shocking!

[dobro p]

Yan2 (words, speech) occurs 12 times in the Yi. 51 has the largest number, with it cropping up three times in that hex alone. It seems that shock triggers speech. If that's so, then this site must either be terribly shocking, or have a lot of shocked people who like to hang out here.

 

[jesed]

or have a lot of shocked people who like to hang out here.

Well, just take a look to the shared readings area

Best

 

[Trojina]

Thats what i was thinking

 

[fkegan]

Do individual words or overall meaning rule?

Yan2 (words, speech) occurs 12 times in the Yi. 51 has the largest number, with it cropping up three times in that hex alone. It seems that shock triggers speech. If that's so, then this site must either be terribly shocking, or have a lot of shocked people who like to hang out here.

There is always a problem of looking first at the words or the repetition of words before noticing the meaning. In hex 51 the same phrase is repeated a number of times, so of course the words in that phrase are repeated.

The meaning of the hexagram is based upon the contrast of a situation of general shock forcing regular folks into stunned silence contrasted to that 1 in a 100 who is so centered that they are able to continue their activities and speak normally.

Taken in context this hexagram points to a meaning exactly opposite to what Dobro assumes...shock doesn't trigger talk, rather those who are able to still act and speak despite lightning strikes nearby are special people.

Starting from a clearly flawed premise the further conclusions seem to get even farther from the mark. On a talk board is it in any way shocking that folks post? Or what is the environment of thunderbolts that is being assumed to induce this talk? Or is it to be believed that since a poetic phrase including the word "talk, speech" based upon the ideogram of lines issuing forth from an open mouth is repeated three times that therefore the overall theme of the hexagram 'Shock' (Thunder--very nearby) is somehow inextricably tied to one of the words that just happens to be in that phrase 'talk' (in the sense of normal speech)?

Frank

 

[rosada]

47. The superior man stakes his life on following his will.

He never gives up, but continues to..

48. Encourage the people at their work.

And lo! We finally get it together and create something ( a well) together none of us could have created alone.

49. Revolutionary! Mind expanding! We actually are successful!

The superior man now looks at a calendar, the stars, whatever to see how such great accomplishments can occur again because the superior man wants to

50.Consolidate his fate by making his position correct.

That is, seeing what was accomplished, seeing we are fated to be successful we want to get in position for it so..

51. The superior man sets his life in order and examines himself.

Knowing where we are now and comparing that to where we need to be creates shock and leads to talk and self examination.

 

[fkegan]

Hi Rosada,
Remarkable how one can take a string of Wilhelm image text and fit it to a specific thread topic. The punchline you end with:

Knowing where we are now and comparing that to where we need to be creates shock and leads to talk and self examination.

is probably as good a response as there is to the original statement that shock produces talk-- although the actual Chinese text highlights the terrified muteness of most in a time of shock which Wilhelm/Baynes highlights as just a generalized "terrifies for 100 miles" while the distinguished subject shines by not being upset (or talking particularly).

Even with the run of image text, is there any connection between chen thunder or shock and talking? Is the shock of self-awareness of our falling short of where we need to be more of the inner self-examination quiet, perhaps discussed a bit with others or is it talk shaken loose by the power of the shock?

Frank

 

[rosada]

As the I Ching tends to follow a pattern of one hexagram leading to it's complete opposite, wouldn't it make sense that 52. Keeping Still is indicating that the previous hex. 51. The Arousing, is the noisiest one of the whole book?

On the other hand, 51's visual of Thunder (and I presume lightening) suggests a flash of enlightenment that doesn't require discussion. The "talk" could just be the yelping sound one makes when one looks in the mirror and sees the truth.

Interesting that the JUDGEMENT concludes by saying one does not let fall the sacrificial spoon and chalice.
I see this as saying the enlightenment reveals that all is ritual. This life we are living was all determined with the original big bang, we are all now just riding that wave. When we see that, it's a shock, but we realize we have no choice but to get with the program.

Occurs to me that the "talk" here at onlineclarity is carried on in total silence...

 

[Trojina]

Dunno if theres any connection between shock and talk but it made me wonder, and probably theres lots of studies done already, whether shock was the thing that pushed us as a species to talk..or at least the threat of danger as in 'look out theres a woolly mammoth behind you !!'. Or maybe there was no specific evolutionary trigger for speech, I guess we'll never know. In animals anyhow shock gives rise to alot of noise making... raising alarm. Does 51 include meaning around raising alarm ? I think it kind of does. Everyones screaming blue murder all around you and regardless of the woolly mammoth you don't drop your bowl.

Also on the friends area cos I'd say most questions there are not of the reflective type, they generally have a sense of 'answer me now something terrible is happening', that is they seem inspired by what is alarming or shocking to the querant. Infact i often get the sense the 'querant' (for want of a better word) actually feels endangered by lack of response from the boyfriend/girlfriend. Questions over less immediate, subjectively 'urgent' concerns seem rare... like say Rosadas question on the use of ritual, a very rare jewel in that its not inspired by panic.

51 is arousal/excitement of any kind i think and where there is excitement theres lots of talk. Where theres any disturbance there lots of talk, so yes i can see a connection between 51 and talk

 

[fkegan]

Hi Trojan and Rosada,
Hexagrams in the King Wen Sequence are in pairs, opposite in line value, but the difference in meaning follows different rules. Both hex 51 and hex 52 deal with inner personal expressions only somewhat similar to the nature symbolism, 51 with not being upset by the shock of thunder nearby and 52 with standing tall and still like a mountain or two in various levels of meditation.

The association of talk to hex 51 was purely Dobro's personal tangent. The Wilhelm text (and even more Yellowbridge Chinese details) refers to shock and terror that silences folks generally but doesn't interfere with the subject who is centered and keeps up with his ritual unconcerned by the expression of Cosmic power. No emphasis upon talk at all, just an incidental use of a phrase in a hexagram which repeats the poetry of that phrase several times.

Human evolution developing speech remains a major controversy with Noam Chomsky having made his name originally as a linguist coming up with the notion that language and grammar could be pure logic rather than arising from communication needs. The one clarity nowadays seems to be that proto-humans developed the power to make complex sounds long before they had any particular use of language. Much of human evolution, certainly starting with bipedalism seems to have evolved for other reasons, and then in the last 100,000 years humans made use of all these fascinating abilities that our bodies just had and hadn't any use for yet.

As for disturbance causing talk--hex 6 has various associations to being fundamentally a crowd which it is assumed would naturally give rise to talk and that lead to conflict. Hex 51 generally seems to be speaking of a more complex and Cosmic development like major earthquakes thundering about causing folks to fall into terrified silence except for the most centered and focused who just keep on with their Cosmic connections.

Frank

 

[cesca]

Just throwing some ideas into the pot, on the connection between shock and talk....

I'm thinking of it in terms of shock as a traumatic event. One of the ways people recover from trauma is by talking about it. Sometimes they have to tell the story over and over and over, before they can relate to the event in a way that doesn't trigger an automatic and overwhelming emotional and nervous system arousal.

On the other hand, the Judgement actually says (using Brad's translation): "fear and alarm, and mirthful words and echoing laughter". This sounds more like the dissociation that people sometimes experience in the wake of trauma, where the event is SO overwhelming that they recount it with inappropriate emotion, like hysterical laughter. It's like trauma blows us apart, so that our parts don't connect up -- and one of the signs of recovery is when the emotions become congruent with the story again.

Cesca

 

[Trojina]

I think it was Freud (not sure) who said laughter was aroused in infancy through being disconcerted, uncomfortable, not sure what to make of something, something almost mildly frightening, a kind of shock followed by relief. Must be as babies don't have a sense of irony etc and what they first find funny are games like peep po (lol well thats what i call it) where you hide something for a moment, your face or an object and then bring it out again - cue babies shock/ relief/delight. Also connecting laughter with tension/relief its been shown when a group of people first meet there alot of laughing and its not cos anything is that funny but to release tension and make bonds

Wonder if 51 is the only place in the Yi laughter is mentioned ? Hmm theres laughing in 37.3 with a more negative implication of triviality.

 

[Trojina]

As for disturbance causing talk--hex 6 has various associations to being fundamentally a crowd which it is assumed would naturally give rise to talk and that lead to conflict. Hex 51 generally seems to be speaking of a more complex and Cosmic development like major earthquakes thundering about causing folks to fall into terrified silence except for the most centered and focused who just keep on with their Cosmic connections.

Frank

I don't know about that. Seems to me, from my experience and viewing others readings, hexagram 51 is about all kinds of excitement/arousal. It comes up time and time again where people are in states of infatuation and I associate it with passion and heightened feeling.(as well as all other kinds of shock of course, trauma etc) I don't see hexagram 6 as concerning experience of intense passions very much - actually it always seems an especially cerebral hexagram to me. That is the conflict may not be cerebral but the negotiating of it generally is

 

[maremaria]

I like a lot LiSe’s comments on line 51.4

51.4 A shock often makes people talk a lot of nonsense. Let them, they are cleaning up inside. Stay nice and they will calm down again and find themselves back - better than they were before.

When overwhelming emotion possesses us we need, at least I do, to talk and talk about it a lot. Without being an expert I believe we do it not only to be heard by our friends but also hear our own self. I have hear my self, during a “nonsense” -crying -laughing chat , saying things that had no idea they were in my mind. First reaction “oops, where did that came from ?????”

 

[cesca]

Seems to me, from my experience and viewing others readings, hexagram 51 is about all kinds of excitement/arousal. It comes up time and time again where people are in states of infatuation and I associate it with passion and heightened feeling.(as well as all other kinds of shock of course, trauma etc)

Hmmm, yeah, I'll go with that. In my Yi study group last week, we were working with the trigram Zhen, and when they were recalling their own 'Zhen' experiences, there was a lot of enthusiastic agreement on 'the thunderbolt', in the sense of falling in love. 'Pole-axed' was also mentioned.


Cesca