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deflatormouse

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From WikiWing (on 60.6):

"Yi has four lines that read 'constancy, good fortune, regrets vanish' (plus one where ever-flowing constancy from the source means regrets vanish); then just this one saying 'constancy, pitfall, regrets vanish.' It must be making a point."

As I've noticed these repetitions (and their variations) more and more in the last year or two, I have been wondering if there is a comprehensive list somewhere of repeated phrases in the Zhouyi and where they occur. Has anyone compiled such a resource? If not, is it something we could undertake collaboratively on Clarity? One way i can think of to approach it would be to have an online translation where all of the repeated lines in the text have 'footnotes' which hotlink to other occurrences of the same line, or something like that...

Another question- I understand that Bradford Hatcher has compiled pretty thorough lists of possible English translations of the characters in the text, either in a book or on a website or both. I am wondering where to find it, and whether anyone else has done a project like that.

Thanks all.
 

Trojina

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Another question- I understand that Bradford Hatcher has compiled pretty thorough lists of possible English translations of the characters in the text, either in a book or on a website or both. I am wondering where to find it, and whether anyone else has done a project like that.


There is a link to Bradford's work in his signature at the bottom of all his posts..unless you mean something else. Here it is http://www.hermetica.info/ it is available as free pdf or you can buy his book

Maybe you already saw that and you allude to something else, not sure
 

tacrab

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There are Chinese concordances, such as Shiyong Yiuxue cidian. In English you should be able to easily search for repeated text on your computer.
 
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deflatormouse

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Ah, this ought to keep me busy for a while...
Very nice of Bradford Hatcher to make all this work available online. I can't download pdf's from this device unforunately, but at least for the hexagram names, what i'm looking for is in the 'glossary' sections of his 'Yijing Hexagram Names and Core Meanings.' I was under the impression that he's compiled a 'glossary' like that for every single character in the Zhouyi. It could be in one of the pdf's. Or I could be very mistaken.
 

Liselle

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I have been wondering if there is a comprehensive list somewhere of repeated phrases in the Zhouyi and where they occur.

You're describing Hilary's Language of Change, which does that and more.

Language of Change is a pdf that's available to download from the Wikiwing home page. The link is right next to hexagrams 47 and 48.


Oh - just noticed you said you can't download pdfs. That defintely throws a wrench into the works, for Language of Change and for Bradford's books. :( You're right, his Key Words and Glossary sections are in the pdfs. There's also his literal translation, which may be what you're talking about? But that's a pdf as well.
 

bradford

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Ah, this ought to keep me busy for a while...
Very nice of Bradford Hatcher to make all this work available online. I can't download pdf's from this device unforunately, but at least for the hexagram names, what i'm looking for is in the 'glossary' sections of his 'Yijing Hexagram Names and Core Meanings.' I was under the impression that he's compiled a 'glossary' like that for every single character in the Zhouyi. It could be in one of the pdf's. Or I could be very mistaken.

Hi-
Volume Two (PDF) has a big glossary of all the words used 5 or more times in the Yi. pp. 415-462. There's also an index to the other words keyed to Mathews and Karlgren. The meanings were compiled from about 14 dictionaries and 40 translations. You can also track all the major phrases through the book in the Matrix translation there.
 
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deflatormouse

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Hi Bradford,
I've just started working with your Matrix Translation over the weekend.
It's an immediate favorite that has already made most of my Yijing library redundant.
This is really exactly what I wanted and had been looking for - an exhaustively thorough resource for those wanting to work as directly with the Chinese as possible without knowing Chinese (or just starting to learn).
If there is any additional material others recommend for this purpose please say, I would certainly look into it (edit: trying to order Kunst's dissertation but that site is buggy). But compared to the other translations I've used (many), this is frankly the mother lode. This is the tool that I've been looking for and have felt that I need to develop and improve in my studies and divinations. And all of the other information that I search through several different books for currently is there as well, only organized more sensibly and conveniently. It's like Christmas.

I'm probably going to want to buy a print copy of that from you sooner or later (sooner), I just won't be chained to a glowing rectangle all the time.

I don't know if I agree that this is not a beginner's translation, though; once you make the distinction between the Chinese and the English, the text of the Zhouyi, the commentaries, and the modern translators' own musings - easily explained to a beginner - it's not really a matter of experience imho just a question of how thoroughly one wants to pick it apart. I wish I'd started with this translation. Having recommended other translations cautiously in the past, here, finally, is one I can recommend unreservedly. I've tended to recommend the ones without commentaries, or where it was really easy to tell what's the commentary and what's the original text. I think the commentaries and translator's notes are what confuse beginners honestly; they find them more relatable than the actual text. I remember the first time I used Ming's translation, feeling freed from the commentaries. Well, this takes it a step further. It frees you from the translator.

Thank you so very much. This will keep me busy for a while.
 
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fabio galassi

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I take the liberty, whereas we talk about chinese texts, to evidence the repetition of '貞吉悔亡' in four hexagrams line contexts, and a variation in 60.6 (貞凶悔亡); even if punctuation and parsing could produce different outcomes where and if adopted.

Repetitive texts as 'mantic formulas' or 'formulaic texts' seem quite usual.
They carry some sort of 'functional' meanings, related to the topic, as i.e. a probable prognostication (貞吉) and a consequent (probable) verification/determination (悔亡).

Due to the text technicality, used by professionals more than 2000 years ago, not all is under the sun...so it could be that some occurences carry more than what is seen/read (as Shaughnessy -2014- introduces with 元亨 10 repetitions, and 30 of 亨 alone as an abbreviation of 元亨).

Richar Kunst did the job, in his thesis, with a beautiful context-concordance [The Original Yijing: A Text, Phonetic Transcription,Translation, and Indexes, with Sample Glosses: pp 499-603]

But I hope too you'll find fruitful the link below that manage quite the same principle, with a right selective work:

UMASS Classic Concordances

For those interested in, please let me know: a password is usually requested.
 
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fabio galassi

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Looking around, I've not seen and/or reached an un-punctuated html version of ZhouYi, I find really interesting indeed for search purposes as suggested in this thread (text sequences, formulas, repetitions),

I put one in my blog, and simply with ctrl F + ctrl V functions you can paste a character or string you want to search for along the text.

ZhouYi Searchable Transcription
 
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