Reflecting on doubt, and possible risks of divination?

[Michael 1]

Hello everyone, this is my first post here, and I'd like to share some questions, and hear your thoughts and experiences.

I have used the I Ching on and off for many years, but this past year difficult personal circumstances led me to make a much more systematic and intensive use of the oracle than I had previously. It became an important tool for me in a context in which I had little else to hold on to.

Over this period I have received some very remarkably consistent and meaningful readings regarding a relationship breakdown, which have somehow kept a light of hope for a positive outcome for the situation. This nevertheless haven't really happened - and yet I still keep getting uncannily consistent readings on this.

I am quite skeptical by temperament, and doubt is a common element in my relationship with the oracle. This has led me to consider the possible risks of the practice of divination. Could the I Ching (or other divinatory systems) possibly work in certain circumstances as a way of avoiding dealing with a traumatic event, through the creation of a narrative that temporarily neutralises the trauma, but at the same times defers having to deal with it? And nevertheless, the uncanny nature of the divinatory experience itself makes it hard to believe that one's dealing with raw randomness into which one simply projects one's desires (which I guess is why some people might think that the oracle somehow purposely misleads them). When asking the oracle on advice for my trust in it, the answer was unchanging hexagram 20 - which I took for a very clear "wait and see".

What are your thoughts on this? I'd be interested in hearing other people's experiences with doubt in their relationship to the oracle, and your thoughts on the risks of it working as a barrier to, rather than a path towards, awareness of the reality of a particular situation.

 

[moss elk]

I have received some very remarkably consistent and meaningful readings regarding a relationship breakdown, which have somehow kept a light of hope for a positive outcome for the situation. This nevertheless haven't really happened -

Hi Mike,

The light of hoping is completely within you. You are the hope(r).
A positive outcome in Yi's eyes is not always the same as
'The exact specific outcome here we are desiring at this moment'

I suspect that, if I were to see your reading journal, I would see some different answers than you saw. (You being a subject inside the relationship situation...and the phenomen of 'not seeing the forest through the trees')
This is why it is good to get feedback from others on our readings, by sharing them here. There is a proverb from the game of Go which also applies, I will paraphrase it here,
"An Observer, who is not involved in a situation, has two levels of awareness higher than the involved particapants"

Could the I Ching (or other divinatory systems) possibly work in certain circumstances as a way of avoiding dealing with a traumatic event, through the creation of a narrative that temporarily neutralises the trauma, but at the same times defers having to deal with it?

This is something human beings do,
For & to & all by themselves using any tools & means at their disposal.
Denial, avoidance, deluding oneself, misinterpreting...etc

When asking the oracle on advice for my trust in it, the answer was unchanging hexagram 20 - which I took for a very clear "wait and see".

It is much more active than that.
The 'wait' part is for a passive subject,
Waiting is not a part of 20.

20 says to "Go & use your own eyes to look,
And then after seeing, you'll have enough knowledge to work with & decide for yourself"
It isn't trying to persuade you to trust it.
It is something that would be said from a position of confidence, in the one who says it, the situation, and in the listeners ability to comprehend the situation.

What are your thoughts on ...
the risks of it working as a barrier to, rather than a path towards, awareness of the reality of a particular situation.

Again, I think we humans are the ones who error by seeing what we 'want to see.'
Yi, in my experience will 'pop' such delusion bubbles... over time.
But yes, Yi could become 'a crutch' to an anxious neurotic person, and sometimes when we are injured we may need such a crutch.

Why don't you go through your readings on the situation, choose a few important ones, then post them here for '2nd sets of eyes' to comment on?

 

[Michael 1]

Hi Mike,

The light of hoping is completely within you. You are the hope(r).
A positive outcome in Yi's eyes is not always the same as
'The exact specific outcome here we are desiring at this moment'

I suspect that, if I were to see your reading journal, I would see some different answers than you saw. (You being a subject inside the relationship situation...and the phenomen of 'not seeing the forest through the trees')
This is why it is good to get feedback from others on our readings, by sharing them here. There is a proverb from the game of Go which also applies, I will paraphrase it here,
"An Observer, who is not involved in a situation, has two levels of awareness higher than the involved particapants"


This is something human beings do,
For & to & all by themselves using any tools & means at their disposal.
Denial, avoidance, deluding oneself, misinterpreting...etc

It is much more active than that.
The 'wait' part is for a passive subject,
Waiting is not a part of 20.

20 says to "Go & use your own eyes to look,
And then after seeing, you'll have enough knowledge to work with & decide for yourself"
It isn't trying to persuade you to trust it.
It is something that would be said from a position of confidence, in the one who says it, the situation, and in the listeners ability to comprehend the situation.

Again, I think we humans are the ones who error by seeing what we 'want to see.'
Yi, in my experience will 'pop' such delusion bubbles... over time.
But yes, Yi could become 'a crutch' to an anxious neurotic person, and sometimes when we are injured we may need such a crutch.

Why don't you go through your readings on the situation, choose a few important ones, then post them here for '2nd sets of eyes' to comment on?

Hello Moss, thanks for your response.



Well, I have had many readings on different aspects of the situation, and of course identifying the important ones is inevitably selective. But recent ones that have been significant for me have been, for example, one in which I asked for the fundamental truth about the relationship. The hexagram came as 37.2.3 with the related hexagram being 61. This same reading came up on another question, on whether I was oriented in the right direction in persevering on my attachment to the relationship. The hexagram 37 has appeared on many significant readings (or are they significant because the hexagram appears?). A recent reading inquiring on where the situation was going came with 35.1.3.4.5, changing into 37. These are just a few examples - on the whole, my relationship to the I Ching during this period and situation has nurtured a sense of hope that sometimes I feel weary of, given that I have seen little of it reflected in reality. Given that the process is also largely out of my control or view, it is hard to tell whethe my relationship to the oracle is connecting or disconnecting me from reality. In this context, my interpretation of hexagram 20 made sense to me.
I hope this is clear, and thanks for the comments again.

 

[my_key]

Hi Michael1

Everyone's relationship with Yi is unique to them. There are many different reasons why each of us is drawn to divination with Yi and your using it as a systematic and intensive lifeline during your relationship breakdown seems to have provided you with a great deal of support.

I have found that what I take into my relationship with Yi is what will be reflected back to me particularly when it comes to getting clear interpretations. You are skeptical and doubting, you say, and that can easily lead to factors coming into your interpretation that influence you in ways that prevent a clear and open understanding of what Yi is offering to you in it's response.

You are right to be asking about the risks involved with this and other divinatory systems. There are many and it is always helpful to engage with Yi in respectful ways that minimise the greater risks. Things like coming from a place of stillness and developing a protective ritual around making your consultations can be beneficial.

Yi's response, I always consider to be best advice or guidance. I trust it. The words are created from a random process and therefore offered unconditionally. Additionally all emanates from a high place of wisdom. The problem can be, for all of us, that we miss the mark of fully understanding what Yi is trying to make us aware of. That short coming lies with us and not with Yi. We can follow the path of what we think we have been told when actually we were being told something else beyond our current ability to comprehend.

The risks that you concern yourself regarding avoidance, neutralising and deferment are not anything that Yi offers. It looks towards healing and providing insights that unpick trauma. Your terms of the concerns you see most likely spring from your interpretation and the mind set you carry when interacting with the response. That is what I have found has happen with me readings in the past. The trick is to be open enough to reach out for and gain insight into the wisdom Yi offers. Especially to reach beyond the limitations of your woundedness as you what has been presented to you.

It might even be that avoidance of a behaviour or a train of thought is actually the wisdom that you need to embrace at the time of making a consultation. Only you can say whether it is right for you, whether you will trust what you are receiving and whether you will follow through with the received guidance of the reading in some way in order to fix the omen.

Take for example your initial enquiry:

When asking the oracle on advice for my trust in it, the answer was unchanging hexagram 20 - which I took for a very clear "wait and see".

For me if I had received this response to that query I would be following a different wisdom than your 'wait and see'.

In my relationship with Yi I would see that the guidance it is giving me around trust is that I need to be more vigilant in reading the signs. Purposefully holding myself in check until I was clearer that I had a good hold on the right perspective. Then and only then to act. (21 - speaks of confronting issues from a new perspective). Any period of viewing / watching offers opportunities for active learning to be embraced. However if old outlooks are still held onto and new, solid, foundations have not been built then opportunities for increasing trust will fall on dusty, stony old ground. 20 calls out for an offering to be made for there to be any form of success coming from viewing.

Waiting and seeing is not a message that 20 conveys to me. 20 is a time for washing hands of the old and reaching out to see new perspectives. An active rather than a passive attitude is heralded.

Of course that is the conversation I would be having and you would be having your own conversation. Your conversation is right for you and my conversation is right for me based in our respective relationships with and trust in Yi.

This perspective is I think equally true for other divination systems. Skepticism and doubt do not make good bedfellows when looking to build trust in any relationship - either when exploring divination practices or otherwise. Much better is to approach with discernment and curiosity.

Good Luck

 

[Michael 1]

Thanks for the thoughtful response Key. To be honest, I don't think of my skeptical habits of mind as a 'good thing' when it comes to this practice in particular - I do think it is good to acknowledge and make space for doubt, that's the way I manage that at least. My relationship with the oracle keeps evolving, as does my life, and the meaning (wherever it is that this lies in) of the messages I've received will become clearer in time. At the moment, things are uncertain, and confusing, as they sometimes are. Doubt is part of that. Let's see what the future brings.
Thank you.

 

[rosada]

I can relate to "wait and see" as an interpretation for hexagram 20.
I frequently consider the sequence when I'm looking to understand the meaning of a hexagram. Hexagram 20. Seeing, follows hexagram 19. Approach, which warns about arriving too soon.
So perhaps 19. is a warning one ought not assume they will immediately understand the meaning of the IC's advice and not to give up too soon.
Then hexagram 20. advising me to wait a bit until the significance of what I am Seeing can becomes clear.

After 20, comes 21. Biting Through, and this suggests to me that the waiting period was somehow instrumental in getting me to be able to be calm enough, neutral enough, to be clear enough to see the meaning of an IC response, because then I'm able to See what the true obstacle was that prompted my question and "bite through" it.

The thing is I think that 20's "wait and see" advice doesn't mean just put it on the back burner and don't think about it till you see results. Rather I think 20 advises one to keep a steady focus on the question while you watch how things evolve around you - like you're trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle, until something clicks and you see how all the pieces fit together.

 

[Trojina]

Seeing, follows hexagram 19. Approach, which warns about arriving too soon.

It does? Where do you see that warning in 19?

 

[my_key]

While I do not propose that anything I write here speaks for Rosada, I have found reflecting on the 'warning' a worthwhile exploration.

For me, 19 does hold a sense of caution in it's essence and like any word of caution, maybe, it can be seen as is a word of warning, especially when taken in a wider context.

Factored into 19 seems to be a call for patience and less haste in racing towards reaching or accepting a possible false understanding about what is approaching: i.e. not to go about things half-cocked. Hence Yi advocating 'reflecting without exhaustion' in 19 image to warn against this.

19's position in the sequence between 18, where the house is recognised as needing to undergo some sort of structural re-fit, and 20, where we take time to investigate what really needs attention, speaks clearly in 19 of an approach that if started early, without seeing the full picture, could easily take the proposed building work in the wrong direction. Next, 21 speaks of confronting issues from a new perspective. Biting the bullet and forming a new plan. Perhaps, a more expensive or extensive effort will be necessary now based on the latest survey information. It is only in 22 that we are able to picture the beauty of the renovations we have planned before starting the necessary demolition work in 23.

Equally, when including the perspective of the nuclear (24) there is a deep calling acting upon 19 to batten down the hatches and not venture forth into new lands - don't go anywhere, it says, half-cocked or not! So, as 24 appears again after 23, there there is still an echoing reminder of the deeper caution not to rush. Plans often go astray and you might need to factor in some unforeseen disaster in the building work and that, if required, needs to be resolved in 25. It is only at 26 that the time is right for the structural weaknesses that were originally identified at 18 to finally be addressed. The right tools have been accumulated to begin to implement a strong, consolidated plan. This robust plan takes full account of all that has been learnt since the need for renovation was identified.

... of course, the story in Hex 19 might be nothing at all like this.

Take care

 

[rosada]

my-key,
I particularly appreciate your way of linking 22 - 23. I had been frustrated thinking somehow 22. Grace leading to 23. Splitting Apart meant the dream collapses. It makes much more sense that 22 would be a Vision guiding 23. Renovations. (In fact, I think 23. should be renamed Renovations!)

Further thoughts that are sort of stream of consciousness but perhaps you'll get my idea...
I see 24-25 as being about how after the space was cleared at 23. of all the false starts, misguided intentions and unnecessary obligations, then one 24. Returns Home, that is, goes back to their core values and innocence to where they felt they were in the right place, before they got confused by the pulls of the material world (harking back to 4.3 and 4.4 where one first gets off their track) and can 25. Start Fresh, be born again, start over and this time stay in 26. School and pay more attention and not leave without having learned enough (as in 4.1). Although eventually one has taken in all they can hold, 27, and so sitting in a classroom listening to the wise words of antiquity becomes sufficating and ultimately leads to 28.Collapse again, but now we're seeing the pattern, how a life is just one individual life, one island in the stream, of what is an eternal string of lifetimes repeating and repeating and we learn to 29. live these lives, these days, these moments one step at a time, at first perhaps fearing the waiting space between lives, focusing only on the idea that death is inevitable but eventually coming to realize that after every death comes a new life and thus 30. Sun after sun, day after day, life goes on forever.

 

[my_key]

my-key,
I particularly appreciate your way of linking 22 - 23. I had been frustrated thinking somehow 22. Grace leading to 23. Splitting Apart meant the dream collapses. It makes much more sense that 22 would be a Vision guiding 23. Renovations. (In fact, I think 23. should be renamed Renovations!)

Wilhelm's naming of the hexagrams is at times too dry and can be limiting in how we see them in progression. Karcher's 'Adorning' and 'Stripping' or Huang's 'Adorning' and 'Falling Away' can paint more juicy, evocative pictures for the connectivity and sequencing trail.

Further thoughts that are sort of stream of consciousness but perhaps you'll get my idea...
I see 24-25 as being about how after the space was cleared at 23. of all the false starts, misguided intentions and unnecessary obligations, then one 24. Returns Home, that is, goes back to their core values and innocence to where they felt they were in the right place, before they got confused by the pulls of the material world (harking back to 4.3 and 4.4 where one first gets off their track) and can 25. Start Fresh, be born again, start over and this time stay in 26. School and pay more attention and not leave without having learned enough (as in 4.1). Although eventually one has taken in all they can hold, 27, and so sitting in a classroom listening to the wise words of antiquity becomes sufficating and ultimately leads to 28.Collapse again, but now we're seeing the pattern, how a life is just one individual life, one island in the stream, of what is an eternal string of lifetimes repeating and repeating and we learn to 29. live these lives, these days, these moments one step at a time, at first perhaps fearing the waiting space between lives, focusing only on the idea that death is inevitable but eventually coming to realize that after every death comes a new life and thus 30. Sun after sun, day after day, life goes on forever.

There is a great ancestral burden to unload during this cycle (23-30) and your story alludes to this rite of passage.
I can see well the outline of the story you tell. Huang's names I believe do capture this better than Wilhelm. From the relinquishing of the old ways we have to unlearn through to the preparation and commitment required in the latter stages of the process that allow for the ultimate journey into the dark before bathing in that final burning brightness of a coalesced new truth.

24 Turning Back
25 Without Falsehood
26 Great Accumulation
27 Nourishing
28 Great Exceeding (Karcher - Great Traverses)
29 Darkness (Karcher - Repeating Pit / Ghost River)
30 Brightness

On a lighter note......

Perhaps a representation of not approaching the rebuilding with suitable caution and of the disasters that need to be learnt from along the way (18 to 26). That Big Bad Wolf will just keep on trying his tricks until a solid way is found to confound his a-huffing and a-puffing and his trickery. Solid foundations and walls do need to be established before the final push to 30. Enjoy!!