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sooo

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If the Universe were to withhold a secret from mankind, in what hexagram would that be expressed?
 
S

sooo

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Is there no hexagram that includes the meaning "secret"?

I'm not so much referring to a reading one might receive regarding a question one is better off not asking. I can think of a few for that, i.e. 10, 12, 23, 28, 29, 33, 38, 39, 44, 57, 59, 62. But these would all be more like "don't go there", "let it be", "drop it", "back off", etc.

I'm looking for an uc hexagram that would include the meaning "secret". If the IC includes all that is in heaven and earth, then is there nothing in heaven or earth that is intended to be a secret? If there is an intended secret, there must be a hexagram that includes that meaning.
 
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svenrus

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As Richard Wilhelm explains the pictogram of the hexagram Chung Fu (hex. 61 in the received order): The character Fu ".... the picture of a bird's foot over a fledgling. It suggests the idea of brooding. An egg is hollow. The light-giving power must work to quicken it from outside, but there must be a germ of life within, if life is to be awakened....". The bird is guarding it's little ones. The best way to do that is to keep them into secret of others attention. Our inner nature is kind of secret to guard it from "dark attention"; we could call the Inner truth Pure Light. And, furthermore the hexagram is also a wider picture of the trigram Li (Fire, the clinging), also expressed by some as the eye. By wider I mean the strokes are doubled in Li to give Chung Fu.
A suggestion in trying to meet Your question.
 
S

sooo

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Thank you, Svenrus. I have given thought to 61 for my question before and after your suggestion and will continue to do so. It hasn't yet quite scratched that itch yet though. I am wondering if there are no secrets, only things we may not understand, be ready for, or in some cases we are unable to accept. In which case, 61 seems to fit, the secret being within, concealed and protected from without.
 

moss elk

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If the Universe were to withhold a secret from mankind, in what hexagram would that be expressed?

hi sooo,

following the logic in your question: it would not be expressed.
If the I ching is part of the universe (whatever that may mean), it would keep the secret.

ok, i'll bite:
maybe 52.6 could be the counsel given if one tried to seek such a secret.
 
S

sooo

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Thanks, Moss.

I'm really looking for an unchanging (no lines) hexagram example. As mentioned, there are quite a few examples of what could imply holding back looking for an answer.

Does the Universe intentionally withhold information? Are there truths we are not allowed to know? Or, are we just incapable of understanding? These are more along the line I'm seeking an answer for. If the very idea of an actual unpenatrable secret is feasible, in any example, there should be a hexagram which includes that meaning. 61 touches on it, I think. And to me, so does 12, being something out of reach, and unlike some, I do see the answer "no" in that hexagram.
 

Trojina

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If the Universe were to withhold a secret from mankind, in what hexagram would that be expressed?

I immediately thought 61uc yesterday so it's strange to see others also said 61. If there was a secret it would be 61 because of the look of it, a box...and because of associations with inner truth we can't get at, we tend to look 'out there' for answers not 'in here'...and because generally no one knows what the heck it means when they get it as an answer :)

Also 61.2 reminds me of a secret shared
 

anemos

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besides 61, which was my first thought too I could see it in 22 and 48 . 22 as the hidden essence of something and 48 as having a smaller rope than we need to draw info . In both the access we have it might be limited for various reasons.

or 60 as if Universe puts it's limit on what to reveal or not.

0r 4 which the name of hex - if recall correct- means something concealed , covered.
 
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Zimbali

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Delete - posted twice in error
 
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Zimbali

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It is actually expressed in 9.

The universe is a notion of mankind. It is the thoughts and limitations of man that has defined the universe, but we don't really know what that is, fully, in entirety. Simply we can't explain it fully. The laws of quantum mechanics don't marry seamlessly with those of astrophysics.

What was certainly not for the masses of humanity at least was the Yijing, in the west Kabbalah.

If we take an example of intellectual colonisation, Christianity would be an excellent example.

The secret is simply this the masses are restrained.

Once you understand the nature of that reality, you are well on the road to personal freedom. A secret which many people go to great lengths to protect. Probably the biggest secret.
 

Trojina

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You are being controlled by an entity who makes you post things twice

you just posted that post twice
 

moss elk

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What's eating at you anyway sooo?

I ask cause sometimes when people ask unusual questions it is because they've something weighing on them.
 
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sooo

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What's eating at you anyway sooo?

I ask cause sometimes when people ask unusual questions it is because they've something weighing on them.

Ah, thank you for leading me to my answer :bows:, which is 36. It's a secret.
 

Zimbali

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In Pindar he might suggest 5.

He certainly embedded enough of it.
 
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sooo

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"Deep in the earth their heart listens" Pindar

An interesting poetic rendering of 36.
 

Zimbali

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The secret is what the Greeks called "ainos".

I dont know the Chinese for that. But certainly they have such a word.
 

heylise

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I asked universe. Told me 4 to 27. "I hear you, and see you jaws all over, eager to know, to eat, to digest, to hear, to swallow. Do you really think I will answer what you're not supposed to know? - You can try to find the answer yourself, 4 is a good place to start."
Signed: Universe
 
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sooo

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I asked universe. Told me 4 to 27. "I hear you, and see you jaws all over, eager to know, to eat, to digest, to hear, to swallow. Do you really think I will answer what you're not supposed to know? - You can try to find the answer yourself, 4 is a good place to start."
Signed: Universe

A good answer for the question I originally asked. In fact, without intending to, I wound up asking two related questions. Perhaps this has caused some confusion. The first being about whether Universe (in any broad sense you wish to apply) prevents us (humans) from knowing something. This is what I think Yi's answer to you applies well to, though I did ask for a single uc hexagram.

The second and more Yi-technical question was: in what hexagram does the term "secret" apply, and to this, I am satisfied with the answer clearly being in 36. There's also an irony involved in this answer, which involves the personal answer given to me by the Yi concerning a mystery, for which began the pondering of this impersonal question days ago. I went through all 64 of them several times in my head without any light bulbs going off. Moss' question was the catalyst which made my objective question's answer clear. The idea of a secret contained is in 36: fire or light hidden within the earth - hiding brightness.

The two questions are related in a cause and effect way.
 

Zimbali

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The first being about whether Universe (in any broad sense you wish to apply) prevents us (humans) from knowing something.

There is IMHO a differentiation in a winged 10....and that is how the universe works.

36 one imagines relates to 11, an the application and coordination of matters best for 13, in a manner that is and must be 36, in this smoke and mirrors universal domain.

I'm all for 36. However when at 3 in the early stages comms with the oracle can be somewhat intermittent, and public attempts to induce such don't seem to get far, from personal experience..

... and there seems no vehicle for apologies [whilst in understand now that wordiness and apologies regarding 3 are a 2, for the 4....less is more Zimbali imagines.
 

Zimbali

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In fact, in a nutshell, for the 4, the crux is the 42. At the end of a very long "Ch'ien". And that possibly opens more questions than answers.
 

boyler

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If the Universe were to withhold a secret from mankind, in what hexagram would that be expressed?

"If the Universe(?) were to withhold(?) a secret(?) from mankind(?)", it would not be expressed anywhere ... but we could gusess if there could be something to say about the situation "if the Universe(?) were to reveal(?) a secret(?) to mankind(?)" ... ;)
 

Liselle

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This might shed an interesting light on hex 36 readings, too, if maybe sometimes 36 could be advice to keep something a secret, or to be secretive about it, or to camouflage it or cloak it in secrecy somehow.

I mean, "Hiding Brightness" already contains a similar meaning, but sometimes thinking of something in slightly different words is helpful.
 

Zimbali

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Do you think there is a requirement to at the higher levels of Yijing, to be secretive?

For example to discriminate between superior and inferior, and what should be open to the masses?

Especially related to the symbolism and means of communication? Even what is posted online such as here?
 

Liselle

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Do you mean by the I Ching, or by us? Do you mean that there are things the I Ching wouldn't tell us, as Sooo is saying, or that there is information we could get in readings that we shouldn't share with other people?

I try not to post things that would reveal too much personal information, since this is a public website, but I'm not sure that's what you're getting at.
 

Trojina

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yes do explain exactly who you think these 'masses' are ?
 
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sooo

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Do you think there is a requirement to at the higher levels of Yijing, to be secretive?

For example to discriminate between superior and inferior, and what should be open to the masses?

Especially related to the symbolism and means of communication? Even what is posted online such as here?

If you mean, will Yi reveal to a select few what it won't reveal to others, absolutely not. But I do think it will reveal and/or withhold different answers depending on ones state of mind at the time of the reading. However, neither of these had anything to do with my question(s).

I guess I still have not made my twofold question very clear, though Lisa seems to get my drift for why I presented the question in an impersonal way. It's why I posted it here rather than in Shared Readings, and it's why I reversed the order that a question is typically presented, or at least I tried to.

This exclusive, privileged and enlightened elite view, which you continually allude to, Zimbali, smacks of cultism. I've held to the belief that there's nothing within the Yi that an average 10 year old wouldn't understand, and in fact may take for granted, while we struggle and debate over the most obvious things in nature. I think the emphasis in "young noble", or junzi, is the word "young".
 

pocossin

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Do you think there is a requirement to at the higher levels of Yijing, to be secretive?

Absolutely. What a person sees in a hexagram depends on personal psychology. The typical I Ching user is a fixated verbalist and is unable to respond to a hexagram as a visual object. That is my experience, and there are thousands of examples at Clarity. The requirement for secrecy is that if I attempt to explain myself, I know that I will be misunderstood. Invariably, so why bother?
 

Zimbali

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I mean within those enlightened into the use of Yijing.

Certainly in the early days Yijing as I understand was a matter for the royal courts, or associated with more senior levels of society.

In 10 on RL Wing, in the Wing sections she says, or rather I suppose Confucius says "discriminate between superior and inferior". To my interpretation that sounds like some know more than others. I doubt inferior people would be participating.

Furthermore there is a similar situation in ancient Greek with "ainos" where clear mysteries are know and not revealed.

I would not say either is part of "cult", but rather party to better, new technologies, or understanding.

Thus my question are there higher levels of understanding that are not understood generally.

Nietzsche said regarding Homer something like "No greater a lofty crown was placed on the heads of the masses, as to suggest that the works of Homer, really were taken literally from song of peasant people".

That is where the notion "masses" that I referred to came from.

In ancient Greek, there are certainly higher levels of understanding, that seem sometimes well guarded. Similarly with Kabbalah, only higher level Jewish scholars are passed on the information, or at least in the past that was the case. that is quite well documented. [Hebrew University of Jerusalem, European Mysticism course for example].


My question is, is there a similar situation with the complete understanding of Yijing.

Coming back to "cult". I certainly any not suggesting anything related to "cult" uses.
 

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