Sequence of Events in I Ching

[jazevedo]

Hello everyone,

I would like to share an idea and, at the same time, ask if anyone knows some method to achieve this idea...

I Ching talks about the continuous flow and changes of Qi, let's say "energy" in "western terms". In this sense, more os less, I Ching is like a complex and even so simple math equation. This process helps us to identify changes in relation to some question in the sense that, by consulting I Ching, we merge yang side of analytical thought and yin side related to mystery.

Based on this, we cast an hexagram that represents an energy flow related to the question and present situation. That hexagram can give birth to a second hexagram depending on it's moving lines.

So, help me if I'm wrong but the 63rd (chi chi) hexagram represents the last hexagram of a cicle, the conclusion and perfect balance... After this one, the 64th hexagram, everything starts again, at least that's what several daoist masters say.

Here comes the question (finally!), if I cast the 63rd hexagram, in theory, that would mean that the sequence of events related to the question ended and probably a new cicle would start...

And for example, if I cast hexagram 43? What would be the sequence of hexagrams till the end of the question related cicle? Shao Yong/Fu Xi? Jing Fang? Mawangdui? What?

I hope this makes sense to you... But if we talk about a energy flow, in theory, it does not end in a single hexagram cast! It would continue as a cicle till the end of that cicle!

Can you help me with this?

Thank you very much!

João

 

[patro]

to turn the 63 into 64, or any other hexagram it needs that the "sixth line" of 63 is changing. sorry but i do not know how this method is called, i just make use of it.
this line alone is able to turn the situation upside down and it should be taken into account.
of course to the 63 follows the 64, but not every casting is meant to become the next hexagram. mostly it happens that if you not follow the advice the situ will become 64! meant as a fail, or nothing reached.. meant as complete new begin.
if you ask about the energy flow.. then 63 and 64 are related to the development of hexagram 61-> 62-> 63/64
63 and 64 are special case, because the nuclear of both contains the reversed one of each other.. confirming that the seed of good or bad is contained in every hexagram.. like the tao nature is.

for more advice it could be helpful if you look in Tuck Chang work. his work is not based on Wilhelm translation but on the advice of the monks of a temple in Taiwan..
http://www.iching123.com/43_text.htm
you will find all energies connecting the hexagrams.
give a look also here
http://iching123.blogspot.com/

 

[jazevedo]

Thanks for you feedback Patro,


I need to search for more information because, in theory, there may be an answer for this...
The thing is, if I cast hexagram 43, 37 or whatever and if I follow thoroughly what i ching recommends (sometimes quite impossible in human terms) I should follow a certain energy path that, in theory (again) should leed me to the last hexagram and the beginning of a new cicle. Lets put aside all the human decisions and all the changes we do in the process. There should be a sequence of events or this sounds like nonsense? Nothing is permanent, so no hexagram can stay "frozen" for too long, there's always a sequence path...

Thanks again

 

[patro]

Nothing is permanent, so no hexagram can stay "frozen" for too long, there's always a sequence path...

I think you want to cast a single hexagram and follow the further hexagram evolutions into other hexagrams
not sure but if i recall right this evolution should happen in not more than 3 steps like casted hexagram 43-> 44-> 45

the energy should exhaust in relation to a matter.. there should be not a infinite loop. infinite loop is admit in natural matter like season, night-day, solar-lunar phase etc.. like birth-> death seen in general..
also in some personal situation like when you get as answer a UC 24

but the evolution in realtion to time also, of the energy how you call it, is related to the nature of the hex you cast.
For example 12 .. There is not much energy to follow because the stagnation could last for years, and personally i can assure you this.
A women was trying to get her lover back since a year, she asked if they would be together again, and the woman was very determinate, she got 12!
i told here that there would be no space no future for them together! she did not talk to me anymore! :bows: after 4 years we again met and started to talk.. I asked to tell me about the guy, not mentioning the 12, she answered that he stopped answering on the phone, changing the number.. well till now there is no energy flow to follow. Instead she reached peace as the inverted hexagram is..
but of course even a 12 has a energy path that will develop even if very slow..

now for instance in relation to the 24, there is taken into account that the lines develop from the first to male lines reaching the top... meant in this way
24-> 19 -> 11> 34-> 43... 1-> 23-> 20....
but i could do some mistakes.. so take my example with cautions. and this example shouldn't apply to every hexagram.

i asked few friend about your matter.. maybe they will have an answer..

 

[jazevedo]

Hi Patro!

Thanks again.
I've been studying daoism and casting i ching for 14 years now... It's strange and I don't know why but this question keeps buzzing inside my head...
About the question, I was looking for it only in a theoretical sense just because, as you said, people change and also fight their path and evolution, that's why they change the course of "energy" manifestation (I tend to use energy and not qi just to make things easier).
What happened to that woman and with hex 12 is quite normal but it is totally related to the behaviour adopted/followed (or not, in that case) by the person that receives i ching advice.
If she followed the i ching advice in the first place, most likely hex 12 would not last so long. That's why I question myself if we can study some matter based on the idea of a sequence of events, represented by a sequence of hexagrams, like if it was some kind of "warming" and also advice till the question theme arrives to it's end cycle.

For me, It's not easy trying to express this idea through a other language than my native one. It seems like there's not enough wanksords to explain my ideas. So, thanks for understanding!

 

[patro]

do not worry, i understood the matter you are asking for.. i just added some information that are related to the complexity of the matter you struggling with.

meanwhile i got the answer from my friends on the matter, i copy pasta the one in English

Some people do read the message from the sequence. Usually they only refer to the one before or after.

Usually we see divination through the I Ching as a short-timed effect, one week or two, maximum three months. Things will change.

my other friend answered me in italian, and he said that in case of a UC hexagram, he reads everything related to the hexagram, and he gives a big importance to the ruler line, he also takes into account the advice of the nuclear and the reversed hexagram.
sure that all this is well known to you.

last year i had a similar idea as yours.. how to best follow events/energy.. but the difference is that it apply to changing sentence.. for sure someone else invented the conclusion to which i ended with..
i make an example just to explain it better.
you've got 34 that becomes 31, with the first, second and fifth moving
i read the 3 lines of the 34,
then to have an idea of the energy flow, evolution of everything, i look into the second line of the 32 arriving to 62 and reading its fifth lines that brings me to 31
this way i see the flow of the energy, how my situation will change during the evolution
but it finds application when a hexagram is changing.

so it seams that you made the first step in unknown land.. follow your idea and find a solution :bows:

 

[jazevedo]

Unknown land it is

I have work to do, so let me try to figure this out!

Thanks again.

 

[gene]

Hello everyone,

I would like to share an idea and, at the same time, ask if anyone knows some method to achieve this idea...

I Ching talks about the continuous flow and changes of Qi, let's say "energy" in "western terms". In this sense, more os less, I Ching is like a complex and even so simple math equation. This process helps us to identify changes in relation to some question in the sense that, by consulting I Ching, we merge yang side of analytical thought and yin side related to mystery.

Based on this, we cast an hexagram that represents an energy flow related to the question and present situation. That hexagram can give birth to a second hexagram depending on it's moving lines.

So, help me if I'm wrong but the 63rd (chi chi) hexagram represents the last hexagram of a cicle, the conclusion and perfect balance... After this one, the 64th hexagram, everything starts again, at least that's what several daoist masters say.

Here comes the question (finally!), if I cast the 63rd hexagram, in theory, that would mean that the sequence of events related to the question ended and probably a new cicle would start...

And for example, if I cast hexagram 43? What would be the sequence of hexagrams till the end of the question related cicle? Shao Yong/Fu Xi? Jing Fang? Mawangdui? What?

I hope this makes sense to you... But if we talk about a energy flow, in theory, it does not end in a single hexagram cast! It would continue as a cicle till the end of that cicle!

Can you help me with this?

Thank you very much!

João

I think with some of the answers here we are talking apples and oranges, but I think that might be inevitable because I think your question needs a little more definition. I have an idea what you are asking but not totally sure.

I would say this, there are definitely sequences in the I Ching and all the way throughout in fact. In a minor way, the W/B version indicates this in the third section. But it is just a cursory examination. The I Ching not only incorporates the idea of yin and yang, but also incorporates the idea of a sine wave. We advance, we retreat. We go up, we go down. We expand, we contract.

The last two hexagrams teach us something about thermodynamics which as a general rule, our scientists only understand half of. The western view is that "left to itself, all systems tend to break down." This argument has been used often by creationists to disprove evolution. But there is another aspect to it. When things break down, they reorganize into a new and different form of energy. So everything is at one time, disintegrating and reorganizing at the same time. Reorganization is yang, disintegration is yin. As a rule the sequence of hexagrams hint at a sequence of rise and fall, advance and retreat, organization and disorganization. Life and the universe follow this sequence inevitably, as does Chi, Qi, or energy. What western science does not understand is that energy is alive and intelligent. And it follows universal laws. Therefore hexagram 20 and many other hexagrams speak of understanding these laws. The first two hexagrams describe yin and yang, the last two order and disorder, and all in between hexagrams define various combinations of these states. And they do it while at the same time describing a sequence. This goes beyond what any human being or any group of human beings could discover, therefore the I Ching of necessity comes from a higher source. The possibilities within are infinite, yet they are based on two simple concepts, yin and yang.

There also other kinds of sequences, for example one kind would be the sequence of chi rising up the spine to the crown chakra and then back down again into the lower abdomin. Therefore the rising sequence would be, hexagram 24, 19, 11, 34, 43, and finally 1. The descending would be hexagram 44, 33, 12, 20, 23, and 2. You can see I'm sure a numerical correspondence in the two sequences. This goes into higher levels though that are beyond my understanding. In essence, there are no end to sequences in the I Ching.

 

[jazevedo]

I think with some of the answers here we are talking apples and oranges, but I think that might be inevitable because I think your question needs a little more definition. I have an idea what you are asking but not totally sure.

I would say this, there are definitely sequences in the I Ching and all the way throughout in fact. In a minor way, the W/B version indicates this in the third section. But it is just a cursory examination. The I Ching not only incorporates the idea of yin and yang, but also incorporates the idea of a sine wave. We advance, we retreat. We go up, we go down. We expand, we contract.

The last two hexagrams teach us something about thermodynamics which as a general rule, our scientists only understand half of. The western view is that "left to itself, all systems tend to break down." This argument has been used often by creationists to disprove evolution. But there is another aspect to it. When things break down, they reorganize into a new and different form of energy. So everything is at one time, disintegrating and reorganizing at the same time. Reorganization is yang, disintegration is yin. As a rule the sequence of hexagrams hint at a sequence of rise and fall, advance and retreat, organization and disorganization. Life and the universe follow this sequence inevitably, as does Chi, Qi, or energy. What western science does not understand is that energy is alive and intelligent. And it follows universal laws. Therefore hexagram 20 and many other hexagrams speak of understanding these laws. The first two hexagrams describe yin and yang, the last two order and disorder, and all in between hexagrams define various combinations of these states. And they do it while at the same time describing a sequence. This goes beyond what any human being or any group of human beings could discover, therefore the I Ching of necessity comes from a higher source. The possibilities within are infinite, yet they are based on two simple concepts, yin and yang.

There also other kinds of sequences, for example one kind would be the sequence of chi rising up the spine to the crown chakra and then back down again into the lower abdomin. Therefore the rising sequence would be, hexagram 24, 19, 11, 34, 43, and finally 1. The descending would be hexagram 44, 33, 12, 20, 23, and 2. You can see I'm sure a numerical correspondence in the two sequences. This goes into higher levels though that are beyond my understanding. In essence, there are no end to sequences in the I Ching.

Hi Gene, thanks for your answer!

I guess you are talking about a system like this:

http://http://fourpillars.net/pdf/kingwen.pdf

http://fourpillars.net/pdf/ic_landscape.pdf

The thing is... and I'll try to explain it again. I ching should represent all manifestations of a situation, and it does. So, i ching should also be able to identify the present "energy tendence" and tell us the direction and the sequence of hexagrams until the end of the question asked. Because we change course of action i ching change as well the course of energy tendency. And what if we follow exactly what i ching recommends? we should be a sequence of hexagrams (as events) until we get i ching's last hexagram. Like in nature, the sun rises and makes a path, a circular one until evening. The sun does not rise and stops and things follow an irrational course. Is it better this way?

Thanks again

João

 

[gene]

Hi Gene, thanks for your answer!

I guess you are talking about a system like this:

http://http://fourpillars.net/pdf/kingwen.pdf

http://fourpillars.net/pdf/ic_landscape.pdf

The thing is... and I'll try to explain it again. I ching should represent all manifestations of a situation, and it does. So, i ching should also be able to identify the present "energy tendence" and tell us the direction and the sequence of hexagrams until the end of the question asked. Because we change course of action i ching change as well the course of energy tendency. And what if we follow exactly what i ching recommends? we should be a sequence of hexagrams (as events) until we get i ching's last hexagram. Like in nature, the sun rises and makes a path, a circular one until evening. The sun does not rise and stops and things follow an irrational course. Is it better this way?

Thanks again

João

Well, what I am talking about is a sine wave alright. I didn't know anybody but me had ever talked about that. Makes me curious. Did someone follow up on my work? Or did someone come to this independently? Actually, I don't think it is such a secret that it is a sine wave, I'm sure many people have picked up on that. All of nature seems to follow that. The moon circles the earth and the earth circles the sun, but compare the moon to the sun, it moves in a sign wave. And as the sun no doubt circles a star, the earth in relation to the star forms a sine wave. In the same way all communications systems travelling through wires or space form a sine wave. It is the nature of the universe. So the I Ching has to be the same way.

 

[jazevedo]

Well, what I am talking about is a sine wave alright. I didn't know anybody but me had ever talked about that. Makes me curious. Did someone follow up on my work? Or did someone come to this independently? Actually, I don't think it is such a secret that it is a sine wave, I'm sure many people have picked up on that. All of nature seems to follow that. The moon circles the earth and the earth circles the sun, but compare the moon to the sun, it moves in a sign wave. And as the sun no doubt circles a star, the earth in relation to the star forms a sine wave. In the same way all communications systems travelling through wires or space form a sine wave. It is the nature of the universe. So the I Ching has to be the same way.

That's exactly my point, at least for the last 14 years! so... a lot of people seems to have more or less the same idea as you ahaha. But the thing is... What should be the pattern? Is it like the documents I showed?

 

[gene]

That's exactly my point, at least for the last 14 years! so... a lot of people seems to have more or less the same idea as you ahaha. But the thing is... What should be the pattern? Is it like the documents I showed?

jazevedo.

I would have to go through the whole thread to see exactly what you mean about the documents. And I will try to do that. For now, though, I read the first post, and as far as 63 and 64 goes, yes, they indicate a cycle. In physics there is a law of thermodynamics that says, "left to itself, all things tend to disintegrate over time." This in reality is only half the law, the other half is that when things disintegrate they recombine into new forms and evolve again." Therefore there is no end. Science in general does not understand this but the ancients did. Hexagrams 63 and 64 are an exposition of this law. Therefore, when anything is perfect, its deterioration is inevitable, and when things deteriorate, they return to a form of equilibrium. Everything in life is this way. We die, our bodies disintegrate, but we come back in a new form. Things are young, they grow up, (hexagram 3) then they mature, then they get old. Then they die. That is true not only of life, but of all particles, all matter in the universe. It is a never ending cycle. Things get pressed into a black hole, then they blow out in a sort of big bang, and it starts all over again. The cycle is endless (however, there are cycles within cycles within cycles) In hexagram 63 things have attained perfection, but they cannot stay that way, in hexagram 64, we are born again, with the yin and the yang within us, (hexagrams 1 and 2) then we start the growth process, hexagram 3. Then we learn and grow, hexagram four. Then with nourishment we grow some more. (hexagram 5.) Then as we grow we learn to compete with others and fight for our place in life, (hexagram 6) In hexagram 7 we become full fledged battlers, and in hexagram 8 we learn our place in society. We could go on with this. But for every growth pattern, their is also a decline. Throughout the I Ching, the lines we get determine this pattern and where we are on the curve. In hexagram 47 we are troubled and cannot see ourselves well. In forty eight (the well, pun intended) we gain wisdom from the master. In thirty three we retreat, in thirty four we advance. In fifty three we slowly advance while in hexagram 54 we return to the home. The same in thirty five and thirty six. Everywhere we see opposites and we see various positions on the sine wave. As Lao Tzu said, "There is no up without a down, no right without a left, no darkness without light." And we are always cycling between these opposites. This subject has far reaching implications, and I cannot say more at this point. Maybe later.

 

[Tohpol]

I ching should represent all manifestations of a situation, and it does. So, i ching should also be able to identify the present "energy tendence" and tell us the direction and the sequence of hexagrams until the end of the question asked. Because we change course of action i ching change as well the course of energy tendency. And what if we follow exactly what i ching recommends? we should be a sequence of hexagrams (as events) until we get i ching's last hexagram. Like in nature, the sun rises and makes a path, a circular one until evening. The sun does not rise and stops and things follow an irrational course. Is it better this way?

Well, the sine wave is almost like the golden ratio in terms of its ubiquity in mathematics, sound, vibration and geometry. And obviously it's no surprise that the Yin-Yang symbol itself is made of two sine waves so it must fractally replicate right through the hexagrams on a rise and fall trajectory of "events" as you suggest. (This also links to Gurdjieff's Law of the Octaves perhaps... at least, tangentially).

So, I very much look forward to seeing what you manage to create...:bows: