Skuo Kua / Discussion of the Trigrams

[pantherpanther]

I've never, even in the beginning, felt at ease with Wilhelm's use of such terms as moral law, unless that was Baynes' choice of words? The IC never seemed to me to be about morals, and it wasn't until I arrived here that, through people like Bradford, Kevin and Chris (how's that for diverse influences), I could begin to sort distinctions between ethics and morals, and which belong to the natural world and which to the human mind. Also were considerations of personal or collective origins of concepts of morals vs ethics. Since then, the difference is night and day, in my mind. That is probably a separate subject.

The first four characters in the I Ching are Yuan Heng Li Zhen. Some Confucians , as Wilhelm's teacher, interpreted the meaning as the "four virtues". Others interpret the meaning differently. One reading is "Sign of the great sacrifice. Auspicious omen." It is a common belief that to understand "yuan heng li zhen" properly is to understand the underlying qualities of Heaven and Earth. It is about impartial universal laws,which humans frame in various ways, as "ethical" or "moral" or other. (Note my next post on Wang Bi etc)

I think it may be an obligatory recognition of the authority of the Creator. Many cultures have a dedicatory prayer at the beginning of a sacred book (which people also use when first undertaking some task in life): as Holy God, Holy Firm, Holy Immortal or Holy-Affirming, Holy-Denying,Holy-Reconciling,Have Mercy Upon Us, for example. In Christianity, as an analogy , there is the the Lord's Prayer ( a complete teaching like the I Ching in itself), which has the words, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

 

[pantherpanther]

Panther, what do you mean by "laws of world creation and world maintenance"? Not the laws of physics, I think. Maybe something like the interpretation of events in terms of hexagrams and trigrams?

There is a correspondance to the ideas of modern physics and the I Ching, isn't there?

The I Ching expresses the core of cosmic principles as simple, variable and persistent - despite the universe being in constant change there is a persistent principle that is immune to time and space.

Wang Bi makes his view clear in his commentary on the word “One.” For him, the One is not used referentially in terms of some external thing, nor is it a number. It is that on which numbers depend. Wang does not believe that the One is a being. On the contrary, it is the mysterious center of things, like the hub of a wheel. On Daodejing 25, Wang writes, “It is spoken of as ‘Dao’ insofar as there is thus something [for things] to come from.”

The working of the laws in time and space, according to number, as described in the I Ching corresponds to the observations and theories of many physicists based on their study of matter (the 4% of the universe that they can see). The rest of the universe was visible to those who composed the I Ching . Many finer energies were visible to them.

But the effects of so-called "dark matter" and "black holes" are being noticed by inference by scientists, which is leading to a greater understanding of how the laws of world creation and world maintenance work in material life and how to apply them increasingly through technology in the past fifty years.Much of modern civilization is dependent on this technology today. The destruction of satellites could create chaos. What is obviously lacking is the wisdom of how humans relate to universal laws and how to act as normal beings on the earth. The I Ching is a guide to becoming normal or "more human" through knowing the laws.

"The Book of Changes is in harmony with tao and its power (natural and moral law).

Therefore it can lay down the rules of what is right for each person.

The ultimate meaning of the world - fate, the world as it is, how it has come to be so through creative design (ming) - can be apprehended by going down to the ultimate sources in the world of outer experience and of inner experience.

Both paths lead to the same goal. (Cf. the first chapter of Lao-tse.)"
-Wilhelm

 

[pantherpanther]

Hi pocossin,

I'm sure Wilhelm recognized the inner life and many things. It was only divination, in particular, the use of the Yi Oracle to answer personal questions that he and virtually all academics refuse to consider.

Better to check with Brad, he mentioned not to bother searching academic papers for divination, there are none. It does seems strange to translate a book mostly known for its Oracle and oracle use without any interest in divination. But that is the reality.

Inner life, sure, Divination, not so much. I always assumed it was a Christian thing, that God was only available through prayer and Church. Wilhelm describes how to cast the Oracle, he just never does it and never recognizes anything having to do with actual divination. Sorry...
[snip]

Frank

My impression, which my friend S. Cammann didn't dispute, was that Chinese studies in the West was not on the level of other fields- as biblical studies and near east archeology, Egyptian hieroglyphics and so on. The few sources used and made available by Chinese scholars are sparse in comparison. Endymion Wilkinson's "Chinese History: A Manual", first published in 1998 by the Harvard-Yenching Institute at Harvard University is an exception. There is nothing on Chinese divination, I think, that compares to Michael Wood's "The Road to Delphi: The Life and Afterlife of Oracles." The full transmission of the Yi diviners may have been lost long before Confucius.

 

[meng]

If you can make a clear distinction of morals, ethics and mores you are doing very well.

My thesis adviser defined ethics as the branch of philosophy that was soluble in alcohol, which generally works pretty well too.

After more thought, I probably overstated the level of my clarity, in terms of explaining them. That is, when I ask myself, ok, exactly what is this clear distinction, in clear words? So I have to chuckle at the "soluble in alcohol" comment, and to some degree agree.

I find ethics to be more subtle, and it's this pliable factor, self reflection and consideration of circumstances - and including in spite of circumstances - which distinguishes ethics.

Morals are written in stone, whether they be the kind of cosmic laws (things we've defined as such anyway, i.e. black holes, dark matter, gravity) or the man made kind, which we have written into various stones. Then the stones themselves become the law, which becomes the mores. And it's that which made me a bit cold toward embracing Wilhelm. I also find people who embrace Wilhelm exclusively might absorb its cold, judgmental and moralist influence, just as those of a church congregation might absorb cold theology.

In the wild, ethics are always at work, but only one law: survival. And that law is supported by ethics, which when combined with all the inhabitants, ethical coexistence forms the collective mores, or the law of the land; at least until a new species is introduced or goes extinct.

Interpreting the Yijing is a more natural experience (for me) by following the more pliable and living ethical (and thus wild) way, than enslaving myself to a set of laws.

 

[pocossin]

It was only divination, in particular, the use of the Yi Oracle to answer personal questions that he and virtually all academics refuse to consider.

We do not know directly what Wilhelm thought about divination. I don't, anyway, but his respect for the book is obvious. Wilhelm returned from China to a defeated and economically devastated Germany after WWI. He had a family to support, and could voice no view that would deny him employment.

 

[rosada]

2. In ancient times the holy sages made the Book of Changes thus:
Their purpose was to follow the order of their nature and of fate.

Therefore they determined the tao of heaven and called it the dark and the light.
They determined the tao of the earth and called it the yielding and the firm.
They determined the tao of man and called it love [in the sense of humane feeling] and rectitude.

They combined these three fundamental powers and doubled them; therefore in the Book of Changes a sign is always formed by six lines.
The places are divided into the dark and the light. The yielding and the firm occupy these by turns. Therefore the Book of Changes has six places, which constitute the linear figures.
-Wilhelm

 

[Sparhawk]

As an intrinsic part of Chinese culture over millennia, divination was never ignored by Wilhelm. As a matter of fact, he dedicates a whole chapter to occultism in his book "The Soul of China", first translated into English and published in London in 1928. Here are a few excerpts that specifically mention the Yijing:

"It is always and experience to go up to this mountain. You
continue to see its cloudy top rise up out of the host of the other
hills and it seems as if it were revealing a secret every time: the
secret of the connection between life and death in that great
stillness whose symbol is the sign 'Mountain' in The Book of Change.
And one thinks of that other line: 'I will lift up mine eyes unto
the hills, from whence cometh my help.' (*) After all, the revelation of
a secret is also expressed in these words."

Richard Wilhelm, The Soul of China, Ch.8, Pg 128.
​

"When I had waited for a while quietly and had, as it were,
collected myself, the mountain seemed to open its eyes. One image
after another stepped out of the night, became alive and began to
talk. The large images uttered deep powerful chords, the mall and
ever smaller ones resounded with a delicate melody, and eventually
the room in the depth of the mountain was filled with a heavenly
song of praise, which continued at a greater and greater distance
more and more delicately right up to the greatest heights. When I had
passed through this inner experience of an inaudible heavenly music,
I understood why in the old legends they speak so often of cave
heavens. These legends and sagas have found their last expression
still in the 'Peach-blossom-well' of T'ao Yuan Ming. I also realized
why among the signs of The Book of Change the 'Heaven in the midst
of the mountain' occurs as a picture where it says: 'Thus the
nobleman learns many words of the ancient days and deeds of the past
to advance his being.' Have these things not been said as if in view
of such a sanctuary in which the centuries look down upon us and
widen and enlarge the soul?"

Richard Wilhelm, The Soul of China, Ch.9, Pg 140.
​

"'What appears at first,' said the geomancer, 'is a setting of the
sun, a victory of the negative forces. When the destructive forces
have attained their zenith, a new light will no doubt begin to
shine, just as the new day begins at midnight. But in China the
night is just beginning to fall.' 'The old Jews,' I threw in, 'had a
beautiful custom, they began the day at sunset, this is a symbol for
their faith in God's power, which they always regarded in the hour of
darkness, and universal catastrophe as something which was about to
come.' 'This view is also compatible with our Book of Change,'
replied the geomancer. 'The evening is the zenith of the powers of
darkness, from then on the more they manifest themselves the more
they exhaust themselves.'"

Richard Wilhelm, The Soul of China, Ch.11, Pg 176-177.
​

"His name was 'Lao,' his ancestors came from the region of Mount
Lao, from which the family had derived its name, and he resembled,
in every detail, the old man who had visited me in my dream. We set
about our work. We translated a certain amount and read a great
deal, and daily conversation initiated me into the profundity of the
structure of Chinese culture. Master Lao suggested that I should
translate The Book of Change. It would not be easy, but he said it
was not as unintelligible as it was usually supposed to be. He
declared that it was a fact that its vital tradition was on the
point of expiring. He, however, had had a teacher who was still
fully imbued with the old tradition. His family was closely related
to the descendants of Confucius. He owned a bundle of the holy
milfoil poles from the tomb of Confucius, and he still knew the art
which had also become almost unknown in China of working out an
oracle by their aid. Accordingly we proceeded to work upon the book.
We worked accurately. He explained the text in Chinese and I made my
notes. I then translated the text for myself into German. I
thereupon translated my German text without the original into
Chinese, and he compared it to see if my translation was correct in
all particulars. The German text was then gone over to improve the
style, and it was discussed in detail. I then wrote three to four
other versions and added the most important commentaries. Before the
work was finished the war broke out, and my reverend master Lao
returned with other scholars into the interior of China. The
translation lay there unfinished. I was beginning to fear that it
would never be completed, when I received an unexpected letter from
him asking if I could put him up as he wanted to return to Tsingtao
to complete the translation of the book. My joy can be imagined when
he really came, and the work was then completed. After that I went
on leave to Germany. My old master died during my absence, after he
had put his testament into my hands."

Richard Wilhelm, The Soul of China, Ch.11, Pg 180-181.
​

"The old culture of China blossoms in a northern and a southern form
which fertilize each other and thus create a unity of immense
duration. The northern form of this culture groups itself about the
bed of the Yellow River. The Yellow River is not navigable in its
lower reaches; it becomes more difficult as it approaches the coast
and this culture seems thus to be of a continental origin. The east
and the sea are reached only at a late period. It was the work of
the great Yu, one of the heroes of the culture of this region, to
give the rivers access to the sea, and thus to secure the country
against inundations and to make it habitable.
The old Chinese state is a religious formation reposing upon
a cosmic foundation, which is conditioned astrologically. Heaven,
Earth and Man are the three world forces and it is man's function to
bring the other two into harmony: Heaven, the creative power of
temporal events, and the Earth, the receptive power of expansion in
space. Heaven reveals the images which the chosen realize; The Book
of Change, in which this phrase occurs, is based upon the
recognition that quiescent conditions are not the ultimate reality,
but the spiritual law from which events receive their significance
and the impulse towards constant change. The man who wished to be
effective must match the seeds and sow in the field of future."

Richard Wilhelm, The Soul of China, Ch.20, Pg 355.

​

(*) Psalm 121:1

 

[Trojina]

We do not know directly what Wilhelm thought about divination. I don't, anyway, but his respect for the book is obvious. Wilhelm returned from China to a defeated and economically devastated Germany after WWI. He had a family to support, and could voice no view that would deny him employment.

do you mean WW2 ?

 

[Sparhawk]

do you mean WW2 ?

Nope, Tom is correct, WW1. Wilhelm returned to Germany, to die there, in the late 1920's. Germany was in the grip of the Treaty of Versailles and economic conditions were awful. German paper currency of the time, for example, was worth less than toilet paper, literally. Those goons in 1919 that tried to humiliate Germany by making it pay through its teeth, in virtual perpetuity, were actually paving the road for WWII.

Actually, Germany, though virtually destroyed after WWII, fared much better in the aftermath. The Marshall Plan wasn't a humiliation but the smart thing to do, not only for Europe in general, but for Germany in particular. I can actually picture some of those generals thinking along the lines of the Yijing to come up with it.

 

[pantherpanther]

2. In ancient times the holy sages made the Book of Changes thus:
Their purpose was to follow the order of their nature and of fate.


The idea that the One or Tao underlies and unites all phenomena is stressed in Wang’ Bi's commentary on the I Ching. The Holy sages constructed the I Ching based on this knowledge.

Through the One or Tao , Heaven , Earth and Man become a part of a higher order, like our solar system is a part of the galaxy, the Milky Way. The center of the galaxy, according to science is a “black hole”. This is called “the sun behind the sun” by the Sufis. For Wang Bi it is the "Dark Darkness," Nothing, the Tao or One.

 

[pocossin]

There is a correspondence to the ideas of modern physics and the I Ching, isn't there?

Poetically, yes. There is a human satisfaction in an expansive and comprehensive interpretation by which universe acquires moral value. The Ten Commandments is based on an astrological interpretation of the cosmos. The connection between universe and ethics was continued by Greek astrology, a connection broken at the beginning of modern science. Poe attempted restoration in Eureka. I have not found a satisfactory modern interpretation.

 

[pocossin]

If you can make a clear distinction of morals, ethics and mores you are doing very well.

Ethics you know, morals you feel, mores you do.

 

[cyberlight369]

Celestial and Terrestrial Numbers

cyberlight369
New Member

Celestial and Terrestrial Numbers
from Guenon , "The Great Triad"

"Because they are yang, odd numbers may be called celestial and even numbers, because they are yin, may be called terrestrial, but beyond this all together general consideration there are certain numbers that are attributed especially to To Heaven and to Earth, and this calls for other explanations."

Now, what must be borne in mind here is that unity, being properly the principle of number, cannot itself be counted as a number; in reality what it represents can only be anterior to the distinction of Heaven and Earth, and we have already seen that corresponds to the common principle of both of them, namely, T'ai Chi , the Being that is identical to the metaphysical Unity itself. Thus while 2 is the first even number, it is 3 and not 1 that is considered the first odd number; consequently 2 is the number of Earth and 3 the number of Heaven; but then, since 2 comes before 3 in the series of numbers, Earth appears to be before Heaven just as yin appears to be before yang."

 

[fkegan]

My impression, which my friend S. Cammann didn't dispute, was that Chinese studies in the West was not on the level of other fields- as biblical studies and near east archeology, Egyptian hieroglyphics and so on. The few sources used and made available by Chinese scholars are sparse in comparison. Endymion Wilkinson's "Chinese History: A Manual", first published in 1998 by the Harvard-Yenching Institute at Harvard University is an exception. There is nothing on Chinese divination, I think, that compares to Michael Wood's "The Road to Delphi: The Life and Afterlife of Oracles." The full transmission of the Yi diviners may have been lost long before Confucius.

Hi All,

That is why it's nice that we can establish original contact with the Chou Yi by our own divination with our own coins, yarrow or computer. Divination being a subjective art is a living process and no journal report or objective description can be of much more than historical interest.

I see I will need a nap before delving more into these murky waters. The four initial ideograms Panther referred to are the key slogans of the Yi and how one translates them determines the slant and flavor of the entire work. Gia-Fu used Primal Bliss. Fruitful to have zest. Wilhelm had the famous: sublime success. Perseverance Furthers which maintains the word count.

And yes, Trojan, R. Wilhelm was a thoroughly late 19th century fellow. I think his son Helmet gave his lectures closer to the rematch of WWI. And as Orwell implied in his 1984 there is nothing philosophical after WWII, until at least right now. Lucky US.

Frank

 

[tuckchang]

Chapter 2

Chapter 2 introduces an important concept of Yi: 三才 (san cai), which I interpret as ‘three domains’, i.e. positions 1 and 2 are regarded as the earth domain; positions 3 and 4, the human domain; positions 5 and 6, the sky domain.

Usually I refer the lines within the earth domain to those at the incubation stage; the lines within the human domain are those at the developing stage, while the lines within the sky domain are those at the developed stage.
This concept does facilitate the analysis of the lines of a hexagram, for instant, Hex 1 and 2.

My comprehension of chapter 2:
In ancient times the saint who invented Yi conformed to the principle of life. Consequently those which build the norm of the sky are the masculine and the feminine, those which build the norm of the earth are rigidity and softness, and those which build the norm of human beings are benevolence and justice. By outfitting three domains with two lines each (兼三才而兩之), Yi possesses six lines to form a hexagram (故易六畫而成卦). By discriminating between the masculine and the feminine, shifting between rigidity and softness, Yi possesses six positions to establish its contents (i.e. the text).

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[pantherpanther]

Chapter 2 introduces an important concept of Yi: 三才 (san cai), which I interpret as ‘three domains’, i.e. positions 1 and 2 are regarded as the earth domain; positions 3 and 4, the human domain; positions 5 and 6, the sky domain.

Usually I refer the lines within the earth domain to those at the incubation stage; the lines within the human domain are those at the developing stage, while the lines within the sky domain are those at the developed stage.
This concept does facilitate the analysis of the lines of a hexagram, for instant, Hex 1 and 2.

My comprehension of chapter 2:
In ancient times the saint who invented Yi conformed to the principle of life. Consequently those which build the norm of the sky are the masculine and the feminine, those which build the norm of the earth are rigidity and softness, and those which build the norm of human beings are benevolence and justice. By outfitting three domains with two lines each (兼三才而兩之), Yi possesses six lines to form a hexagram (故易六畫而成卦). By discriminating between the masculine and the feminine, shifting between rigidity and softness, Yi possesses six positions to establish its contents (i.e. the text).

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

How do you understand the Tao here, as "the principle of life" which is beyond (our) space and time ? Does the interpretation of the three domains have the same aim as the process Wang Bi calls "forgetting" in order to reach the ideas or principles which determine the conditions in the three domains ? Wilhelm seems to recognize the three domains are subject to the cosmic order (as our solar system is subject to its galaxy) - the "spiritual law" from which "The man who wished to be effective must match the seeds and sow in the field of future ."

"The old Chinese state is a religious formation reposing upon a cosmic foundation, which is conditioned astrologically. Heaven, Earth and Man are the three world forces and it is man's function to bring the other two into harmony: Heaven, the creative power of temporal events, and the Earth, the receptive power of expansion in space. Heaven reveals the images which the chosen realize; The Book of Change, in which this phrase occurs, is based upon the recognition that quiescent conditions are not the ultimate reality, but the spiritual law from which events receive their significance and the impulse towards constant change. The man who wished to be effective must match the seeds and sow in the field of future."
Richard Wilhelm, The Soul of China, p 355.

"Therefore someone who stays fixed on the words will not be one to get the images, and someone who stays fixed on the images will not be one to get the ideas. The images are generated by the ideas, but if one stays fixed on the images themselves, then what he stays fixed on will not be images as we mean them here. The words are generated by the images, but if one stays fixed on the words themselves, then what he stays fixed on will not be words as we mean them here. If this is so, then someone who forgets the images will be the one to get the ideas, and someone who forgets the words will be one to get the images. Getting the ideas is in fact a matter of forgetting the images, and getting the images is in fact a matter of forgetting the words."
Wang Bi, Commentary on the Zhouyi

 

[meng]

I seem to recall Wilhelm's model of fate including this idea of a fate already existing, and it being up to the individual to do what fate requires (matching seeds of fate) in order to realize ones potential. I still find that idea a bit far fetched and very Platonic.

 

[tuckchang]

Hi Pantherpanther,

The original meaning of 道 (tao) is the road which people walk on; it can be annotated as the doctrine when a religion is concerned, or the philosophy while a school is concerned, or the conduct code when ethics is concerned……
The tao of heaven can be understood the rule which is made by heaven, or according to which it operates. In the I Ching, every hexagram also has its tao, which is its philosophy or the conduct code to abide by or...... I say: the norm.

Due to the multiple meanings of a single character and the abnormal wording, very often an ancient Chinese writing has many different interpretations in the modern Chinese version. It goes without saying that it will create more argumentations when different language and culture are involved.

Ten Wings were originally meant for paraphrasing Yi, and Shuo Gua is the one which mainly discusses trigrams.
In my opinion, chapter 1 is just opening remarks and the topic of chapter 2 is to introduce the concept of three domains (it is expressed in the form of "after the writer had realized through the principle of life or whatever you like to call it").
Too much extended or extra thinking will lose the focus which we need to attain the true significance.

Regards
Tuck :bows:

 

[rosada]

This section deals with the elements of the individual hexagrams and their interrelation with the cosmic process. Just as in the heavens, evening and morning make a day through the alternation of dark and light (yin and yang), so the alternating even and uneven places in the hexagrams are respectively designated as dark and light.

The first, third, and fifth places are light; the second, fourth, and sixth are dark.

Furthermore, just as on earth all beings are formed from both firm and yielding elements, so the individual lines are firm, i.e., undivided, or yielding, i.e., divided.

In correspondence with these two basic powers in heaven and on earth, there exist in man the polarities of love and rectitude - love being related to the light principle and rectitude to the dark.

These human attributes, because they belong to the category of the subjective, not the objective, are not represented specifically in the places and lines of the hexagrams. The trinity of world principles, however, does come to expression in the hexagram as a whole and in its parts.

These three principles are differentiated as subject (man), object having form (earth), for man, and (content), heaven. The lowest place in the trigram is that of earth; the middle place belongs to man and the top place to heaven.

In correspondence with the principle of duality in the universe, the original three-line signs are doubled; thus in the hexagrams there are two places each for earth, the third and fourth are those of man, and the two at the top are those of heaven.

-Wilhelm

 

[fkegan]

King Wen and the Chou I Ching were a quantum leap to a new plane of understanding...

Hi All,

The insight and innovation of the Chou was to align their Worldly Empire to the natural rhythms of the seasons and the growing season that produced the harvest to support their population. This required a fundamental understanding of the Water Cycle and Weather patterns based upon the solar dynamics measured by the close observation of regular cycles of sunshine and seasonal variations in solar flux.

The three realms of this perspective develop from the interplay of Sunshine and Planet Earth Topography which establishes the World we live in; the Social efforts of agriculture that raise crops to harvest upon that Earth and the interaction with Heaven in terms of patterns and special occurrences to be understood and made positive and uplifting.

The combinations of three and two are various and manifold yielding hexagrams of two trigrams and of three line pairs. The great insight of the Chou Yi was to take the simple elegant symbolism of the firm and broken lines up from their origins as crude genital sex symbols and the only slightly less crude binary counters to the level of actual useful gestalt imagery capable of representing the subjective personal perception of the eternal flux of reality.

The Tao, a term used in ancient terms and now to speak about a fine avenue became the Trail of natural Flux. Both the path that has developed from the actions of others before us and the guidance we can find by tracking this trail for our continuing forward journey.

The words, languages, cultures and learned disputations are eternal and intriguing but they never noticed either Father Sun above us or our Mother Earth supporting us always and all ways. That is also an eternal constant in this world of dynamic Flux...

Frank

 

[rosada]

A fully rounded concept of the universe is expressed here, directly related to that expressed in the Doctrine of the Mean.

All the ideas set forth in this first chapter link it to the collection of essays on the meaning and structure of the hexagrams called the Appended Judgments, and are not connected with what follows here.
-Wilhelm

 

[pocossin]

A fully rounded concept of the universe is expressed here, directly related to that expressed in the Doctrine of the Mean.

A footnote leads to:

22. [The Great Learning presents the Confucian principles con-
cerning the education of the "superior man," based on the view that
innate within man are the qualities that when developed guide him
to a personal and a social ethic. The Doctrine of the Mean shows
that the "way of the superior man" leads to harmony between
heaven, man , and earth. Both of these works belong to the school
of thought led by Tzŭ-ssŭ, grandson of Confucius. They originally
formed part of the Li Chi, The Book of Rites. Under the titles Tai
Hsio and Kung Yung they can be found as bks. 39 and 28 in Legge's
translatin of the Book of Rites (The Sacred Books of the East,
XXVII: The Li Ki, Oxford, 1885).]
-Wilhelm, p.lix

Note that Wilhelm uses "heaven, man , and earth" although the traditional sequence is "heaven, earth, and man."

 

[fkegan]

The is the proper order of Earth, Man, and Heaven?

Note that Wilhelm uses "heaven, man , and earth" although the traditional sequence is "heaven, earth, and man."

And in the Chou I Ching with its King Wen Sequence, the order is Earth, Man, Heaven which is the observable concrete Reality of Nature.

Frank

 

[pocossin]

And in the Chou I Ching with its King Wen Sequence, the order is Earth, Man, Heaven which is the observable concrete Reality of Nature.

You mean in terms of Euclidean geometry? I find the sequence "heaven, man , and earth" unreal and think it is an impediment to effective divination -- an exaltation of the conscious mind. Best I've seen, this order isn't in the I Ching or King Wen Sequence, but it's a popular conception. Tuck used it in his presentation of line position in message #45.

 

[answeredquestions]

Talking about the creative heaven's having the number 3(I'm a little behind in the convo):

If you have ONE thing and you have ANOTHER thing. That's TWO. But that makes something else entirely when you have them BOTH. BOTH is it's own thing.

Everything has a polar opposite. 1 and 2.
But when you look at the big picture, the actual picture is of it's own accord. 3

 

[answeredquestions]

and the trigram's doubled (equaling 6) represents the micro/macrocosm philosophy that comes with each hexagram. As above, so below.

 

[rosada]

Outwitted

He drew a circle that shut me out -
Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout!
But Love and I had the wit to win -
We drew a circle that took him in.
-Edwin Markham

 

[pocossin]

and the trigram's doubled (equaling 6) represents the micro/macrocosm philosophy that comes with each hexagram. As above, so below.

And heaven and earth had six children. Family portrait:

☰ ☷ ☳ ☴ ☵ ☲ ☶ ☱

 

[pocossin]

He drew a circle that shut me out -
Heathen! Heretic! Thing to flout!
But Love and I had the wit to win -
We drew a circle that took him in.
-Anonymous

Wiki Quotes says it's from The Shoes of Happiness, and Other Poems (1913) by Edwin Markham.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edwin_Markham

 

[pantherpanther]

You mean in terms of Euclidean geometry? I find the sequence "heaven, man , and earth" unreal and think it is an impediment to effective divination -- an exaltation of the conscious mind. Best I've seen, this order isn't in the I Ching or King Wen Sequence, but it's a popular conception. Tuck used it in his presentation of line position in message #45.

The ancient sages were not limited in their perception to Heaven, Man and Earth. They had a higher vision, from "the sun behind the sun'" as the Sufis put it, that is , cosmically and from the center of the galaxy. They worked in the multiverse.

This is recognized, metaphysically, by Wang Bi in his commentaries on the I Ching and Tao Te Ching. The idea that the One underlies and unites all phenomena is stressed in Wang’s commentary on the I Ching in which he shows how the Tao as Non-Being is related to the world of Being. (The term xuanxe was derived from a line in the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching , according to which the Tao (Way) is xuan zhi you xuan (darker than dark).

This is indicated in the earliest texts - nearer to the time of Lao Tzu and Confucius - which show they were close in their views and more sophisticated than later versions.
For example, the Goudian texts: http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2001/02.22/07-ancientscript.html and (in Chinese) http://www.bamboosilk.org/

In regard to divination, the "three domains" of the hexagram that tuckchang mentions, that is Heaven, Earth and Man, are perhaps secondary in determining an omen.As I understand Wang Bi's view of divination, he sought to find one line in a hexagram that contained the li or principle behind all particular things and to discern the meaning from that one line. So the other five lines in the hexagram were secondary . The (eternal) Tao or Non-being was not to be defined in words or limited by number, time or space, although analogies pointing toward it were,for example, the valley, canyon, bowl, door, window, pitcher, and hub of a wheel. The ancient sages, who are present and real to some diviners, have the vision to see "the sun behind sun."
Diviners work in different ways, whether they are Oriental or Western.