Searching for my teacher

[rowantree]

Greetings my friends,

I asked the question "how can I find my teacher" -by which I meant teacher of dharma (vajrayana). I used the online generation of hexameters and received P'i twice. Whereas the concept of stagnation feels like a relevant, albeit painful, description of my practice. I am unable to decode the direction or advice being described.

I am grateful to you for reading and perhaps answering this heartfelt request.

Rowan

 

[willowfox]

It says that you will be unable to find this special "teacher" that you are seeking, it further says that you should withdraw from the search and concentrate on practicing your dharma alone.

 

[doingnotdoing]

Greetings my friends,

I asked the question "how can I find my teacher" -by which I meant teacher of dharma (vajrayana). I used the online generation of hexameters and received P'i twice. Whereas the concept of stagnation feels like a relevant, albeit painful, description of my practice. I am unable to decode the direction or advice being described.

I am grateful to you for reading and perhaps answering this heartfelt request.

Rowan

Hi Rowan - I would draw`your attention to Wilhelm's translation of The Image, particularly this:

"The image of standstill
Thus the superior man falls back upon his inner worth"

I would choose to interpret this as suggesting what all of the great mystics have said throughout time: You only think you need a teacher - everything you need already exists within you. You need only to uncover it yourself.

 

[hollis]

Hi Rowan, as far as my understanding of Vajrayana Buddhism goes (not that far), the teacher is extremely important, the bond between the teacher and student extends over lifetimes, taking certain vows which also extend over lifetimes, which are taken very seriously. What do you think, is this true?

 

[martin]

Beautiful answer. It rings a few bells here, but it's hard to put the sound of those bells into words.
Let's try ..

The Yi is all about change and time, but hexagram 12 points at that which is not of time.

An experience of 'stagnation', of an absence of 'happening', is really, if you go deeper into it, an experience of a presence.
It's the presence of that which never changes that makes itself felt. The presence of the eternal.

I don't know if you ever noticed, but whenever you meet somebody that will become important in your life, there is a silence.
The world stops for a moment (or two ). Everything comes to a standstill.

Meeting the teacher or another important other is not something that happens in time, it 'happens' in eternity.
The physical meeting is not the actual meeting.
The actual meeting already happened, the connection already exists. The physical meeting only confirms it.

I guess the thing to "do" is to be open to what may feel like stagnation or to what feels like the absence of the teacher.
What you sense is in fact not stagnation and it is not the absence of the teacher, it is his or her presence.
The teacher is already present in your life and working with you.
That doesn't mean that there will be no physical meeting or that you should stop seeking.
Keep looking for him or her, follow your feeling/intuition in this, be open to hunches and coincidences, and so on.
It will play out in some way or another in the physical game
But if you know that the teacher is already present ... does it make a difference?

Words, words, I hope I'm making sense?

 

[rowantree]

Hi Rowan, as far as my understanding of Vajrayana Buddhism goes (not that far), the teacher is extremely important, the bond between the teacher and student extends over lifetimes, taking certain vows which also extend over lifetimes, which are taken very seriously. What do you think, is this true?

this is certainly true

 

[rowantree]

It says that you will be unable to find this special "teacher" that you are seeking, it further says that you should withdraw from the search and concentrate on practicing your dharma alone.

thank you for your advice Willowfox

 

[rowantree]

Hi Rowan - I would draw`your attention to Wilhelm's translation of The Image, particularly this:

"The image of standstill
Thus the superior man falls back upon his inner worth"

I would choose to interpret this as suggesting what all of the great mystics have said throughout time: You only think you need a teacher - everything you need already exists within you. You need only to uncover it yourself.

Dear Doingnotdoing,

I hear you and am grateful for you reply -which I am contemplating. However, in the tradition of Vajrayana -the teacher is of great, even essential importance. It is possible (and looking likely) that I am not erm...Karmically qualified for a teacher as yet.

thank you

Rowan

 

[rowantree]

Ah Martin,

thank you so much. You are one of the Diamond way.

You bring me to the practice of Complete Openness, Natural Perfection and Absolute Spontaneity.

I am going to allow the 'hung-bells-bow-swung' of your words to wash through me.

May the wind that blows over me on the green hill where I live, blow over you and take my thanks home.
R

 

[dobro p]

Before I weigh in on this one, I have to check: the P'i you received in answer to your question - it's Hex 12 right? Not Hex 8? They're both called P'i, right? Well, Hex 8's called Bi, but anyway...

 

[martin]

May the wind that blows over me on the green hill where I live, blow over you and take my thanks home.

Wow, thank you Rowan, be blessed

 

[rosada]

Is it possible the I Ching is saying your teacher is not incarnate at this time? Perhaps The Superior Man in 12.Stagnation is a reference to him rather than to you. Look at both the Judgement and the whole quote from the Image:
"Evil people do not further the perseverance of the superior man.
The great departs; the small approaches."
Wilhelm comments, "If the possibility of exerting an influence is closed to them, they nevertheless remain faithful to their principles and withdraw into seclusion."
Who is this refering to? Certainly you are not looking to exert an influence on your teacher, so it must be that it is he who is unable to exert an influence and that it is he who has withdrawn into seclusion.
Further, when we look at the whole Image it reads,
"The superior man falls back upon his inner worth IN ORDER TO ESCAPE THE DIFFICULTIES. HE DOES NOT ALLOW HIMSELF TO BE HONORED WITH REVENUE."
That sounds more like a discription of the teacher. I mean, it is not you who are wishing to escape difficulties by going into seclusion and certainly the teacher would not be offering you revenue. So it seems to me to be saying your teacher has gone into seclusion at this time and wont come out for love or money. Don't monks sometimes go on years long retreats?

Perhaps you would get a useful responce if you ask the I Ching something along the lines of "How do I best proceed while my teacher is on hiatus?"

 

[Trojina]

I think hex 12 here would point to looking for a teacher in this path is not the way forward or even that this particular path is not the way forward. I guess I would take this answer as 'abandon this quest it leads nowhere'. I'm struggling with Martins interpretation here, it seems an extremely positive spin on a dead end situation lol

 

[jesed]

Hi rowan

Just in case the comment could be useful

First of all, I must say I had no much ideas about the practice or "path" you are following. This some times is a positive issue when reading yi's answers to other people. You see.. there is always (always, including this comment now) the risk to comment or answer, not based on the Yi answer, but in our personal and subjective judgment about the topic of the question. And then, justify our opinion (our, not yi's) with the text of the Yi.

After said that, when the question is for an advice "what can I do for..., how can I..., I tend to focus on the image. In the case of 12 it is:

"Thus the superior man falls back upon his inner worth
In order to escape the difficulties.
He does not permit himself to be honored with revenue."

There is a large tradition of people, most of all sages, who went into seclusion before find the Light, the Truth, or their Master (depending on what Path they follow). In many cases, the went into seclusion to get themselves ready when in the near future the time would change in their favor.

In the tradition where I have learn, an unchanging hexagram implies the situation doesn't depends so much on the people who ask to the Yi for advice; let's say: here the mayor influences come from Heaven, instead coming from Man's action.

When there is no changing lines, I have find useful to see the rulers. In this case, Wilhelm's comment on line 5 seems relevant: "The right man, able to restore order, has arrived".

So, looking both the image and the ruling line, I would say that you need to focus in your inner work, and even take some kind of retirement or seclusion (I don' know if the Path you are following includes those kind of practices)..and get yourself ready. Somehow, I remember the proverb: when the student is ready, the teacher arrives.

Best wishes

 

[martin]

I think hex 12 here would point to looking for a teacher in this path is not the way forward or even that this particular path is not the way forward. I guess I would take this answer as 'abandon this quest it leads nowhere'. I'm struggling with Martins interpretation here, it seems an extremely positive spin on a dead end situation lol

You are struggling? No no, take a look at yourself, you are dancing!


But well, as I see it hexagram 12 only indicates outward stagnation or standstill. Not inward.
If a lot is happening inside this often goes with relative standstill outside and the other way around. More of the one is usually less of the other.

The question was about finding a teacher, which is basically an inner world happening.
And I think that is what the Yi is saying, at least that's what I hear: this is an inner world happening.
That doesn't mean that there is no teacher out there that can be found, but out there is not where the search should start.
If you start out there, that is 12, dead end.
The search should start in here, with feeling the connection that already exists.

Does that make it a bit clearer?

 

[Trojina]

well i think so, thankyou

 

[rowantree]

rosada thank you I am going to consider this. I appreciate your input.

 

[rowantree]

Thank you compadre

I appreciate your answer and am thinking about it

best wishes

 

[rowantree]

It is clear to me and has been since you wrote in a sort of onehandclapping sort of way:bows:

 

[emc2cme]

The feeling of stagnation

Hi, Rowan. Sometimes I find that getting the feel of a hexagram helps. In other words, what does "Stagnation" feel like?

With heaven ascending, and the earth descending, there's no meeting place. It's not really the kind of stagnation, for example, where one element isn't going anywhere--like water stuck in a pond with nowhere to go. It's just that there's no interaction between the two trigrams, both of them going their own way. In this case, which trigram do you think "feels" the most like you? Are you the earth or the heaven, with the attending attributes? I think it's interesting that the one interpretation says, " Thus the superior man falls back upon his inner worth." If the earth trigram is falling down, and the heaven trigram going up, then if one of the trigrams fell the other way, by "falling back on his inner worth", he'd also be falling into alignment with the other trigram...

I wonder if it might not also be possible to look at this hexagram as if one was observing the interaction between two magnetic forces, positive and negative. In this case, it's not merely a lack of opportunity to meet (like, say, two ships passing in the night). They're actually repelling each other, even though they're exactly alike but just turned around! Is it possible that you haven't found your teacher because you yourself are your teacher, as has been suggested in other readers' comments? I know that the particular dharma tradition that you mentioned places very strong emphasis on oral transmission of teaching and practice, on the student/teacher bond. But think about the Buddha, how he went through all the practices and teachings but was ultimately awakened when, and by whom?

There's a saying somewhere about not looking at the finger pointing to the moon, but looking at the moon itself. I know how frustrating it can be to not find your teacher, but think of it from the teacher's point of view. I don't mean to be harsh, but what do we, as students, bring to the table? Lots of joy, I'm sure, but also lots of neediness (and of course, that's how we all start out, including the finest masters/teachers/practitioners of all time). Have you seen that movie called Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter, Spring? It tells a story of a Korean buddhist and his student. I won't spoil it for you if you do want to see it, but it shows how deeply a teacher commits to his student.

I've made a long story out of what I initially wanted to be just a comment or two. But what does this stagnation "feel" like to you when you think of the two trigrams moving their opposite ways? And if you could make a story out of the hexagram, how would it tell the story of you and your teacher? Gestalt therapists, for example, say that when you have a dream you don't understand, you can achieve more clarity by asking each part of the dream to explain itself. So maybe by asking each part of the hexagram to "explain" itself to you, it might give you greater understanding.

Anyway, the best of luck to you!

Nancy

 

[rowantree]

Thank you so much Nancy

i am going to a retreat this weekend and I am going to print this out and think about it -or feel my way through what you say. A part of me is shutting my ears to what you are saying , the same part that wants a reading to confirm what I desire -instead I will try to listen to what I am trying not to hear.

thank you

Rowan

 

[hollis]

hex 12

Hi Rowan, I have thought about your answer (hex 12) a lot since reading it here. I got the same answer a while back, about something very important to me, and just felt so depressed, even stunned, about the answer. As far as my understanding goes of your tradition, the path is the result, so even if you cannot do anything to meet your Teacher right now (and that will change in time), you can still make offerings, do prostrations, and dedicate all your merits and good fortune for the sake of all sentient beings. and....maybe that there is nothing you can do, is exactly the medicine right now, letting go, stopping, and accepting that separation....perhaps letting that be will be very positive.

And, as an after thought, I have a hard time with online generated readings, preferring the non virtual, but that's just this soldier, others get great results online, but it's just how i feel about it.

 

[meng]

I believe there can develop severe problems when someone of modern culture emulates too exactly the spiritual practices of a distant culture. If a way such as traditional Buddhism, for example, is going to be practiced in this age, somewhere, say, in upper New York state, they leave their own path (12) to follow another's.

I think that one needs to apply the teaching from the past within the context of where we are in the present, including what new understanding there may be about the contextual field or subject, i.e. science, or even art. (26)

I think 12 says "No - go cut a path of your own."

 

[rosada]

You are going on retreat this weekend, Rowan?
Hmm..seems to me we could interpret 12. as advising you to do just that!
Sounds like you're on the right track...

 

[emc2cme]

Hi, Rowan

If all of us aren't out here on the net looking for something, I'll eat my keyboard. Either a teacher, or a follower, or a friend, an answer, from a to z, it's all out there. And the net, I guess, is just an extension of what we were looking for out in the world before the net came into being.

A long time ago, someone once said that we could never be thirsty for orange juice if we'd never tasted it. We had to have tasted it once before we could have a thirst for that specific beverage. His analogy was that we thirst for what is true, what is real or holy, only because we once knew it and are now missing it in our lives. Maybe this is akin to the "original face"--what was our face before we were born? What did we know of the true/holy/divine/etc. before we got all cluttered up with "stuff", before we got stagnant?

To get a little crass, I sometimes wonder if we long so much for this teacher/god/goddess/divinity/truth because we knew we once had it but let it slip away? Kind of like a boyfriend I used to have who left me. I don't ever think of the ones I left behind, but the one who dared leave me? I didn't think I cared a bit for him, and told him a hundred times that I didn't want to live my life the way he wanted us to live, but after he left and never returned my calls---ooh! that stung, and still stings twenty-five years later.

Anyway, we try so hard to MAKE GOD/GODDESS/THE TRUE/THE DIVINE/THE TEACHER, etc. come into our lives, and They aren't playin'. I don't know where you live, but I've found that most people in the western world anyway, including me, have a really hard time when we can't MAKE something happen. We have different ways of trying to manipulate or micromanage our environment. My sister is very non-confrontational, very sweet, and just buys her way into having what she wants through acts of self-sacrifice, kindness or just plain filthy lucre. I, on the other hand, think I've got things pretty well figured out so I just tell people what they ought to be doing, and expect them to see my reason (and lord help them if they don't). My other sister goes her merry way, doesn't give a fig for anyone else except "us four, no more", and keeps the environment smooth by making lots of jokes.

The Diamond Way reminds me of a saying, that only a diamond can cut another diamond. So maybe the Universal Diamond is cutting through all the stuff in you that isn't a diamond, all the stagnant stuff? Or maybe a diamond is just a bunch of stagnant stuff, compressed under heat and millenia...You've started a very interesting thread here--I love reading what the others and you have said, and I would be very interested in hearing what comes out of your retreat. Take care.

Nancy