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revising, harmonising

dobro p

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I've been getting deeper into the meanings for each ideogram in the Yi, and one result of this is that I've let go of one assumption I've had, and I'm clearer about my approach now. Thought I'd share it in case it helped others clarify their own position.

I've let go of the assumption that there is a correct translation of the Yi, or even that there's a correct version of the Yi in Chinese. Traditions exist for sure, but it can't be denied that the thing has evolved. So which versions are better - the older ones or the more recent ones? Which meaning should you prefer for a particular ideogram - the one the Shang and Chou used, or the one later Confucian scholars used? I think it's a trick question, because it can box in your thinking. Which brings me to...

The approach I've plumped for is one I learned from the world of architecture, where you design a new building so that it harmonizes with the other (older) buildings in the vicinity. If you walk along one section of Shaftesbury Ave, I think it is, in London you'll see old brick buildings and newer brick buildings. The newer brick buildings harmonize nicely with the older brick buildings - nothing jars, everything works together architecturally. That's the approach I've decided to take with my own rendition of the Yi. I'll learn the older meanings of the Chinese, and compare them to the newer meanings and get a feel of how the meaning has been moving over the years. Then I'll decide which meaning I'm going to give it, based on the history of the meaning for the ideogram and based also on present-day usefulness. So, I might change a meaning slightly, or introduce a new meaning, but it will harmonize with what's gone before. For instance, I've been working with Hex 58. If you look at the meanings associated with dui4, there seem to be two big clusters - one is joy/pleasure and the other is openness/mouth/communication. Okay, I've tweaked it and now I call it Bringing Forth. This favors the openness/mouth/communication side of the traditional meanings (I think this is more useful than the other cluster of meanings), but adds some depth to what otherwise might seem shallow talk. Bringing Forth tweaks the existing meanings (if I understand them rightly) and harmonizes at the same time - it's a new building on an historical street, it's useful, and at the same time it doesn't seem out of place. In this way, I can harmonise the version I'm doing with both the past and the needs of the present.

A scholar couldn't possibly take this approach; a scholar is too bound by footnotes and what is commonly received and accepted. It's a revisionist approach, but not radically so.

Thoughts?
 

peacecat

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dobro said:
I

I've let go of the assumption that there is a correct translation of the Yi, or even that there's a correct version of the Yi in Chinese. Traditions exist for sure, but it can't be denied that the thing has evolved. So which versions are better - the older ones or the more recent ones?

The approach I've plumped for is one I learned from the world of architecture, where you design a new building so that it harmonizes with the other (older) buildings in the vicinity
I think your approach is a good one, trying to harmonize the new with the old interpretations of the I Ching. Right now I have four translations and two personal guides and I have to work to bring them together each time I consult the I Ching. But because I'm a beginner I think it naturally takes longer and is more laborious. For most of you here, who are thoroughly familiar with each heaxagram and many of the lines, I think there's more of an intuitive process going on. A process which can unify the old with the new more easily than for the novice. This is something I look forward to experiencing if I can become dedicated to it.

By the way, where can I find the ideograms and their explanations online or in a book?

Kate
 
L

lightofreason

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dobro said:
I'm using Steve's Harvard-Yenching Yi, which has both the ideograms and the Pinyin:

http://www.biroco.com/yijing/zy1to10.htm

As for the various meanings for each ideogram, I'm using the Ritsema/Karcher tome and Bradford Hatcher's glossary:

http://www.hermetica.info/

And there's a lot of good ideas in this thread:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=3452
Oh you mean OLD stuff! LOL! - rehashing 10th century BC perspectives will not 'enlighten' you to the scope of meanings; I think you are being too local in perspective, too 10th century BC.

Find the "Species I Ching" in the archives that gives you the neurology rooted categories of meaning and then fill in whatever you FEEL in particular for those generalisations. - with those you write your own IC without the baggage of some local, particular, specialist, perspective not suited to your particular, 21st century AD, perspective.

...or are you just doing this as some sort of exercise in studying ancient chinese symbolisms? If you intend to USE your interpretations I would suggest consideration outside of the 10th century BC box.

Chris.
 
L

lightofreason

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To add to the previous :

to understand the meanings of hexagrams from a particular/general position one has to review the singular positions through a cognitive analysis and identify the SAMENESS from all ofthe DIFFERENCES (which is a more scientific focus in trying to identity algorithms/formulas that seed differences through reference to sameness)

The IDM analysis used the following texts :

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/irefs.html (and more since the last update some time ago)

...to bring out the sameness in the form of GENERAL/PARTICULAR qualities that seeded SINGULAR interpretations.

A lot of the references were re-hashes of Wilhelm/Legge but over the years more texts have emerged sourced outside of those. What is common is covered in the "Species I Ching" material that is rooted in the IDM categories of meaning derived from self-referencing. This self-referencing 'fight/flight' dichotomy of emotion will elicit qualities isomorphic to those qualities derived from self-referencing 'yang/yin' dichotomy.

From the IDM focus on self-referencing, and so applicable to the IC, comes the XOR work that lets the IC describe itself through analogies to itself, and the logic of relationships material (see the "Ruler" thread at the moment) BOTH of these methods allow for the IC to describe itself IN GENERAL and the SINGULAR comes out of each individual's interpretation of local details.

ALL of the past interpretations have come out of the SINGULAR realm with NO consideration of the self-referencing dynamics associated with the IC and so lacking in understanding of what is going on; the rigid sticking to the 'traditional' sequence etc reflects an almost religious attitude to the IC that IMHO does the IC a diservice.

WHat is essential to understand is that the categories of the IC are hard-coded into our neurology and as such precede any 'open mouth' communications - mapping the IC to emotions brings out this fact and so the ease in deriving meaning from the Emotional IC pages of IC+ and so association to every member of the species in that we all share the one language of emotion.

Chris.
 

dobro p

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lightofreason said:
Find the "Species I Ching" in the archives that gives you the neurology rooted categories of meaning and then fill in whatever you FEEL in particular for those generalisations. - with those you write your own IC without the baggage of some local, particular, specialist, perspective not suited to your particular, 21st century AD, perspective.
And continuing with my simile based on the architecture in Shaftesbury Avenue, I'd say that *your* I Ching would fit in about as well as a white geodesic dome lol.

Chris, I'll get around to your version of the Yi eventually, cuz I value some of the insights into the meanings of hexes and lines you've come up with and I'd like to understand where you're coming from. But you can whet my appetite if you like. In 500 words or less, can you explain the 'neurologically rooted categories of meaning' you mention? Keep in mind that my main concern in reading what you have to say about it will be to decide how universal it is and to what extent it's a product of the fertile imagination of Chris Lofting lol.

lightofreason said:
...or are you just doing this as some sort of exercise in studying ancient chinese symbolisms?
I want to understand better the whole evolution of meanings in the Yi from its inception to the present so that I can better decide on meanings that I think are relevant and useful for an English version in 2006.
 

yly2pg1

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dobro said:
...

I want to understand better the whole evolution of meanings in the Yi from its inception to the present so that I can better decide on meanings that I think are relevant and useful for an English version in 2006.
in that case, you'd better take up the alternative history on earth.
 
L

lightofreason

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dobro said:
In 500 words or less, can you explain the 'neurologically rooted categories of meaning' you mention? Keep in mind that my main concern in reading what you have to say about it will be to decide how universal it is and to what extent it's a product of the fertile imagination of Chris Lofting lol.
Our brains oscillate in combination to with our attention system to apply 'yin/yang' recursively. As such we encapsulate 'noise' and derive order from it through self-referencing (Google the "Chaos game")

At the unconscious level we categorise wholes, parts, static relationships, dynamic relationships.

Combine the categories with the self-referencing and we have:

wholeness expressed through yangness
wholeness expressed through yinness
partness expressed through yangness
partness expressed through yinness
static relationships (sharing space) expressed through yangness
static relationships (sharing space) expressed through yinness
dynamic relationships (sharing time) expressed through yangness
dynamic relationships (sharing time) expressed through yinness

We can convert these categories closer to feelings using:

wholeness - sense of blending (being one)
partness - sense of bounding (boundaries, parts)
static relation - sense of bonding
dynamic relation - sense of binding

We can then apply the set of categories to EACH category to flesh out meaning - and so eight becomes 64, 64 becomes 4096, 4096 becomes 16+million etc etc

Cognitive analysis of IC indicates these basics equate with general characteristics of trigrams:

heaven - expansive blending (yang, push out, differentiate)
earth - contractive blending (yin, pull in, pull together, integrate)
fire - expansive bounding (push a boundary outwards, exploit)
water - contractive bounding (pull a boundary inwards, protect)
lake - expansive bonding (share space with another/s (love, passion))
mountain - contractive bonding (share space with another/s (grief, discernment, passion))
thunder - expansive binding (share time issues - the 'new', now, begin)
wind - contractive binding (share time issues - the old, decayed, cultivating)

For the neurological focus see:
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introIDM.html

and reference pages at the bottom of:
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/idm001.html

There is LOTS more.

(IC related see page and links off

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/newindex.html

for XOR in particular see:
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html

For Logic of relationships see matrices in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icmatrix.html

for an "Internet Explorer browser only" page see the IC+Help at http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/IChingPlus )

Chris.
 
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bradford

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Hi Dobro-
As an architect who's done lots of work in historic districts I like your metaphor.
Jack Balkin, in a work other than his Yijing, talks about human culture in general as brickolage. Stuart Brand's discussions about how buildings learn also fits your image.
A completely different metaphor that I also like, especially given the long spans of time involved, sees Yixue as a river. In the present the riverbed guides the river, with little revisions and erosions here and there. But in the long run the water modifies the riverbed, particularly during floods, sometimes into completely new channels. The little revisions add up.
 

yly2pg1

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lightofreason said:
Our brains oscillate in combination to with our attention system to apply 'yin/yang' recursively. As such we encapsulate 'noise' and derive order from it through self-referencing (Google the "Chaos game")

At the unconscious level we categorise wholes, parts, static relationships, dynamic relationships.

Combine the categories with the self-referencing and we have:

wholeness expressed through yangness
wholeness expressed through yinness
partness expressed through yangness
partness expressed through yinness
static relationships (sharing space) expressed through yangness
static relationships (sharing space) expressed through yinness
dynamic relationships (sharing time) expressed through yangness
dynamic relationships (sharing time) expressed through yinness

We can convert these categories closer to feelings using:

wholeness - sense of blending (being one)
partness - sense of bounding (boundaries, parts)
static relation - sense of bonding
dynamic relation - sense of binding

We can then apply the set of categories to EACH category to flesh out meaning - and so eight becomes 64, 64 becomes 4096, 4096 becomes 16+million etc etc

Cognitive analysis of IC indicates these basics equate with general characteristics of trigrams:

heaven - expansive blending (yang, push out, differentiate)
earth - contractive blending (yin, pull in, pull together, integrate)
fire - expansive bounding (push a boundary outwards, exploit)
water - contractive bounding (pull a boundary inwards, protect)
lake - expansive bonding (share space with another/s (love, passion))
mountain - contractive bonding (share space with another/s (grief, discernment, passion))
thunder - expansive binding (share time issues - the 'new', now, begin)
wind - contractive binding (share time issues - the old, decayed, cultivating)

For the neurological focus see:
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introIDM.html

and reference pages at the bottom of:
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/idm001.html

There is LOTS more.

(IC related see page and links off

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/newindex.html

for XOR in particular see:
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html

For Logic of relationships see matrices in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icmatrix.html

for an "Internet Explorer browser only" page see the IC+Help at http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/IChingPlus )

Chris.
Why don't you come out with a template for each hexagram so that each and everyone can participate to write/edit/check his own version of I Ching with respect to his own experience and perception (at a particular point of time and space). After all each and everyone of us represents an orderly unique system that revolves around the nature of order, or are we not?
 
L

lightofreason

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yly2pg1 said:
Why don't you come out with a template for each hexagram so that each and everyone can participate to write/edit/check his own version of I Ching with respect to his own experience and perception (at a particular point of time and space). After all each and everyone of us represents an orderly unique system that revolves around the nature of order, or are we not?
From Dec 2004 (but NOT in these archives - seems to have fallen off!] - this is too long for this site, so I will split it into two:


The following is covered to varying degrees at my websites
but many still seem to not 'get it' (or have issues with
following links) or are not aware of it, and so I keep
re-phrasing and emailing the re-phrasing! ;-) ...
perseverence furthers ...

The FEELINGS, QUALITIES, of symbols in the I Ching
stem from our neurology. That is 'why' people get
value out of the IC regardless of 'fact'. The
basic categories are covered in my IDM work, where
the I Ching is a metaphor allows us to associate
qualities with reality.

The Species Level I Ching
(and so the basics for creating your own I Ching)
-------------------------------------------------

We can detect within us as a species a sharp distinction
between our species-nature and our consciousness-nature. Our
species-nature interacts with reality holistically and
mindlessly through the use of instincts/habits - patterns of
behaviour developed over a considerable timespan that
reflect the integration of species with the universe. As
such there is an overall sense of integration, of symmetry,
where the instincts allow one to 'flow' with the context -
no thought required if you have learnt 'good' habits.

One detectable development in our species has been the
ability to go past the 'holistic' processes, the realm of
WHOLES, and into the realm of PARTS, where manipulation of
parts has allowed us to refine the wholes that we use to
interact with reality.

Analysis of findings in Biology, Neurosciences, Cognitive
Sciences etc suggests that our consciousness, as in our
sense of individual awareness as well as awareness of other
minds ('theory of mind'), has emerged from our species'
PARTS perspective.
(we see this in such areas as how we deal with apparent
paradox - see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/paradox.html
)

Our consciousness-nature appears to be more precise than our
species-nature, it has developed serial communications (the
spoken/written word) that is not as immediate as 'holistic'
communications but can be more precise in expression. The
development by our consciousness-nature of a more precise
form of communications has ment the recruitment of the
species-nature set of meanings, a set of generic qualities
related to distinctions of 'wholeness' and 'partness',
'what' and 'where' etc, and the application of that set of
universals to a context. From that application symbols/words
are formed to reflect the link of universals with a
particular context and so make communications about that
context more 'precise'. Thus the application of the set of
generic qualities to a specific context has led to the
development of the I Ching.

The species-nature qualities are derived from recursion (as
in yin/yang) and the basic categories appear to be (after
three levels of recursion):

[0] [level 0, the undifferentiated whole]
[1] whole / whole
[2] whole, part / part, whole
[3] whole, static, part, dynamic / dynamic part, static,
whole

Level [3] is in the I Ching the level of trigrams. The
distinctions either side of the divisor symbol, '/', reflect
biases in perspective where a qualifying dichotomy is
required to bring out the differences, thus we need to use
such dichotomies as 'expand/contract' or 'positive/negative'
or 'explicit/implicit' etc etc etc Thus [1] above is
'expansive whole' / 'contractive whole' OR 'explicit whole'
/ 'implicit whole' and so on.

The term 'static' represents the concept of a static
relationship, sharing space with another/others but
maintaining identity. In mathematics this is the realm of
irrational numbers, of PI and e, etc, numbers used to
represent invarience of some form.

The term 'dynamic' represents the concept of dynamic
relationship, sharing time with another/others as in a
process of cyclic/morphic change, of transition,
transformation, transcendence.

The use of what is called hyperbolic development means we
can take the set of eight categories of level [3] and apply
that set to EACH category as a way to refine the categories
through the use of analogy - thus within the GENERAL
category of 'WHOLE' we form relationships to the other
categories that 'flesh out' the 'WHOLE' category where we
have:

'something' describable as being like a whole 'doubled'
'something' describable as being like a part in a context of
whole
'something' describable as being like a static relationship
in a context of whole
'something' describable as being like a dynamic relationship
in a context of whole

These relationships can then become categories in their own
right. Thus we 'jump' from eight trigrams to sixty-four
hexagrams (8^2). We can therefore create a 'template' of
generic meanings that is available to be used to describe
reality through application of that template to a specific
context. We then make unique labels for that association for
each quality - thus a hexagram can have many labels where
the hexagram's generality is particularised.

The generic qualities identified above are re-labelled to
appear in the I Ching as trigrams. The mapping of a generic
quality to trigrams is:

generic sense of wholeness - heaven, earth
generic sense of partness - fire, water
generic sense of static relationship - lake, mountain
generic sense of dynamic relationship - thunder, wind

Thus ANY hexagram as such has beneath the local labels a
particular generic quality, the nature of which is derived
from analysis of mixing its parts, the generic senses
expressed in the form of trigrams. That generic quality is a
universal and as such does not clearly differentiate modes
of interpretations - IOW the concept of 'contractive
wholeness' is a property of the trigram/hexagram called
'earth'. That trigram/hexagram can be interpreted as:

(1) 'pure darkness' and so be interpreted as competitive to
'expansive wholeness', the sense of 'pure light' of the
trigram/hexagram called 'heaven', OR
(2) 'pure female' and so cooperative to the interpretation
of heaven as 'pure male'.

These distinctions of cooperative vs competitive
interpretations are not present at the more generic level of
'contractive wholeness' where that level is made-up of a set
of universal meanings derived from the dynamics of the
neurology and so 'uncoloured' as yet (or only vaguely so) -
both 'darkness' and 'female' reflect wholeness gained
through drawing something 'in' or a sense of 'nurturing', or
'hiding' etc., etc., thus hexagram 02 reflects the
properties of a black hole as well as a devoted individual.

We can re-label these generic terms of whole, part, etc to
reflect a 'feeling' of the qualities of these terms. Thus we
have:

sense of wholeness - a feeling of BLENDING, to become one,
to feel as if one, to blend-in, to blend-out, to un-blend.
sense of partness - a feeling of BOUNDING, to partition,
form a boundary, 'in here' vs 'out there', 'us' vs 'them'
etc.
sense of static relationship - a feeling of BONDING, to
share space with another etc.
sense of dynamic relationship - a feeling of BINDING, share
time, a contract, transition, transformation, etc.

Thus the Species Level I Ching is a template of 64 generic
*qualities* used to describe reality. The 64 'templates'
(and their particular IC manifestations) are:

CONTEXT (bottom trigram): contractive blending (IC trigram
of earth)
TEXT (top trigram):
contractive blending [trigram of earth] (IC hexagram 02)
contractive bonding [trigram of mountain] (IC hexagram 23)
contractive bounding [trigram of water] (IC hexagram 08)
contractive binding [trigram of wind] (IC hexagram 20)
expansive binding [trigram of thunder](IC hexagram 16)
expansive bounding [trigram of fire](IC hexagram 35)
expansive bonding [trigram of lake](IC hexagram 45)
expansive blending [trigram of heaven](IC hexagram 12)

CONTEXT (bottom trigram): contractive bonding (IC trigram of
mountain)
TEXT (top trigram):
contractive blending [trigram of earth] (IC hexagram 15)
contractive bonding [trigram of mountain] (IC hexagram 52)
contractive bounding [trigram of water] (IC hexagram 39)
contractive binding [trigram of wind] (IC hexagram 53)
expansive binding [trigram of thunder](IC hexagram 62)
expansive bounding [trigram of fire](IC hexagram 56)
expansive bonding [trigram of lake](IC hexagram 31)
expansive blending [trigram of heaven](IC hexagram 33)

CONTEXT (bottom trigram): contractive bounding (IC trigram
of water)
TEXT (top trigram):
contractive blending [trigram of earth] (IC hexagram 07)
contractive bonding [trigram of mountain] (IC hexagram 04)
contractive bounding [trigram of water] (IC hexagram 29)
contractive binding [trigram of wind] (IC hexagram 59)
expansive binding [trigram of thunder](IC hexagram 40)
expansive bounding [trigram of fire](IC hexagram 64)
expansive bonding [trigram of lake](IC hexagram 47)
expansive blending [trigram of heaven](IC hexagram 06)
 
L

lightofreason

Guest
continued....

CONTEXT (bottom trigram): contractive binding (IC trigram of
wind)
TEXT (top trigram):
contractive blending [trigram of earth] (IC hexagram 46)
contractive bonding [trigram of mountain] (IC hexagram 18)
contractive bounding [trigram of water] (IC hexagram 48)
contractive binding [trigram of wind] (IC hexagram 57)
expansive binding [trigram of thunder](IC hexagram 32)
expansive bounding [trigram of fire](IC hexagram 50)
expansive bonding [trigram of lake](IC hexagram 28)
expansive blending [trigram of heaven](IC hexagram 44)

CONTEXT (bottom trigram): expansive binding (IC trigram of
thunder)
TEXT (top trigram):
contractive blending [trigram of earth] (IC hexagram 24)
contractive bonding [trigram of mountain] (IC hexagram 27)
contractive bounding [trigram of water] (IC hexagram 03)
contractive binding [trigram of wind] (IC hexagram 42)
expansive binding [trigram of thunder](IC hexagram 51)
expansive bounding [trigram of fire](IC hexagram 21)
expansive bonding [trigram of lake](IC hexagram 17)
expansive blending [trigram of heaven](IC hexagram 25)

CONTEXT (bottom trigram): expansive bounding (IC trigram of
fire)
TEXT (top trigram):
contractive blending [trigram of earth] (IC hexagram 36)
contractive bonding [trigram of mountain] (IC hexagram 22)
contractive bounding [trigram of water] (IC hexagram 63)
contractive binding [trigram of wind] (IC hexagram 37)
expansive binding [trigram of thunder](IC hexagram 55)
expansive bounding [trigram of fire](IC hexagram 30)
expansive bonding [trigram of lake](IC hexagram 49)
expansive blending [trigram of heaven](IC hexagram 13)

CONTEXT (bottom trigram): expansive bonding (IC trigram of
lake)
TEXT (top trigram):
contractive blending [trigram of earth] (IC hexagram 19)
contractive bonding [trigram of mountain] (IC hexagram 41)
contractive bounding [trigram of water] (IC hexagram 60)
contractive binding [trigram of wind] (IC hexagram 61)
expansive binding [trigram of thunder](IC hexagram 54)
expansive bounding [trigram of fire](IC hexagram 38)
expansive bonding [trigram of lake](IC hexagram 58)
expansive blending [trigram of heaven](IC hexagram 10)

CONTEXT (bottom trigram): expansive blending (IC trigram of
heaven)
TEXT (top trigram):
contractive blending [trigram of earth] (IC hexagram 11)
contractive bonding [trigram of mountain] (IC hexagram 26)
contractive bounding [trigram of water] (IC hexagram 05)
contractive binding [trigram of wind] (IC hexagram 09)
expansive binding [trigram of thunder](IC hexagram 34)
expansive bounding [trigram of fire](IC hexagram 14)
expansive bonding [trigram of lake](IC hexagram 43)
expansive blending [trigram of heaven](IC hexagram 01)

Given the above list of generic qualities it is possible for
the individual to create their own 'I Ching' without
reference to the traditional hexagrams and once created then
compare their creation with the traditional.

Overall, specialisation, our consciousness operating in
different contexts, will 'fill in' these generic qualities
but these generic qualities appear to be 'hard coded' into
our species-nature, IOW the I Ching is part of our
species-nature and as such can be applied to any other
specialisation - thus we will 'see' the I Ching in all
specialisations due to the hard coding of these qualities in
the species and so qualities functional in all maps of
reality. (for the neurocognitive source of all of this see
the IDM pages - http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/idm003.html

..and see the trigram pages:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t1.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t2.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t3.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t4.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t5.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t6.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t7.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t8.html


Chris
 

stevev

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That's what I'm trying to do ...

yly2pg1 said:
Why don't you come out with a template for each hexagram so that each and everyone can participate to write/edit/check his own version of I Ching with respect to his own experience and perception (at a particular point of time and space). After all each and everyone of us represents an orderly unique system that revolves around the nature of order, or are we not?
poorly, granted !
 

sparhawk

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No!!! Not the "blending, bonding, bounding, binding" again!!! I've not seen them mentioned for a while. They are back, people!

This is proof Chris is into the good old Marquis literature and likes dominatrices--ahem, some are sexy--and he wears black leather while writing this... :rofl:

L
 

hollis

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yly2pg1 said:
After all each and everyone of us represents an orderly unique system that revolves around the nature of order, or are we not?
:bows:
 

heylise

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I tried to find a field of meaning for each ideogram, the ones of the names of the hexagrams. Something which encompasses all meanings that character has had and still has, or has acquired. Because I think, that a character does not have a meaning that can be translated into one word. You cannot translate what you feel in a certain wood, or city, or how a meal tastes and feels, or what kind of weather it is. But you can convey that feeling. Sometimes you need more words, or maybe a poem, or go there with someone and make him/her feel what you felt yourself.

Another way is a symbol. For hex.18 the symbol is not hard, a "can of worms" is clear, and it has lots of meanings. It can be literally about decayed food, but just as well about a sick mind or body or plan, a run-down car or a dilapidating town.

Complicated images have narrow meanings. Translating with one word gives very narrow meanings, if that word is precise. Simple images on the other hand have wide meanings.

The ideograms themselves very often give that simple image. For some I have trouble finding it, but I think that is my own lack of understanding.

I made little lists of words and compound characters, which all contain a certain ideogram. Very often a character keeps its original meaning more as part of another character.
For 17 (because that happens to be where Rosada is now) I got as general meaning in this little list: conforming, being like a helper who makes things easy. Used in words, as one of the two characters, it makes the other character acquire a meaning of being boundless: following in the sense of removing borders, hugging.
Character composed of follow with earth: to fall. But the two as separate characters, forming one word together (follow earth): anywhere; everywhere.

More examples: (follow time) at any time; at all times, whenever necessary; as occasion demands
(follow hand) conveniently; without extra trouble
(follow approach) immediately
(follow mouth) off the top of one's head
(follow same) accompany
(follow convenient) casually; randomly, carelessly, wantonly; wilfully, do as one pleases

And then comes the difficult task, of finding a simple image which expresses this feeling. Not easy for 17.

The ideogram has foot and road, a mound, a hand, a tool, meat. Hand+ tool + meat is a character which means mashed meat.
The mound with the mashed meat together: rests of sacrificial meat, to offer a sacrifice. It is the name of the Sui dynasty.

So with foot something like "Going sacrificing"..

LiSe
 

dobro p

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lightofreason said:
At the unconscious level we categorise wholes, parts, static relationships, dynamic relationships.
Chris, I understand how the mind carries out tons of processing at the unconscious level (Daniel Goleman, "Simple Lies, Vital Truths" is a good read for this), but I'm wondering why you think the mind does this in terms of wholes, parts, static relationships and dynamic relationships. Why those four categories? What's the evidence?
 
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lightofreason

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sparhawk said:
No!!! Not the "blending, bonding, bounding, binding" again!!! I've not seen them mentioned for a while. They are back, people!
they never went away. These are syonyms for wholes, static relationships, parts, dynamic relationships The differences are in that they are easy terms to feel and reflect the mixing of a dichotomy (how can we mix two 'things' - we can blend them, bond them, bound them, bind them)

Negative feedback seeds the emergence of positive feedback and so we take two to make one - be it trigrams to a hexagram, hexagrams to a dodecagram etc etc

Negative equates with relationships and so bonding/binding.
Positive equates with objects, thingness and so blending/bounding.

Chris.
 
L

lightofreason

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dobro said:
Chris, I understand how the mind carries out tons of processing at the unconscious level (Daniel Goleman, "Simple Lies, Vital Truths" is a good read for this), but I'm wondering why you think the mind does this in terms of wholes, parts, static relationships and dynamic relationships. Why those four categories? What's the evidence?
try getting through the IDM material (it is supported by the references supplied) - or just go through the first three sections:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/idm002.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/idm003.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/idm004.html

The MAIN point is (a) oscillations of the brain across hemispheres when dealing with the novel and (b) the asymmetry of those hemispheres where we have the WHAT/WHERE bias that is syonymous with differentiating(thing, point, objects) and integrating(things, field, relationships)

The oscillations cover yang(WHAT(who,which), differentiating)/yin(WHERE(when,how), integrating)
When we encapsulate so we apply the oscillation within the encapsulation and so reflect the application of the what/where dichotomy to itself (see comments/references in http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/properties.html ) - this will elicit categories isomorphic to the trigrams, as they are to the categories derived from self-referencing human emotions dichotomy of fight/flight, as they aree to the categories of the types of numbers we use in Mathematics:

blend - whole numbers
bound - part numbers (rationals)
bond - static relationship numbers (irrationals - share space)
bind - dynamic relationship numbers (imaginary - share time)

The first three form the set of 'real' numbers. Add bind to give complex, and then we move into quaternions and octonions. All of these reflect the adding of sequence (vectors etc) to symbols of magnitudes (scalars)

From our brains the hippocampus covers sequences (vectoring etc) and the amygdala covers magnitudes (emotions, brighter than, darker than, small than, bigger than etc etc and so a relational bias) - hippocampus bias is manifest is left hemisphere of neocortex as is amygdala biases to complex emotions in the right hemisphere (left emotions are either raw or limited to the feeling of 'correct' vs 'incorrect'.

Combine sequence with magnitude and you get hierarchy, and so the three forms of interpretation of hexagrams or any dichotomy for that matter.

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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heylise said:
....
Another way is a symbol. For hex.18 the symbol is not hard, a "can of worms" is clear, and it has lots of meanings. It can be literally about decayed food, but just as well about a sick mind or body or plan, a run-down car or a dilapidating town.
There are two sides - the positive side is the correcting of corruption or even preventing it from happening through continuous making of small corrections - ensuring things are understood at the micro level to seed a foundation for general maintenance over the long run (and so avoid neglect issues) - thus there is a focus not only on what is, but on what will be (and what was - all mapped to the active line 2 of the base trigram).

In IDM the basic category for the position in the binary sequence labeled 'hex 18' is of contractive bonding (sharing space with others) in a context of contractive binding (sharing time with others).

Refine these to contractive bonding covering issues of self-restraint and discernment and so quality control in a context of development (including decay) over time (and so cultivation issues etc) ANY event that fits into these generic categories will 'fit' hex 18.

On the other hand, for 17 the generic qualities are a context of expansive binding (sharing time with others) but now a focus on a beginning (as compared to wind that works over time). In this context of the 'new' 'sudden' etc operates lake with its focus on self-reflection and it doubled to give intensity in expression - passion for something etc as occurs when we 'find' a new belief etc.

Overall it is feeling of expansive bonding (sharing space with another/s) in a context of expansive binding (sharing time by moving outward/onwards etc) ANYTHING that fits into this will 'fit' hex 17.

The logic of relationships table for 17/18 (reading in pairs, X is to Y as 18 is to 17 - read left to right, top left to bottom right):

18 46 57 48 50 32 44 28
04 07 59 29 64 40 06 47
52 15 53 39 56 62 33 31
23 02 20 08 35 16 12 45
26 11 09 05 14 34 01 43
41 19 61 60 38 54 10 58
22 36 37 63 30 55 13 49
27 24 42 03 21 51 25 17

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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Heylise,

To add more on 17/18 - the logic of relationships pattern comes out of the methodology used to create the I Ching hexagrams; as does the XOR material where the relationships are fixed - 12 is 'fixed' in describing by analogy (and a vague form) the 'mud' from which 17 has emerged, as 17 describes by analogy the 'mud' from which 12 has emerged.

The 'water' for the mud is described by analogy to XORing 17 with 48, 18 with 48.
The dynamics of 17 or 18, how they begin, what they keep coming back to, is described by analogy to XORING 17 or 18 with 24.

ALL of these relationships are built-in to the methodology of self-referencing, the method used to create the hexagrams and as such allow for mapping GENERAL meaning that we then associate with some local context to give some unique event.

WIth this comes exaggerations/dampenings of a hexagram's expression - e.g. hex 23 in 'basic' mode is representing 'housekeeping' but in exaggerated, high intensity mode it covers the high priest maintaining the 'true' faith etc etc - context maps to the level of exaggeration, expression of magnitude, of a hexagram.

Chris.
 

yly2pg1

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heylise said:
I tried to find a field of meaning for each ideogram, the ones of the names of the hexagrams. Something which encompasses all meanings that character has had and still has, or has acquired. Because I think, that a character does not have a meaning that can be translated into one word. You cannot translate what you feel in a certain wood, or city, or how a meal tastes and feels, or what kind of weather it is. But you can convey that feeling. Sometimes you need more words, or maybe a poem, or go there with someone and make him/her feel what you felt yourself.

Another way is a symbol. For hex.18 the symbol is not hard, a "can of worms" is clear, and it has lots of meanings. It can be literally about decayed food, but just as well about a sick mind or body or plan, a run-down car or a dilapidating town.

Complicated images have narrow meanings. Translating with one word gives very narrow meanings, if that word is precise. Simple images on the other hand have wide meanings.

The ideograms themselves very often give that simple image. For some I have trouble finding it, but I think that is my own lack of understanding.

I made little lists of words and compound characters, which all contain a certain ideogram. Very often a character keeps its original meaning more as part of another character.
For 17 (because that happens to be where Rosada is now) I got as general meaning in this little list: conforming, being like a helper who makes things easy. Used in words, as one of the two characters, it makes the other character acquire a meaning of being boundless: following in the sense of removing borders, hugging.
Character composed of follow with earth: to fall. But the two as separate characters, forming one word together (follow earth): anywhere; everywhere.

More examples: (follow time) at any time; at all times, whenever necessary; as occasion demands
(follow hand) conveniently; without extra trouble
(follow approach) immediately
(follow mouth) off the top of one's head
(follow same) accompany
(follow convenient) casually; randomly, carelessly, wantonly; wilfully, do as one pleases

And then comes the difficult task, of finding a simple image which expresses this feeling. Not easy for 17.

The ideogram has foot and road, a mound, a hand, a tool, meat. Hand+ tool + meat is a character which means mashed meat.
The mound with the mashed meat together: rests of sacrificial meat, to offer a sacrifice. It is the name of the Sui dynasty.

So with foot something like "Going sacrificing"..

LiSe
My inner voice brings me to what Chris wrote below. Exactly why, i don't know ...

Chris writes:
The term 'static' represents the concept of a static
relationship, sharing space with another/others but
maintaining identity. In mathematics this is the realm of
irrational numbers, of PI and e, etc, numbers used to
represent invarience of some form.

The term 'dynamic' represents the concept of dynamic
relationship, sharing time with another/others as in a
process of cyclic/morphic change, of transition,
transformation, transcendence.
 

sparhawk

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yly2pg1 said:
My inner voice brings me to what Chris wrote below. Exactly why, i don't know ...
Scary, isn't it? Chris does that, from time to time. Makes you want to actually read ALL of his material with some attention. Personally, I find some of the IDM material and associations quite compelling.

Resistance is futile... (I think he may actually be a Borg, not a Vulcan...) :D

L
 
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bruce_g

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It isn't paint which makes a painting but the soul of the artist.

I like quite a bit of what Chris has to say, but much of it seems an attempt to rationalize to himself what comes from the soul. Without soul connection to the Yi, an explanation requires a lot of fancy footwork, and of course it is he who must always lead.
 

sparhawk

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Hey, I'm not a convert and I doubt I'll ever be. I've only had a few epiphanies, here and there. Like I said before, I'm too much of a romantic to throw away the "soul connection" with the Yi in favor of dry rationalizations. :)

L
 

hollis

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sparhawk said:
Scary, isn't it? Chris does that, from time to time. Makes you want to actually read ALL of his material with some attention. Personally, I find some of the IDM material and associations quite compelling.

Resistance is futile... (I think he may actually be a Borg, not a Vulcan...) :D

L
we-e-e-e-l....just see what happens around ol hex 18. heh. THEN see how you feel about IDM.
 
B

bruce_g

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sparhawk said:
Hey, I'm not a convert and I doubt I'll ever be. I've only had a few epiphanies, here and there. Like I said before, I'm too much of a romantic to throw away the "soul connection" with the Yi in favor of dry rationalizations. :)

L
You da soul Man, Luis! :bows:

Yeh, I know what you mean. My Chrisepiphanies have had to do with how we construct our reality, and that ties seamlessly to other influences which say the same thing, only different ways. This, btw, frustrates Chris, because he doesn’t like being likened to anything 10th century BC or earlier. And I respect that point of view! I’m glad all that history is there, and glad scholars recognize Yi’s value enough to spend a good part of their lives studying it. It provides a solid foundational root system. But, what Yi winds up saying is not the stuff of ancient history but of right now. So it must exist now, new each time. Then every reading is an epiphany.
 

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