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small taming leading to great taming - Which Way?

yinwithjim

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I have really been struggling with questions lately. I have looked into going back to school for a doctorate and have received replies back from 3 schools who encourage me to apply. So, I have those 3 schools to think about and at 59 years old I also have the thought of "what the heck am I doing" and "if i'm not going back to grad school, then what?" So based on some readings about questions I simply asked "Which Way?" and received 9.5 changing to 26

This reading confuses me - I'm not sure what to make of it. Small Taming to Great Taming? 9.5 (truth and presence that i have makes a harmonious relationship?) then 26 - going beyond my boundaries and nourish myself on new experience. You can go where more will be asked of you and your gifts will be of greater service; you can sustain values beyond mere survival.

Thus, with the question WHICH WAY? What do i make of this? Is it showing me success if I go off to graduate school?

Or am I missing this reading' meanings completely?

Help!
 
D

diamant

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This is an encouraging reading for applying. From small catch (9) to going for the big fish (26), so to speak.

Line 9.5 is somewhat strange. It shows there's a strange type of confidence (a tangled and crooked one, whatever that might mean). Someone has riches (abundance under a roof). But even if they're rich, they also use the resources of their neighbours. Maybe overall showing a rich neighbourhood.

This possibly describes which of the three universities will be the best for you. The richest one, and the one with the most affiliations/connections.
 

Matali

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Hello,
I agree with diamant, it's an auspicious line.
9.5 is a line that speaks of generosity and being rich of one's neighbor : do you have a good friend near one of the three universities ? Are you currently in a relationship with a sincere friend who could bring you a lot ? Another hypothesis : could you consider moving with your friend to study ?
 

dfreed

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I simply asked "Which Way?" and received 9.5 changing to 26

Hex. 9 reads, "Offering. Thick clouds, no rain, from our western suburbs."

9.5 is, "Sacrificing captives bound together. Rich, because of the neighbor(s)."

Richard Rutt titles this "farming / minor". I think this is about possibilities: a farmer watching the clouds, waiting for rain - which he hopes will come at just the right time, and in just the right amount .... But ahead of the rain there are decisions to be made: when to plow, which crops to plant, and when to sow their seeds ....

Hex. 9's lower trigram (3-line figure) is Heaven (also called Focus, and The Creative); the upper trigram is Wind, and with the 5th line moving, you have Mountain, Hex. 26's upper trigram.

I see this as representing you and your situation: you are considering different directions to go in, but perhaps not in the gentle, patient (wind-like) way you want - or need - to.

Line 9.5 suggests some ways you might go about this: that you 'untie' these ideas (which are holding you captive), and that you also stop - or slow down (mountain-like) - long enough to take the necessary time to consider each option / direction - weigh each 'Way' - on its own.

I think "Rich, because of the neighbors" is suggesting that you add 'close to home' as one of your selection criteria, Or ... that you ask someone close to you (and whose opinion you value) about these options. They don't need to decide for you, but their perspective can let you see things differently or more broadly, and you'll be 'richer' because of this.

I hope this is of use to you.
D.
 
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moss elk

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Rutt apparently wrote:
9.5 - Sacrificing captives bound together...

Luan2 is in 9.5 and 61.5
and it means bond/contract

The word used repeatedly throughout the text for
'prisoner' or 'captive' is huo4.


the important fundemental difference between the concepts is
luan2 is a willing heart bond, huo4 is non-consensual/forced.
 

redoleander

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9 > 26 might be suggesting you tackle "the small" first and let it organically lead to "the big". Or maybe even that what you gain via that work is what gives the opportunity for the big. I'm not sure what the options for "big" and "small" are in your situation but that could be something to consider. Maybe the ease and confidence of relationships will tip you off as to what is right? Not forcing, not pushing... if you had no set idea of the best/right outcome based on name, title, and so forth then what does your body, heart, and instinct tell you as you move along. 'Grad school' or 'X field' is abstract, in a sense, once you're there it's all about the actual relationships, mentorships, and so forth.
 

dfreed

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Rutt apparently wrote: 9.5 - Sacrificing captives bound together...

Luan2 is in 9.5 and 61.5 - and it means bond/contract

Thanks Moss Elk. He didn't 'apparently' write this; he did write it - those are the words in his translation.

The first three characters of this line are you3 / fu2 / luan2, and possible translations might be:
* you: holding, being, staying (together?)
* fu: captives (from Rutt)
* luan: bond, contract

I say "possible" and "might be" because some glosses / glossaries (such as Hatcher's) do not include the ancient or archaic meanings for all the characters. And there is also the issue of loan words, and the multiple meanings of some characters, and also that the meanings of some characters changed over time, and they change based on their order or placement, or because of which other characters they are found/used with.

For example: Luan3 can also mean (according to Hatcher): (to) be, being, having, exists, etc.
And Fu2 can mean: truthful, proof, confident, having faith, etc.

So one possible Way to go is: 'Look for proof of how to be with truth" :cool: (translation by dfreed, which has a very Richard Rutt-like rhyming to it!); and we also have Wilhelm's: "If you are sincere and loyally attached, You are rich in your neighbor".

So, given all these possible variations in word/character meanings and variations among translations, I went with the words and phrases of Rutt's translation (and the trigram meanings and associations) as best I understand them: I interpreted this as the 'captives' being possible options ('bonds, contracts'?) whom are being held all together; and that these can (need to) be separated out (dispersed by Wind) and that each can be given the necessary time (Mountain's stillness) to be considered on it's own, and not as part of a group of 'captives bound (bonded) together'.

Before I retired, I worked for a large county sewer agency. Whenever we received bids for construction or design projects, each bid had to be evaluated on it's own, but using the same criteria for each project - we could not look at them all together. I have the sense of something similar in this reading. And I also suggested that 'rich by way of the neighbors' might be one of these criteria or one approach to consider.

Best, D
 
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dfreed

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The word used repeatedly throughout the text for
'prisoner' or 'captive' is huo4.

Rutt says that the word for 'Captive' is Fu. From his Zhouyi, p220: Captives: the rediscovery in this century, largely from oracle bone and bronze inscriptions, of the meaning fu was [is] crucial in regaining the original meaning in the Zhouyi. [Whereas] Legge and Wilhelm following centuries of Confucian commentary, translated it as 'sincerity' ....

We often find it, in Rutt's translation - and maybe others, as part of the phrase "sacrificing captives". Harmen Mesker says of Fu:
"On bronze inscriptions we see 孚 (fu) mainly used as a verb: to capture people, chariots, or other materials during a battle .... In ancient China the support of the ancestors, spirits ... was essential", and "undertaking any action without their consent was doomed to fail."
One way to achieve this support was by sacrificing captives, prisoners of war, and if you received fu (a variant of) "bao it means you can proceed as planned, but if you do so you must acknowledge, respect and show gratitude to the forces that are aiding you in this."

So the King or Sovereign sacrificed captives both before and after a successful victory - and in capturing (and then sacrificing) captives, he showed success in battle, he showed respect and gratitude, and he demonstrated his authority and ability to continue to rule.

Best, D
 
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my_key

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So based on some readings about questions I simply asked "Which Way?" and received 9.5 changing to 26
9 means 'at first there are few'
26 means 'you find the right time'

Nuclear 38 meaning 'being on the outside'

Which Way? A big question that only you can answer it seems.
The deeper waves in this reading are holding you in a place where you feel on the outside: unsure, confused and not knowing. The process you are engaged in is drawing you towards mobilising your will and making a definite decision for yourself. All the questions you have asked have left you with pros and cons a veritable cornucopia of choice and information. Now your process asks for you to follow those questions deep within you in order to discover which choice to accept and which to reject (38).

Right now you can only make sense of a few things (9) however when the time is right you will know which way to go (26). Stay with the impatience, confusion and not knowing. It is the starting point of your knowing.

....or it may mean nothing at all like this for you.

Good Luck
 

dfreed

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But, she didn't get Wind over Water (59 / dispersion.) .... it is erroneous, a disservice even, to transfer that attribute from one combination of tigrams to any other. And dispersion is not a message or attribute in hex 9.

I never said he or she (yin-with-jim) got 59 (and you had me worried there for a moment that I had used either trigram Water or Hex. 59 in my interpretation!). I used associations I have with trigrams Wind, Heaven and Mountain (which are all a part of this reading) and included them - along with the text - in my interpretation. However, I did not include Hex. 59 at all, nor make my reading be only about the idea of 'dispersion' (which I see as a quality of Wind, and not just a hexagram name).

The line in question encourages a bond , (with an enriching partner) not a dispersion of anything.
This seems like one interpretation, and one you may want to use. That does not preclude other interpretations of this line or of this reading.

So, I'm not sure what point(s) you're making: Are you suggesting that how I interpreted this reading is wrong? Or that you don't understand it? Or that it's obviously different than how you would interpret it?

The practice of combining - and creatively working with - trigrams and the Yi's text goes back (at least) to a few centuries after the Yi's composition. And we see it in Wang Bi's Yijing version, as interpreted by Richard John Lynn; and also in Wilhelm's Book 3, where he often uses the trigrams (and nuclear trigrams) to explain the meaning of the text.

I am not doing the same thing as Wang Bi or Wilhelm (nor you), but it's completely fine to work with trigrams and text - even if it's in [very] creative ways. There are no 'rules of interpretation' that suggest otherwise - or at least none I know of, or would ever want to follow.

D
 
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Liselle

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Not sure about this at all, but about this -
I have looked into going back to school for a doctorate and have received replies back from 3 schools who encourage me to apply.
Encouraging you to apply isn't the same as accepting you if you do.

Moving from 9 to 26 is someone moving from Small Farming to Great Farming, a larger, well-established, going concern.

It might mean that what you should do right now as a next step is just hoe the rows in front of you (hexagram 9): fill out applications to all 3 schools and submit them. Then it'll go through whatever process it goes through, during which they'll think about their decision and you can continue to think about what actually enrolling would be like and what you might do with it. At the end you and a school will either form a mutual partnership or decide not to.
 

yinwithjim

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Not sure about this at all, but about this -

Encouraging you to apply isn't the same as accepting you if you do.

Moving from 9 to 26 is someone moving from Small Farming to Great Farming, a larger, well-established, going concern.

It might mean that what you should do right now as a next step is just hoe the rows in front of you (hexagram 9): fill out applications to all 3 schools and submit them. Then it'll go through whatever process it goes through, during which they'll think about their decision and you can continue to think about what actually enrolling would be like and what you might do with it. At the end you and a school will either form a mutual partnership or decide not to.
you are right in this - despite them being encouraging and even telling me that I would be competitive applicant this DOES NOT mean I have 3 firm offers - good point on this
 

yinwithjim

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This is an encouraging reading for applying. From small catch (9) to going for the big fish (26), so to speak.

Line 9.5 is somewhat strange. It shows there's a strange type of confidence (a tangled and crooked one, whatever that might mean). Someone has riches (abundance under a roof). But even if they're rich, they also use the resources of their neighbours. Maybe overall showing a rich neighbourhood.

This possibly describes which of the three universities will be the best for you. The richest one, and the one with the most affiliations/connections.
interesting ... two of the 3 are public schools with the third private - this opens the thought that what defines "riches" - actual money? prestige? or quality? or maybe even the riches of an unknown humble professor?
 

yinwithjim

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Hex. 9 reads, "Offering. Thick clouds, no rain, from our western suburbs."

9.5 is, "Sacrificing captives bound together. Rich, because of the neighbor(s)."

Richard Rutt titles this "farming / minor". I think this is about possibilities: a farmer watching the clouds, waiting for rain - which he hopes will come at just the right time, and in just the right amount .... But ahead of the rain there are decisions to be made: when to plow, which crops to plant, and when to sow their seeds ....

Hex. 9's lower trigram (3-line figure) is Heaven (also called Focus, and The Creative); the upper trigram is Wind, and with the 5th line moving, you have Mountain, Hex. 26's upper trigram.

I see this as representing you and your situation: you are considering different directions to go in, but perhaps not in the gentle, patient (wind-like) way you want - or need - to.

Line 9.5 suggests some ways you might go about this: that you 'untie' these ideas (which are holding you captive), and that you also stop - or slow down (mountain-like) - long enough to take the necessary time to consider each option / direction - weigh each 'Way' - on its own.

I think "Rich, because of the neighbors" is suggesting that you add 'close to home' as one of your selection criteria, Or ... that you ask someone close to you (and whose opinion you value) about these options. They don't need to decide for you, but their perspective can let you see things differently or more broadly, and you'll be 'richer' because of this.

I hope this is of use to you.
D.
great insight and your reply broadens my thoughts beyond the 3 schools because of course there is the option of NOT going to school - and the trusted friend - i tend to be the type of person who asks the opinions of others (especially who I trust) before making decisions - but as you say - my asking might be so someone else makes the decision for me - or - i tally up the votes and see which way to go - again - then still not my decision
 

yinwithjim

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Thanks Moss Elk. He didn't 'apparently' write this; he did write it - those are the words in his translation.

The first three characters of this line are you3 / fu2 / luan2, and possible translations might be:
* you: holding, being, staying (together?)
* fu: captives (from Rutt)
* luan: bond, contract

I say "possible" and "might be" because some glosses / glossaries (such as Hatcher's) do not include the ancient or archaic meanings for all the characters. And there is also the issue of loan words, and the multiple meanings of some characters, and also that the meanings of some characters changed over time, and they change based on their order or placement, or because of which other characters they are found/used with.

For example: Luan3 can also mean (according to Hatcher): (to) be, being, having, exists, etc.
And Fu2 can mean: truthful, proof, confident, having faith, etc.

So one possible Way to go is: 'Look for proof of how to be with truth" :cool: (translation by dfreed, which has a very Richard Rutt-like rhyming to it!); and we also have Wilhelm's: "If you are sincere and loyally attached, You are rich in your neighbor".

So, given all these possible variations in word/character meanings and variations among translations, I went with the words and phrases of Rutt's translation (and the trigram meanings and associations) as best I understand them: I interpreted this as the 'captives' being possible options ('bonds, contracts'?) whom are being held all together; and that these can (need to) be separated out (dispersed by Wind) and that each can be given the necessary time (Mountain's stillness) to be considered on it's own, and not as part of a group of 'captives bound (bonded) together'.

Before I retired, I worked for a large county sewer agency. Whenever we received bids for construction or design projects, each bid had to be evaluated on it's own, but using the same criteria for each project - we could not look at them all together. I have the sense of something similar in this reading. And I also suggested that 'rich by way of the neighbors' might be one of these criteria or one approach to consider.

Best, D
i really appreciate the detail of your post and will admit much of it was above my pay grade! what sticks out to me is your final paragraph - 1) evaluating 3 things with same criteria but not looking at them all together which I still have to think about - but more importantly - "rich by the way of the neighbors" - can you give me an example by way of explanation? I'm not understanding "rich by the way of the neighbors" - probably because other posts here referring to people I know that might be rich etc.
 

dfreed

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as you say - my asking might be so someone else makes the decision for me - or - i tally votes and see which way to go - again - still not my decision .... And - "rich by the way of the neighbors" - can you give me an example?
What I mean is that you may find it useful to share your options and what choices you're looking at, and you can then consider other's opinions and viewpoints (which does not means 'tallying' them up) - you are made "richer" by this - perhaps gaining insights from others - BUT you are still the decision-maker, if that's what you choose to be.

E.g. my neighbor Lu knows a lot about gardening and backyard wildlife. I will ask her for suggestions for landscaping, and I'll consider what she says, along with my own ideas, and ideas I've seen in books, etc. and I'll consider all this as part of my landscaping decision-making process.

Does that help explain it?
 
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dfreed

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admit much of it was above my pay grade!
Yes, we were getting quite deep in the weeds, but I don't feel it has much at all to do with your reading. I suggest you just ignore it if you want. It's about much bigger questions of how people do their interpretations.
 
D

diamant

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this opens the thought that what defines "riches" - actual money? prestige? or quality? or maybe even the riches of an unknown humble professor?

富 rich, 'roof covering abundant reserves', abundant, ample, wealthy
So more like actual money and assets, perhaps even more buildings.
If this was about prestige, or quality, or a humble wise professor, you would have got different lines.
 

dfreed

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If this was about prestige, or quality, or a humble wise professor, you would have got different lines.

I assume you're referring to the line: 9.5 "Sacrificing captives bound together. Rich, because of the neighbor(s)." (Rutt)

You may be right, but the Yi most often 'speaks' to us via imagery and metaphor; therefore, I think it may likely be about prestige, or quality, or a humble wise professor; OR it may be about money and assets, perhaps even more buildings; OR it may be about advice or feedback from one's 'neighbors' which en-riches us - and helps us to make our own decisions. And maybe it's whatever yinwithjim feels best fits his situation and what he needs.
 

Trojina

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I have really been struggling with questions lately. I have looked into going back to school for a doctorate and have received replies back from 3 schools who encourage me to apply. So, I have those 3 schools to think about and at 59 years old I also have the thought of "what the heck am I doing" and "if i'm not going back to grad school, then what?" So based on some readings about questions I simply asked "Which Way?" and received 9.5 changing to 26

This reading confuses me - I'm not sure what to make of it. Small Taming to Great Taming? 9.5 (truth and presence that i have makes a harmonious relationship?) then 26 - going beyond my boundaries and nourish myself on new experience. You can go where more will be asked of you and your gifts will be of greater service; you can sustain values beyond mere survival.

Thus, with the question WHICH WAY? What do i make of this? Is it showing me success if I go off to graduate school?

Or am I missing this reading' meanings completely?

Help!


So the situation is you applied to 3 universities and all of them have encouraged you to apply ? Great.

You then asked 'which way?' and got 9.5>26



'Which way?' must have made sense to you when you asked the question but it's very vague to anyone trying to interpret. I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking which one to go for ? Or are you asking if you should do it at all.

Starting with what the line says, what Yi says

'With truth and confidence, hence bound together.
Rich in your neighbour.'

So this is a line of generosity towards you from others. And the generosity is rooted in close, meaningful or affectionate ties. How does this connect to your question? Is someone helping you with the money?

Very often this line is very tangible in terms of what is given. I myself had it where someone offered to pay for a holiday for me and other similar things. Hexagram 9, waiting for the time when there's enough to go on to make a real move forward. Maybe things held you back before or even now, such as money or maybe some other factor ? For example if you need to move away is someone offering a place to stay or something like that.

Why would Yi start talking to you about someone else's kindness and generosity when you ask 'which way?' Only you know.


I mean I've read your post a few times and it's not clear to me when you ask 'which way?' how general the question is but it's too general I feel for me to be very specific in interpretation.
 

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