returning "part" of the security deposit

[willowfox]

Lightangel,

WF, I think you are perhaps tinting things with your personal experience a bit too much?

Well all I can say to that is, 'have you ever been to Russia or other Asian country?

Only the Japanese doesn't cheat, scam or con.

I was in Moscow many years back, and I saw some unsavoury Russians first hand.

"she is in fact giving her a full refund of her security deposit,"

You are not reading the posts correctly.

 

[luz]

Elizabeth,

Regarding the contract, you write:

The lease also states that the full amt of security deposit will be returned in that case. ANd only in the event that I had been the first to cancel the agreement , would i have forfeited 100% of the deposit. (But i wasnt the first to cancel).

You say you were not the first to cancel the contract because for a while now you have been under no contract, the landlady cancelled it. If that is the case, then, what the contract says about you being able to leave in the middle of the month and pay only for that portion no longer applies because there is no contract, right?
If, on the other hand, you assume the contract went on as a 'verbal agreement', then that would make you the first one to cancel the contract, no? That would actually mean you should forfeit your deposit, no?

That is only on the theoretical side of things... on the legal side you are not protected because you simply have no contract. So, going to the police or to a lawyer is not an option.

So, your choices are:
(1) To try to negotiate nicely which will probably result in your not getting any more money back or
(2) To try to blackmail the landlady which might or might not get you more money back. But it will get you a couple of enemies for sure.

Make two columns. Put the pluses and minuses under each column, count them.. see where you arrive.

 

[martin]

Hi Elizabeth,

Yes, the clause that you cite explicitly states that the rule is NOT like I assumed.
So the landlady is either deceiving you or she is confused, perhaps because what this clause says is not common practice.

With 61 popping up I would keep an open mind to the possibility that she is indeed only ... confused.
But perhaps that is just me, I tend to be rather naive in things like this, always hoping that people are really not so "bad" as they seem to be.

 

[elizabeth]

If, on the other hand, you assume the contract went on as a 'verbal agreement', then that would make you the first one to cancel the contract, no? That would actually mean you should forfeit your deposit, no??

No. The landlady cancelled the verbal agreement as of late September 2006 when she announced the return of her daughter and my need to vacate. I would have happily stayed another 2 yrs in the place. She was first to cancel.

That is only on the therotical side of things... on the legal side you are not protected because you simply have no contract. So, going to the police or to a lawyer is not an option.

Going to the tax authorities is an option though. I agree that w/o a written contract I can't do much even with a lawyer. The tax authorities however would be VERY interested to see a copy of our contract and phonebills I have paid for as proof of my residency there...and they would tax her, far as I know, on the rent of 2.5 yrs.

So, your choices are:
(1) To try to negotiate nicely which will probably result in your not getting any more money back or
(2) To try to blackmail the landlady which might or might not get you more money back. But it will get you a couple of enemies for sure.

Make two columns. Put the pluses and minuses under each column, count them.. see where you arrive.

Agreed, (1) wont get me anywhere. (2) might though. I already consider them my enemies so not much to lose along those lines.

 

[luz]

WF,

I don't want to make a big deal out of this. But the landlady IS giving her a full refund on her deposit. At the same time, she is getting paid for the full month of November.

To answer your question, some years back I used to travel often for business to an Asian country and usually for an extended period of time so I feel like I lived there a little bit. I also did some vacation travel while I was there to other nearby countries. Lovely, friendly people, great food !!! Would it bother me to know I paid 50 cents more for my wonton noodles than I would have paid if I was a local??? Would I feel 'conned'? No. My capability to outsmart other people or to not be outsmarted by other people is not what defines me or my contentment with who I am.
In my experience, not everybody is out to get the foreigner, some locals are actually extra nice to them. Why??? Because they are good natured people, that is why.

But!!! I try not to let my experience color my judgement. In this case it's not my experience that makes me think the landlady might be right or that it might not be worth it to resort to threats. It's the situation. And it's also the reading. I was thinking about it when I read Hilary's post which I think was very much to the point, as well as others, including Autumn's which, btw, I also thought was very good.

 

[elizabeth]

martin,

You know, I've always (since childhood) been a proponent of the opinion that "man is inherently evil." People have tried to show me "the good" in others but this situation (as well as a slew of other things in the past 2 months) proves my point. The two times in my life that I went out on a limb and trusted other human beings (one time lending money to a friend, and this is the second time), *I* got shafted out of their greed.

The lesson learned then is "Do not trust."

I therefore conclude I was right: man IS inherently evil, selfish and self centered. Sad, but true. I don't t hink she's confused one bit. She knows exactly what she did and that's why she didnt phone me on Oct. 20 to say "what is this? Why only part of November rent?" She took it and decided to "pay me back" w/o discussion, being bullied by her greedy daughter (which is another huge part of the problem)...

 

[willowfox]

Lightangel,

which country did you travel to?

"In my experience, not everybody is out to get the foreigner, some locals are actually extra nice to them. Why??? Because they are good natured people, that is why."

Of course you are quite right, but unfortunately some locals make a living out of conning foreigners.

Well, we all have our own ideas here, you think that the landlady is standing on safe ground and I think that she is doing a nasty deed, so there you go.

 

[autumn]

You could specifically ask "how to act" here with the landlady, and perhaps that will very clearly direct you to one path (retreat from the issue) or another (fight for the money back). 61.5 is directed more to your outcome, and I think it's about being aware of what types of situations you create from your inner state.

I'm pretty pessimistic about human beings, too, and more of a person who wants to fight for justice, but I really admire other people who always see the good. Learing when to just let myself be at peace despite other people and how "wrong" they are has been a big lesson for me.

 

[nicky_p]

man IS inherently evil, selfish and self centered. Sad, but true.

Hi Elizabeth,

I see this as a kind of self-fulfilling prophesy: look for good and you will see it, look for evil and you will see that too because IMO, both are present in all of us on a kind of sliding scale with people maybe more skewed to one side or the other.

Anyhow, I'm safe as a woman!! LOL!

 

[nicky_p]

It reminds me: I have a friend who, when things are getting bad, tells me:

'you might as well smile - things always have the potential to become a lot worse!'

I think he tells me it to cheer me up - and it does in a way. The paradoxical pessamistic optimism makes me giggle.

 

[luz]

Elizabeth, out of curiosity: if that is the case, do you also consider yourself evil?
When I am feeling cynical I dislike humankind very much, etc. but, overall, I agree with Nicky (and with her friend) and I wouldn't go as far as to say we are all inherently evil. Selfish, yes, shortsighted, arrogant, petty, self-centered little monkeys, that we are...
In any case, I'm sure you are exaggerating.. I hope?

WF, I was in Singapore and a little bit in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, they are all very close to each other.
Re the landlady, I think that if she really wanted to do a "nasty deed", since there is no contract, etc. she could have kept all of the security deposit money (re-reading I realize that Nicky's friend's principle applies here ). I don't know, I guess I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, specially when I don't know them first hand. I am not saying she's a saint but I think she feels she's getting what she is entittled to. In any case, things being as they are, I think the short answer to Elizabeth's question is "No". And it will be best if she makes herself at peace with this.

 

[luz]

One more thing!
Elizabeth, just because you consider them your enemies, it doesn't mean that they are your enemies.. yet...

 

[elizabeth]

lightangel - no of course, I mean everyone except myself. Seriously though, in HER shoes, I would not have acted as she did. And if I felt it absolutely necessary, i would have told me, a month ago, that when I move out i will not get the entire security deposit back, and I would have explained the details of my creative math decision. THEN she (me) could have decided how to plan further. Not pull the rug out at the last minute. They know its "creative math" bc of her attempts to blame me, that's how it's clear to me.

"Selfish, yes, shortsighted, arrogant, petty, self-centered little monkeys, that we are... "

To me those traits are all evil. Selfish, short-sighted, arrogant/petty. They're not positive, and they are quite negative. I know a few individuals (can count them on one hand) who are not that way. Who are fair. Who can call a spade a spade. But I would say that objectively speaking, 85% of the world population are not that way (possibly even 95%, not sure, I don't know enough people to tally or take a poll). So, man is inherently evil, and I have yet to be proven wrong on that!

That's just my experience though.

 

[luz]

To me those traits are all evil.

Nah! They are survival necessities, they are the human condition. Evil is something else.

But! If all men are inherently evil and X is not. How did X get to be not-evil?

 

[elizabeth]

X is an exception to the rule -- or, you could say that "all men" are the exception and X is the way it is supposed to be. But since evil lurks in all men... I think it's fairer to say that X is the exception, the model human being, the kind, fair, considerate one. X is the way we're all supposed to be. X is the way we are or can be if we dont give into those petty "sins". Most humans are too weak-willed not to give in though, bc it's easier to lie, steal and cheat than to be honest, uphold morality at any cost, etc, and take the higher road. (I think).

 

[martin]

I think X is bad at being bad.
And bad at bad is good, like minus minus is plus.

The other solution is that X is a woman of course, but Nicky found that already.

 

[luz]

What happens if you x-or X with Y, who is not X????

 

[elizabeth]

I think X is bad at being bad.
And bad at bad is good, like minus minus is plus.

The other solution is that X is a woman of course, but Nicky found that already.

Well, doesn't "bad at" simply mean "incapable of"? Bc that amounts to the same thing. Inherently good people cannot be bad, bc it goes against their nature. They feel guilty, they feel they're betraying THEMSELVES, their own integrity, when they cheat someone else. That's a sign of a higher being, it's a sign of a higher level of evolution in my view.
Lions in the wild will steal another lion's meat, if they can get away with it, to survive. It's a selfish measure and they dont feel "guilty" about it. But that doesnt mean it's right, morally (animals dont typically sense morality though, so this comparison is skewed). Likewise, evil landlady's will take money that isn't theirs, "to survive". That doesn't make it right morally though, and in fact it's morally WRONG. Thus it's a sign of a lower, more evil being.

I can't comment on the gender question. I know more women than men, so it wouldn't be fair. but of my own acquaintances, I know more women X's than men, for the record. However, the evil women I know FAR outrank the men in terms of being just terrible human beings.

[Lightangel, you lost me...]

 

[luz]

Elizabeth,

Sorry if I lost you.. I was just kidding... I don't think there is much to x-or here, I just like using the word . Plus.. Martin was kidding too!

 

[martin]

Yes, I was.

However, the evil women I know FAR outrank the men in terms of being just terrible human beings.

Can't comment on that right now, somebody is looking over my shoulder ..

But I can say (seems quite safe ) that evil men and women FAR outrank the animals in terms of being just terrible beings.
Animals can be self-centered, they need to be to survive. And short-sighted. Dangerous too.
But evil? Yes, mean sometimes, when they are mistreated by .. us.

 

[elizabeth]

Martin, agreed -- humans can be far worse, hands down.

To both of you sorry i didnt catch the humor. My last decent night's sleep (or any sleep for that matter) was Thursday of last week. It's now Monday night here... I cannot think straight and catching nuances was lost somewhere on Saturday in this big mess.

 

[heylise]

In my eyes, what the landlady did, was a minor 'bad deed', if it was at all. Here we had trouble to find out how things were, so maybe for her it was not clear too. But answering it with a blackmail threat, is evil. Well, as far as I see it...

Maybe that is what 61 means? Stay true to who you are, don't become someone you'd rather not be...
That means not to get your money (41), but maybe you get something much more valuable.

I have this for 61.5 "Who is true can also recognize truth in others. He can make real and deep contact, and he can avoid all harmful and needless influences."

LiSe

 

[hilary]

I think Autumn's suggestion - that you ask Yi for advice - is good. Better than trying to deduce advice from a reading that was originally just a prediction (even if there does seem to be more to it than that).

You can leave questions of good and evil for a time when you've had more sleep, and simply ask how to act to get the best outcome for yourself.

 

[elizabeth]

hilary, thanks. I will do that.

++
"How can I get the best outcome for me regarding the old landlady and remaining part of the security deposit"?
The Yi answered with hex 18.2.3.4 and hex 35.

18, Decay...
line 2: Setting right what has been spoiled by the mother. One must not be too persevering. [dont push it]

line 3: Setting right what has been spoiled by the father. There will be little remorse. No great blame. [ok to push it]

line 4: Tolerating what has been spoiled by the father. In continuing one sees humiliation. [dont push it]

Total score: two don'ts and one "do".

35: Progress. The powerful prince
Is honored with horses in large numbers.
In a single day he is granted audience three times.

Progress? in what?? in losing? Ha...

 

[jesed]

Dear Elizabeth

Please remember some hints you had receive:

a) You need a real-state advicer
b) The concrete troubles can mislead you from deep issues; don't let this concrete worries make you forget the REAL issue to solve
c) The Yi is a tool to find clarity; when you get more confusion, is wise to stop until serenity is achieved again

Now, is up to you continue to follow wrong advices (WF's), is your life after all. But I would dare to suggest you to re-examinate the answers and advices you had followed, and see where those advices are leading you.

18>35. You think 18 is to correct what SHE had done, but the answer is talking to you. 35 is progress BY cooperation. That is congruent with 61, as Togan had pointed.

Bye

 

[willowfox]

Lightangel,

WF, I was in Singapore and a little bit in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, they are all very close to each other.

Yes, I have lived and worked in all those places, who knows maybe we have passed each other some place. Orchard Road, Change Ally, Silom Road, Chulia Street, Kuta Beach?

 

[elizabeth]

Jesed - but didn't that reading pertain to the apartment purchase?
This is the woman I was renting from...

 

[luz]

Yes, I have lived and worked in all those places, who knows maybe we have passed each other some place. Orchard Road, Change Ally, Silom Road, Chulia Street, Kuta Beach?

Nice Who knows, maybe we even met!

 

[autumn]

"How can I get the best outcome"..or, in other words, "how do you advise me to behave here?" 18.2.3.4. (35)

So, the answer is reflecting your position and advising you whether or not you need to change/do/understand something. The Yi is being objective. This is its opinion on how you're reacting to the situation.

Your position is represented by the image of decay. In decay, a meal has stagnated too long, and rot has begun to seep in. Energetically and metaphorically, decay means the energy is inappropriate to the situation. There is something stuck that needs to be cleansed.

In your lines, you have first the statement in line 2 that the problem is minor and easily corrected by gentleness. The transitional hexagram is 52, inner stillness. In line 3, you have the statement that you are technically correct in your complaint, but being correct does not warrant such a strong reaction. Transitional hexagram is 4, learn from the mistakes, mature your outlook. In line 4, you have the statement that the current problems have their source in the conventions of the past that are not questioned. Look closely at what is triggering your reactions. Line 4 warns specifically of adapting a victim mentality, or of endorsing a viewpoint because it is shared by a culture. Do what's really right, don't tolerate something that is not fundamentally correct but is sanctioned by public opinion. Interestingly, this message mirrors the original message of 61.5.

After the advice of the lines, you have an image of the ideal situation, and what you should strive for- hexagram 35. Be professional. Be competent. Be cool and calm. Use the power of your abilities to secure a meeting and accomplish your objectives.

 

[willowfox]

Hi elizabeth,

"How can I get the best outcome for me regarding the old landlady and remaining part of the security deposit"?
The Yi answered with hex 18.2.3.4 and hex 35."

Hex 18.2 mistakes have been made by making the wrong decisions, probaly not acting quickly.

Hex 18.3 Proceed to right the wrongs that have been made regarding the deposit.

Hex 18.4 Stop the rot now, don't let the old landlady cheat you.

Hex 35 to make progress you have to talk to her, say what you have to say, then there will be a great deal of activity on the landlady's side. You will receive the balance, if not today then within the next 8 days. That is if you go for it. Again, you have nothing to lose but a deposit to gain. All very positive. This is only advice, the final decision of what to do is yours.