following as well: The way ahead is closed. Yet the barrier is of your own making, not another's. Seek out the reason you chose this particular path, or helped erect this specific barrier, and you will find the way to overcome it.


Sounds to me like a yes vote, 39, is less shocking to the country than no, 51. Yes seems to give the country a way to overcome the problems. 51 sounds like ongoing shock after shock. Perhaps in the end, the people can survive them.

I really don't understand the issues very well, so looked at today's Wall Street Journal, which is running a long, detailed article. Interesting that their quote from the president of the European Commission echoes Hexagram 39:
“You shouldn’t commit suicide because you’re afraid of dying,” Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European Commission, said in a speech aimed at convincing Greeks that the budget cuts and policy overhauls their government has rejected are actually good for their country.

“You should say ‘yes’ regardless of what the question is,” he said. A “no” vote, however, “will mean that Greece is saying ‘no’ to Europe.”
For the rest of the article, go here: http://www.wsj.com/articles/europea...l-fallout-from-greek-bank-shutdown-1435573213

Whatever happens, anemos, I wish you the very best. You might want to ask the question I buried in the 51 description, who exactly is the opponent?
 
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diamanda

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Oh dear, not such a good idea to be quoting Jean-Claude Juncker...

This guy a few days ago signed an ultimatum to Greece, demanding further pension cuts, and today he claimed he never 'said' anything about pensions cuts. Huh...?

And this is the same guy who also said there was 'another lenient proposition to Greece', two days after the ultimatum, only...they never sent it to Greece. Huh again...?
 

poised

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Yay or Nay? Complicated

I'm not endorsing Juncker or his comment, just pointing out the similarity to the hexagram.

So many opinions flying around, not sure anyone actually understands the issues. Perhaps not even the voters.
Market Watch has some interesting articles, You might click around their site, starting here: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/yay-or-nay-greeces-referendum-will-be-complicated-2015-06-29

Or, if you understand the issues, please enlighten me.
 
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diamanda

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Poised, my sarcasm was against Juncker, not against you.
It is indeed a very complicated matter.
I've read tons about it, but I don't think this is the correct part of the forum to discuss such issues.

I can't see at all, though, how Juncker's comment relates to the actual text of hexagram 39.
You've quoted some translator's commentary of 39, but not the actual hexagram text.
 
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diamanda

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I have started a new thread in Open Space about it, if anyone is interested.
 

anemos

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Thanks you all for your insights. I think both hexs-interestingly unchancing- give a good image of both sides.

The most interesting way of looking that situation was from a psychologist talking about maturing, accept responsibility for your life and thing twice the yes and no you say, to whom you say them and for whom are meant to be told. I noticed that both hexes talk about looking at your self .- wise advise.

Thanks all
:bows:
 

charly

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Thanks you all for your insights. I think both hexs-interestingly unchancing- give a good image of both sides.

The most interesting way of looking that situation was from a psychologist talking about maturing, accept responsibility for your life and thing twice the yes and no you say, to whom you say them and for whom are meant to be told. I noticed that both hexes talk about looking at your self .- wise advise.

Thanks all
:bows:
Hi, Maria:

Recently i've posted my own consult about greek referendum in another thread.(1)

Of course, with or without the Changes I believe that the better option is NO.

But no matters the results, the referendum is not irrelevant at all. When banks make good business they take its gains, when they make bad business, they are saved by the international establishment that passes the costs to the people. People always pay, for its own errors and for anothers errors.

I'm also a little conservative, but I love more the truth. IN DEMOCRACY PEOPLE MUST BE CONSULTED, it's the positive side beyond the later results. Yes and No are both positive because it is the only opportunity for people to take decisions in matters for which always goes to pay and repay.

In my opinion, both results are good, although one (NO) is better.

All the best,

Charly
_____________________________________
(1) HERE MY CONSULT TO THE CHANGES:

Hi, All:

Casting the coins about greek people´s consult I've got 28.2 going to 31.

My almost literal translation:

H.28

大過
da4 guo4
GREAT EXCESS
Excessive load.

棟撓
dong4 nao2
THE ROOFBEAM SCRATCHES
All the building could fall. (Maybe speaking on the EU).

利有攸往
li4 you3 you1 wang3
PROFITABLE IF HAVING FAR TO GO
Good for going far (from Europe?).


heng1
FEAST
Occasion of celebration and joy.

Advice:
Vote "NO", say not to financial vultures.



28.2


枯楊生稊。
ku1 yang2 sheng1 ti2
THE DRIED WILLOW GROWS SPROUTS.
Old life will get a new spring.

老夫得其女妻
lao3 fu1 de2 qi2 nu3 qi1
THE OLD MAN GETS HIS YOUNG WIFE.
The folk finds what he needs.

旡不利
wu2 bu4 li4
NO UNPROFITABLE.
Good indeed!

Keys:
  • The Old Man is the Greek People.
  • The Young Bride is Democracy.

(to be continued)

All the best for the Greece´s friends.

Charly
 
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charly

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Hi all,

Perhaps you have heard the news about Greece and the coming referendum. I've enquire two questions
1. Concequences of Yes : 39un
2. Concequences of No : 51un.

So many ways to read those two hexs.
Just posting them here.

Maria

My opinion on your consults:

H.39 (Concequences of Yes) STUMBLE. Maybe some help from the west or south, no help fom the north or east. Profitable to meet with the Great People, say, to ear the voice of people, to make the referendum. Omen lucky. You know that Greece has many friends in the south west, South América.

H.51 (Concequences of NO) SHOCKING FEAST. The shock comes scary. Laughing says he! he! The shock scares hundred villages. Don´t lose the spoon for holy wine. Not easy but auspicious.

Be the best for Greece.

Yours,

Charly
 
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diamanda

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Charly,

Thanks so much for the supportive words, and for the insightful interpretations!

The Old Man is the Greek People.
The Young Bride is Democracy.


THE DRIED WILLOW GROWS SPROUTS.
Old life will get a new spring.


I find this particularly interesting.
To me Democracy sounds more like an old bride :)
But as we know she's not widely used nowadays, so maybe here she becomes young again.
Or maybe Democracy is the dried willow, who finally grows new sprouts (at least I hope so).

The theme in your cast is: something old gets an auspicious NEW/YOUNG thing.
That sounds great to me.
Greece desperately needs something new, as the 'old' has been proven not to work.
According to all polls so far, it's the young people (18-30) who mostly support the NO.

I've read a lot these days, I made my conclusions, and I agree with you:
NO is the best and most optimistic option in this case.

Being a bullied economic slave, who only knows how to kneel, has never helped any country progress.
 

viviank

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I did my onw casting today about the coming referendum. My question was: What's going to happen with the referendum and the economic situation of Greece?

Anwser: 42.2.5.6 to 19 suprisingly auspisious or I want to see it that way?

People here are very nervous and are afraid. They have great problems with cash and the endless queues at the ATMs. Today a girl, complete strange to me, that was a saleswoman at a department store after a small talk asked to hug me "because she found me lovely", that's what she said. I said yes of course with the thought that it would be a kind gesture, a short of a hug, you know like women do but she grabbed me and hold me tight for more that it sould be. I was shocked and then I thought this girl really needs a hug because she is afraid. And she asked it from a complete strange woman, just to throw away the misery she felt.
 
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diamanda

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but she grabbed me and hold me tight for more that it sould be

I hope this wasn't a pick-pocketing technique viviank!

What's going to happen with the referendum and the economic situation of Greece?
Anwser: 42.2.5.6 to 19


42.2 - "someone for sure increases them; good omen". Greece will get another loan, regardless of referendum.
42.5 - "trust kindness, don't ask, good omen". Greece will accept it with trust, without questions.
42.6 - "no increase, but attack; inconstant heart; bad omen". The offer was a trick. Attack follows.

Hidden lines:
61.5 - "trust, bond". Greece will trust the offer and will be bonded by it.
41.6 - "increase, someone gains servants". By the new bond, Greece will remain servants.

19 - "sacrifice/auspicious first, but the 8th moon brings misfortune". A summary of the above.

I find this quite a scary answer for the future of Greece.
Loans only serve to cripple a country, and Greece doesn't seem eager so far to be bold and stop them.
 

Tohpol

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Hi all,

Perhaps you have heard the news about Greece and the coming referendum. I've enquire two questions
1. Concequences of Yes : 39un
2. Concequences of No : 51un.

So many ways to read those two hexs.
Just posting them here.

Maria

A perfect answer.

As one commentary noted:

"Do you think Europe should forgive your debt, check box 'Yes' or 'No'."

"No" means a lot of pain now and recovery later.
"Yes" means less pain now but no hope of recovery ever. Choose wisely..."



I'd say that's pretty much 39 and 51.

It illustrates how this is not about left-right politics at all but an unregulated form of cartel capitalism which is now euphemistically called neo-liberal economics supported by the iniquitous IMF and WTO as global enforcers of debt. Now we have a global bubble that instead of being addressed was expanded at the 2008 crash and has just gotten bigger and bigger through QE and bailing out the banks with almost unimaginable sums of money. Meanwhile, Banking CEOs paid themselves record bonuses and the poor got even poorer.

Sadly, the Greece situation is a precursor of what is coming to the rest of Europe and the United States very soon regardless of any referendum.
 
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diamanda

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As one commentary noted:

"Do you think Europe should forgive your debt, check box 'Yes' or 'No'."

"No" means a lot of pain now and recovery later.
"Yes" means less pain now but no hope of recovery ever. Choose wisely..."

Thanks for this quote topal, hadn't read this particular one. So well-phrased and accurate.

And sadly I'll agree - this is what I also see: a total collapse of this corporate bubble, with catastrophic results for very many countries.

Ecuador and Iceland have proved triumphantly that resistance to this madness IS possible.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Greece tomorrow.
One referendum will not stop the whole thing, but I want to believe it will make a small difference.
 

Tohpol

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Yes, my thoughts are with the Greek people. How poignant that the last death throes of this corruption has returned to the seat of democracy for a baptism of fire...

However, I do think this referendum is a bit of theatre if I'm honest, since everyone seems to have forgotten that the bailout package they were offering is no longer up for discussion. What the referendum might do is galvanize popular support one way or another. Large scale emotional opinion is always ripe for corralling into "solutions" as we know...
 
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diamanda

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Well, first there was a troika ultimatum about the package.
Then, after the referendum was called, it "wasn't an ultimatum" and they (troika) withdrew it.
Then they (troika) kept saying Greece will have to leave Europe.
Then they changed their tune again (I've lost count how many times).

The referendum decision was addressing a real concrete problem-package.
The troika keeps changing like the wind day-by-day - I'm glad Greece/referendum remain steady.

You're very right, popular support is essential for any meaningful change.
This is what democracy should mean!
 

anemos

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Yes, my thoughts are with the Greek people. How poignant that the last death throes of this corruption has returned to the seat of democracy for a baptism of fire...

However, I do think this referendum is a bit of theatre if I'm honest, since everyone seems to have forgotten that the bailout package they were offering is no longer up for discussion. What the referendum might do is galvanize popular support one way or another. Large scale emotional opinion is always ripe for corralling into "solutions" as we know...

It is theatre. ... and very bad one.

I don't think this referendum, is the epitome of democracy, but seen with different eyes, we all might rethink the real definition of democracy.



I asked what greece should do a couple of days ago and got 61.2 > 42. Have no idea if it's about the results itself or what the rest of the world needs to pay attention too. Again, correct ourselves (42)

Initially announcements from opinion poll show NO prevailing, yet, I wonder a bit about those votes will be canceled. There is a small detail that holds many danger of being canceled. We have to put a cross to the yes or no box.... is so counterintuitive , you hand tend to put an x or tick.
 
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sooo

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I asked what greece should do a couple of days ago and got 61.2 > 42. Have no idea if it's about the results itself or what the rest of the world needs to pay attention too. Again, correct ourselves (42)

Initially announcements from opinion poll show NO prevailing, yet, I wonder a bit about those votes will be canceled. There is a small detail that holds many danger of being canceled. We have to put a cross to the yes or no box.... is so counterintuitive , you hand tend to put an x or tick.

I admit to not knowing and being confused by all of this. But I must say, Maria, as a personal philosophy, I agree consistently with what you keep pointing to, which is self reliance. I hear your voice, for whatever good that does for Greece. Perhaps the people of Greece need to hear her own voice, be reminded of her own great history and world influence, appreciate her own profound beauty as a jewel of the Mediterranean, her own pride as a people, and believe in her potential, and then act individually with the nobility that runs through their veins. That is Increase.
 

anemos

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The official results point to 61% NO ...

I agree with you, Bruce, it's about assume responsibility for ourselves , hear our voice. I hope for the best. We are , indeed, living hex 51 times.

It's not about only our country, it's for the rest of the world too, as many here and out there say.

May goods be with us,-all of us - and may he manage to not let the sacrificial spoon and chalice fall.

:bows:
 
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diamanda

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I asked what greece should do a couple of days ago and got 61.2 > 42

This is about following your heart/love, in secret.

Right now as I type, 92% of the votes have been counted. A staggering 62.21% is 'no'.
The 'no' is the majority in all the 51 counties of Greece.
Obviously everybody in Greece is against the austerity 'solution' (rightly so, as it leads nowhere).

Since the majority is so large, it only means that people from the yes-supporting parties also voted for 'no' in the end (otherwise there wouldn't be such a large majority). So 61.2 sounds to me here like a lot of people did what their conscience/heart told them, in opposition to what their party (and the propaganda) told them to do.

Let's all hope for a better future, and as Maria says not only for Greece.
 

Tohpol

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This is about following your heart/love, in secret.

Right now as I type, 92% of the votes have been counted. A staggering 62.21% is 'no'.
The 'no' is the majority in all the 51 counties of Greece.
Obviously everybody in Greece is against the austerity 'solution' (rightly so, as it leads nowhere).

Since the majority is so large, it only means that people from the yes-supporting parties also voted for 'no' in the end (otherwise there wouldn't be such a large majority). So 61.2 sounds to me here like a lot of people did what their conscience/heart told them, in opposition to what their party (and the propaganda) told them to do.

Let's all hope for a better future, and as Maria says not only for Greece.

This is great news. Greece has a steep mountain to climb but it has shown that a nation CAN stand up to the Eurocrats and the blatant corruption that presently straddles the financial architecture of the West.

To the spirit of Sparta.

Now we'll see how other European countries respond. It's about to get even more interesting. (Grexit approaches ...)
 

anemos

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On Monday I asked

What Greece have to do now (after the referendum's results)

42.2.4 > 10

42 not big surprise. .. and 10 very apt.
 
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diamanda

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Maria, your new reading is very similar to viviank's:

What's going to happen with the referendum and the economic situation of Greece?
42.2.5.6 to 19

What Greece have to do now (after the referendum's results)
42.2.4 > 10

I think your reading is a lot more hopeful.

In 42.2.5.6 to 19, Greece gets money (a new loan?), which turns out badly as they are then attacked.

In 42.2.4 > 10, Greece gets money (a new loan?) ... and they transfer it elsewhere...!? Then, caution.
The hidden line (61.6) speaks of a separation and going one's own way.

I have no idea what the transfer of the capital could mean here.
Let's not forget that what would happen if Greece voted no, would be 51, something totally unexpected.
So, let's keep watching this drama to see what other surprises it's got for us.
 

Tohpol

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Hmm. Interesting eh...

So, the question was: What [does] Greece have to do now[?] (after the referendum's results)

What does Greece have to do i.e. what is Greece's course of action?

42.2.4 > 10

The background is treading/conduct. Gently does it...

Line 2: I see this in terms of the Greek people maintaining their will and determination in the face of propaganda and inducements to dance with the Eurocratic devil ...It seems to be an encouraging sign. But I guess we ought to keep in mind that the Yi often speaks of what is beneficial from a soul level not necessarily what is "nice" from a personality perspective at ground level! :eek:

Line 4: This is the mediator line. A new way can be forged. I like the Wikiwing rendering on this one:

"Moving the city, changing the locus of government - can be a physical move or a conceptual shift so you 'come from' somewhere different. You may be bringing news that a great change is needed. (Either "notifying the prince" or just being heard in public, and speaking without bias.) If you're the one to bring the message, you can get things moving and have a central role in the change."

Well, Greece is leading the way and the rest of Europe is going to follow - one way or another. A shift away from people's reliance on government and into the power of people via community and creative, sustainable modes of living to get through this interim period. I don't mean to be glib on this issue either. I know people have to put food on the table. But I think it might get to the point where solidarity and community are going to be huge factors in how the Greeks deal with this... Not the Eurocrats and their proffered deals which will only make things much worse in the long-term.

But 42 is surely a good indicator suggesting that the Greek people may be more "blessed" from this chain of events than we realise, although it may be hard to see right now.
 

anemos

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Friday. .or Sunday is close.... we will see.

I see loan but I also see a Grexit. Whatever the result of negotiations will be, I found the "change of capital" an excellent point
 

viviank

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It's nearly Monday morning and everything is at stake for Greece ... still.
The difference betwen my question and Maria's is that I asked a predictive one and Maria asked a practical one.
The thing is that Europe has to change if we want the Union to survive, and in my opinion tha change sould be political. That was obvious from the last four days. Obviously Greece should change also.

Line 42.4 that was in both readings taken from Topal's post
"Moving the city, changing the locus of government - can be a physical move or a conceptual shift so you 'come from' somewhere different. You may be bringing news that a great change is needed."

And I think that we will see change for sure in the Greek goverment. And I can predict that without help.
Let's hope we are carefull and smart enough when the 42.6 time comes
 

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