status of relationship: moving on (??)

[elizabeth]

I have a relationship with a man in another country. We met last summer and have been in very very close touch since. We've disussed marriage/children and a future together numerous times. In the course of last fall I planned to go back to his country (my work is mobile and allows me this) and will fly there in March.

Recently, in discussing the details of said plans it seems he is unwilling to compromise on several key issues. We have global questions of finance and geography and while I keep proposing other solutions (and what I consider compromises) he seems to think I should move there and stay there. For a number of reasons I can't do that as easily as he thinks. It has us at a...stalemate of sorts.

I have been tormented about whether to just cut it off now, see how it goes with him in person (which does not erase or solve any of the big ticket questions) or go, see him and plan to end it this summer. I wanted to know what the Yi would say. I asked:

What if I end it with V this summer?Cauldren 50.4 > 18 Corruption
the caldron with its feet broken; and its contents, designed for the ruler's use overturned and split. Its subject will be made to blush for shame. There will be evil.

--> Is that evil meaning "bad idea dont do it"? Or that the evil is currently there, already existing??

What if I end it with V now? Corruption 18.6 > 46 Pushing thruThe sixth line, undivided, show us one who does not serve either king or feudal lord, but in a lofty spirit prefers to attend to his own affairs. = He views indulgently the troubles caused by his father: if he go forward, he will not succeed.
I read in the forum online that someone else said: "18.6 is about someone who is not concerned with the opinions of others, who isn't or shouldn't be setting out to please others but to serve their own goals. 18.6 does its own thing ... The marriage/relationship is sick (hexagram 18), and line 6 suggests near its end. Hexagram 46 mentions departure."

Does this mean separation would be a bad thing and I should stick it out? the "will not succeed" suggests that to me but hte other interpretations suggest the opposite.

I am torn.
I do not WANT to end it. I want it to work out...

 

[precision grace]

Hm. I'm not at all sure really but what struck me instantly is that the first question you state you are torn over is whether to end it with him right now. That to me suggests that you are also unwilling to consider accepting what he wants from your relationship (i.e. moving there and staying there)

Also, I think your answers suggest that if you go over there and end it in person with him, you will be made to blush for shame, i.e. maybe that's not a good idea

and second answer, to me at least, suggests that ending things with him now would lead to progress. What kind of progress I don't know. Perhaps 18.6 relates to him and the fact he is only interested in having things his own way, or it could be talking about you in the same context. Maybe you are both interested in only having this relationship if it would work the way you want and it seems you two may want two different things. 18.6 could also be seen as a line advising you against allowing others to influence you in such a way as to compromise the values that are truly important to you. Again. Are your values at odds?

Finally the questions you asked are about breaking up. I would suggest asking follow up questions about the trying to work things out/trying to make things work and how that might pan out.

 

[dragona]

hi, I think you are asking the wrong questions - about breaking up while you don`t want to do it.
2nd cast, hex 18, Nine at the top means:
He does not serve kings and princes,
Sets himself higher goals.
says it would be selfish to do it now, pushing upwards leads to clearing up the situation anyway...
it may be better to ask what would compromise bring and if it would be a winning solution for both of you as breaking up would not make you happy, it seems.

 

[riurik]

I do not WANT to end it. I want it to work out...

Then, why did you ask only about ending?

If this is what you want, to work it out, why don't you ask how to achieve that? or if you would be able to work it out?

 

[Lavalamp]

"What if I end it with V this summer?"
50.4 The weight of the relationship will have upended it, and you will probably feel humiliated for what you say or do. Maybe related to trying to deal with hurt pride with a rebound relationship.
> 18 Corruption You'll need a bit of time to recover from the damage.

"What if I end it with V now?"
Corruption 18.6 Your concern is attending your own needs and development, not serving your partner's needs or what the two of you are as a unit.
> 46 Pushing thru
There is little in the way of your moving on but to decide to do so and actually do it. The support of friends and advice of the experienced will be of help. It will take some time, but you will progress steadily.

 

[elizabeth]

Thanks everyone for your replies. In order:

Precision grace:

Maybe you are both interested in only having this relationship if it would work the way you want and it seems you two may want two different things. 18.6 could also be seen as a line advising you against allowing others to influence you in such a way as to compromise the values that are truly important to you. Again. Are your values at odds? //
Finally the questions you asked are about breaking up. I would suggest asking follow up questions about the trying to work things out/trying to make things work and how that might pan out.

Our values are at odds in that he lives in a third world country and I'm in the USA. I am not wealthy -- i'm lower middle class but from his standpoint he is looking "up" at me. He has the chance to move here and improve his life, and our life together, but he is unwilling to move for a number of reasons. When I offered to go there, I said i would not be able to live under certain conditions, but i offerred to rent an apartment where we both could live. He said he wasnt willing to agree to that. So either i liv with him there on his terms or no deal. As it is I am making large sacrifices to be with him. I do not see him making any compromises himself. So I am wondering if i should end it now (even tho i do not want to) bc i cannot see how the big issues (which are financial and geography at this point) can be overcome. In my view they cannot change for the better without motion from him. And he is not (currently) moving.

So Riurik, i did not ask about compromises bc I have already discussed that with him. He wants to "wait and see". I see the pattern now and I do not have time to waste if this is going nowhere (as it seems to be). As my friends have pointed out i've jumped thru hoops for him but an equal effort is not coming from his side. Yet. But I am going to ask that question to the Yi and see what it advises me. Will post shortly.

Lavalamp the second reading (your interpretation) seems to suggest that if i decide to take action and painfully end it, that doing so will help me move on rather than just worrying about how painful it will feel if i do end it.... I am not sure why the first reading suggests humiliation... as I am not sure i have (or would have) done in something wrong this case?

*sigh* I am still torn...

 

[elizabeth]

Not sure this is a good form for the question, but i asked "Will i be able to work it out with V?" I got 13.1.5> 56 Interestingly: the Fellowship with Men, and Travelling Hexagrams.

line 1: "the representative of the union of men just issuing from his gate. There will be no error." Also "The beginning of union among many different people should occur in the open, where all can see and be seen, and all are on equal footing. They start out as friends, with high hopes and are agreed upon their aims."

Just a note: we're not on equal footing. By standards in my country I'm struggling financially; compared to him I have it very well, but we come from very different worlds/backgrounds. I dont know if the Yi here intimates that this is the problem (ie "no" we wont work it out bc we, in this scenario, are not on "equal footing") or something else.

line 5: the representative of the union of men first wails and cries out, and then laughs. His great host conquers, and he and the subject of the second line meet together.
[the representative of the union of men here described arises from his central position and straightforward character. The meeting secured by his great host intimates that the opponents of it have been overcome. ]

Clearer (for line 5), in my case, is another interpretation: Any association will begin with troubles that may cause grief, but when these have been resolved the companions will find happiness. The troubles endured and overcome by others will serve as example, and the help and understanding will bring them together in due course.

OK that part sounds positive. (!)

But, sadly, for hext 56 this line struck me, as I am in this case literally the traveller, flying in March to his country for 5 months (unless i change plans and shorten the trip). The line "To be the traveller means you are not at home here – you know you don’t belong. Also, "you have a strong personal direction: wherever you find yourself for now, you know it does not define you." Does it mean i dont belong (staying) with him??

And: "cannot expect to change your surroundings – and nor should your surroundings change you: it is good to be constant to your own way as you travel." This means (to me) I should not be accepted to change my entire way of life to be with him (which is his expectation) without compromise on his part. That is what I am fighting against now...i dont know what the Yi is saying (is it saying i'm right in this case?) Or it is saying just go on the trip and go meet him. The message is vague here but perhaps my question was not correctly asked either. I'm beyond underslept right now for one.

 

[Lavalamp]

I'd bet $5 he has a wife.

 

[elizabeth]

No he's divorced and she is milking him for all he is worth. They have a 4 yr old son who lives with *her* parents. He is only allowed to see if he phones ahead of time, and once per week (or more like 2 times per month). She lives separately and almost never sees the child but demanded alimony starting this year, which she puts in to her pocket. The child doesnt get a dime of that money. She earns more than he does.

Finances are an issue bc what is left over is not enough for us to live on...and so we have been brainstorming how to have it work. If he were to move to the USA he would have more... but that requires separation from his son, which he'd be willing to do when son is a little bit older. (I offerred to bring the son here; the ex wife wont allow that). Me living there temporarily not an option bc he lives with his aunt and no kitchen is big enough for two women, esp since i'm the "outsider", an American, and so forth. Believe me we have covered all options... It just seems an impasse and what to me seems an obvious solution he doesnt want to do; and what to him seems an obvious solution is a level to which i have lived in the past out of necessity and do not choose to return to, for i have worked to hard to get out of it. Additionally, we are discussing creating a family so this is not about "what is the bare bones minimum of poverty that is acceptable" (as he sees it) for me to compromise and give up everything to step down into. It is how can we live and provide a safe and healthy standard of living in which to raise a family (as i see it). Part of that would entail improving *his* living conditions but i'm sensing he doesnt want to or doesnt believe it's possible bc he never tried.

 

[riurik]

There is a potential for you to work this out, if you choose to. It wont be easy, though. You need to be very clear to yourself if you choose to follow that path. Otherwise, I'd be better to finish this now (18.6) than in summer (50.4).

 

[rosada]

Interesting answer to your question about will you be able to work things out with v. It reads to me as if the I Ching is suggesting that working things out does not necessarily mean committing to a life together. 13.1 sounds like you are being advised that you are not bound to him, you are still free to come or go as you please (and perhaps it is important to maintain this stance in order to have the power to influence change) and then 13.5 suggests you can be together and even get passed the issues but then 56 sounds like you will move on. So perhaps "working it out" means rethinking what the potential of this relationship is. I think you're being advised not to get so close that to disentangle yourself would require a 50.4 break up. Rather, maintain your 13.1 stance. Go to see him as you would go to see a friend, have a wonderful time, 13.5, and then 56. Travel on.

Rosada

 

[elizabeth]

thanks Ruirik. It is already tough. The problem is that I cannot see any solution. I mean it is truly as if we need a miracle or some unexpected "poof" of things to happen to solve these problems. On their own I cannot do anything about them...

 

[elizabeth]

OP, Rosada, I just saw your post.

Interesting answer to your question about will you be able to work things out with v. It reads to me as if the I Ching is suggesting that working things out does not necessarily mean committing to a life together. 13.1 sounds like you are being advised that you are not bound to him, you are still free to come or go as you please (and perhaps it is important to maintain this stance in order to have the power to influence change) and then 13.5 suggests you can be together and even get passed the issues but then 56 sounds like you will move on. So perhaps "working it out" means rethinking what the potential of this relationship is. I think you're being advised not to get so close that to disentangle yourself would require a 50.4 break up. Rather, maintain your 13.1 stance. Go to see him as you would go to see a friend, have a wonderful time, 13.5, and then 56. Travel on.

Well the issues are intertwined, at least in my head/heart, because I want a family (husband/child) and he also wants a family. And unfortunately time is not on my side at this point as I turn 38 in 2 weeks. We were going to try living together on this trip. And he would come here in the autumn. But to do that (living together even part time) is to get "so close that to disentangle myself" would require the breakup. That is why I'm assessing this now... If the "travel on" is the ultimate advice then that suggests moving on. I hate to use the term "waste time" here but I'm being forced to be practical about this for a number of reasons.

But the idea you point out -- remembering i'm not bound to him at this point -- has occurred to me before and it seems it is my only "bargaining point" (i hate that language too, but for lack of a better term). It's the only way i can influence change and show him that certain things are not acceptable/ certain things need to happen in order for this to succeed and be smooth for our future together. (One of which is him learning English; not for me but for his future work opportunities, which will not change if we stay in his country, and which, unchanged, will not enable us to have a life together that is workable; and again I cannot do that for him, he must do it for himself). I feel now, at such a great distance, separated enough that I can think this through logically (and logic is telling me I should not stay in it. Who tries to start a relationship and family when there is no financial backing at all?? No one in their right mind...) But love is not logical. So what is the *right* thing to do??

But I know once I get there that romance and hormones and the rest of it are going to heavily influence my thinking. Then I get back to the "if this is going to end in August i would rather it end NOW".... and I'm confused again :-S

 

[elizabeth]

Just wanted to add: "getting past the issues"-- the problem is that in order for this to work there must be solutions *to* those issues. ie the issues are what are preventing us from being together, bc they are serious and big ones.

Everything I have looked at or considered, he wont do (ie he wont let me pay 100% rent to live in decent conditions for us, and even if i did that, i'm still making huge sacrifices by leaving *my* country to step down and live in his...its very complicated). And his suggestions are basically the status quo: he keeps his country/life/income/job as it is, and i change everything. That is his suggestion and I've told him why I cant do that. I asked him to perfect his English and to come visit here, ie see what he is missing before he vetoes it blindly. He planned a visit but its not clear if he will actually make it; and then if he *does* come and fly out and visit and see what life is like here, as a precursor to a potential move, there are a list of reasons why he may not make the actual move later on anyway. So I feel i'm hedging bets against the "possibility" that a narrow set of criteria will occur in order that things can "work out". Bc if those things do not occur then we won't work out, at least not as I can see it...

 

[elizabeth]

Because I feel this is so hopeless (and I notice I only turn to the Yi when I hit these walls...hmm...) I asked a final question: What can I do to improve the situation? I dont know if the Yi is answering me anymore but the result was:
31.3.4.5>2 Mutual influence and then Earth/Reception

Line 3: He moves his thighs: he still does not want to rest in his place. His will is set on following others: what he holds in his grasp is low. // Here is a man who follows the dictates of his heart or of his animal instincts rather than his head.
I'm aiming too low to be with this man (??)

line 4: Firm correctness will lead to good fortune, and prevent all occasion for repentance: there has not yet been any harm from a selfish wish to influence. He is unsettled in his movements: his power to influence is not yet either brilliant or great.//The influence to move comes from within. There are no regrets at having delayed until the moment is right. But the man who acts without due consideration will find it difficult to persuade more than his nearest companions to follow him.

i have to think it through before acting or the actions/words will come to nothing
I can't change the situation yet from my standpoint/i have no leverage (??)

"When the quiet power of a man’s own character is at work, the effects produced are right. All those who are receptive to the vibrations of such a spirit will then be influenced. Influence over others should not express itself as a conscious and willed effort to manipulate them. Through practicing such conscious incitement, one becomes wrought up and is exhausted by the eternal stress and strain. Moreover, the effects produced are then limited to those on whom one’s thoughts are consciously fixed." This means if I'm tryign to change him or manipulate him it wont work but if I quietly show him my truth he would consider it (?) I certainly agree with the stress and strain bit!

LIne 5: He tries to move the flesh along the spine above the heart: his aim is trivial. // Resolution shows itself in a stiffening of the back & neck. But though the man experience no remorse at this strengthening of his resolve, he may still find it difficult to persuade others.
Even if i give an ultimatum, it's not going to results in any changes (??)
also: "What takes place in the depths of one’s being, in the unconscious, can neither be called forth nor prevented by a conscious mind. it is true that if we cannot be influenced ourselves, we cannot influence the outside world."
I need to bend if I expect him to bend? (Far as I can see I have already bent a great deal...I am the first to bend...)

I found this on the forum from another reading that resulted in the same hexagrams: "I think it may be saying something's attracting you, giving you the impulse to go after it, but that impulse is a little erratic and may not run very deep? Line 3 speaks of an attraction thats somewhat automatic, that you'd be better to step back from and evaluate. Line 4 can mean your wishes have been so changeable, no one can keep up with you, or take you seriously (no offence meant). Line 5 may mean, yes your're feeling this impulse to action, but ultimately its not going to have much impact - its not running deep enough."

I can take that two ways: my impulse to end this isnt strong enough so i wont end it...or that my impulse to have it work out or to be with him isnt strong enough so it wont work out. (?)

 

[Lavalamp]

"What can I do to improve the situation?"

31.3.
Ask yourself - considering the actual situation and how it makes you feel, is this really what you want, what you choose?

31.4
You have a good heart and are a worthy person. Ask yourself, is this person going to be there when you need someone to be there for you, without you having to play games to get support?

31.5
Your desires here originate in your deepest, truest nature, so much so that no rigidity in yourself can repress them from manifesting in your own life. So you cannot settle for less, and you should not feel bad about that. You must be true to your own inner nature.

2 Earth/Reception
The ball in in his court. You can help him, but it's on him to make some decisions, take some action, solve what is really his responsibility.

 

[elizabeth]

Thanks Lavalamp. Your interpretation is the way I've been feeling -- that it's up to him to take action at this point, I can only do so much.

31.5 is difficult because I dont think he is hearing me, or knows how important some of this is. He seems happy to take a "lets wait and see" attitude to much of it...and for me that's not good enough given the huge hurdles we face. There have to be plans and we must take action, get the ball rolling, bc the things we need to do are going to take many months. I dont nkow that he feels or sees that; or if he does, fear stops him.

He is sick now, and it's his birthday in two days, so I feel i shouldnt discuss anything now. But when I do, i want to say that part about not having to play games to get support... I think that is key.

 

[Lavalamp]

My personal advice would not be to ask him if he's going to be there for you. it would be to ask yourself what you really are looking for, what you really need, no matter who it is. Then give the guy a heads up of what this is, that you need this to be true to yourself, so... I care about you, but is this going to work between us?

You might want to give this a set, reasonable time period to work itself out, so he can process his own wants and needs, what changes he can handle. Maybe it will work, maybe not, but you both need to be honest with yourselves and each other. Then if it doesn't work out it can be with understanding and without recriminations.

Good luck.

 

[elizabeth]

I like that idea -- "this is what I need, FYI, to be true to myself, and i know i wont be happy if those elements aren't present." Not asking him to do anything just informing him that if those things dont happen, this isnt going to work.

If only I could say that *now*...(it weighs on me0. I feel i should be kind enough to wait until he's not sick :-(

 

[dragona]

May I just say, reading this (from your side tho) that i have a friend abroad who is working very hard on this "international" relationship and even though they both come from rich countries, have good jobs, to me it seems that one side is always trying a bit too much, sacrifysing for the good of the relationship and it also seems to me that another side is taking very much an advantage out of it. This may lead to exhaustion and then it is up to more "pampered" party to actualy decide to level it down.
If your man does not make steps toward defining your future soon, chances are this situation will not improve to your benefit. Mind you, just because he is not talking about it, does not mean heis not thinking it through. But i really like what Lavalamp statedand I am prepared to take his advice as well.
I hope I am not being too much here, just that it is univen and you do struggle over it so. I hope he appritiates it. Good luck, d.

 

[elizabeth]

Hi Dragon,
No that's not too much at all. It always helps to hear how other people with similar situations handle it.
I do have to say I envy your firends though. Not that it is easy when one party is taking the other for granted, sitting back and being pampered. But if they both have the funds to be together, to live together, it is much less of an issue.

In my case, if we were both well-employed this would not even be an issue because the very crux of the problem is finance, and in order to improve finances, things must be done: to have an apartment for both of us, he needs to earn more money (since he wont accept me paying for full price of rent). Or he needs to compromise (and let me pay rent...which i dont really want to do anyway). Likewise, even for immigration, the paperwork (i was surprised to learn) is now very expensive. The visas and so forth. It's not cheap and if you're not earning a lot of money it means you can spend several months' of salary just on paperwork.

But what you wrote struck a chord too -- I think he is taking much of what i've done for granted. Happy to sit back and let me come to him. INitially i was OK with it but as I watch a pattern develop i do not like it; its not fair.

 

[dragona]

That is what I say to my friend - but he says it is like a cattle finding a lid, one willing to sacrifice for love, another willing to accept it gracefully. Ultimately, if you are both definitive about making it out together, it should be of no consequence for both who is contributing with what because both making sacrifice here -changing countries, languages, accepting money, cultural changes..are big ones on both sides and should not be measured or judged upon no one but yourselves. Reward of living happy life together looks promosing enough. But without compromises from both sides, I feel there may be some bitterness left to feel in the back of the mind.

 

[elizabeth]

Yes, that is exactly it. I do not mind -- not at all -- to make all these compromises. But if I am the only one compromising and he is doing *zero*...then I being to resent him and yes, the bitterness (and even a sense of betrayal) sets in.

 

[dragona]

That is why he needs to come to understand it also. I cannot believe that he is that nwill ing to meet you half way on some of those issues. These kind of relationships happen very often lately, IMO and I was even hoping for something of a sort, thinking this would give me a push in life. But it is very very hard and trying. So I kinda get your situation. But you can only do so much. He has to show you that he wants this as much as you do. Trying to keep an pen mind an your heart can be very trying and giving it a chance is something you probabily feel a necessity in order to soothe your mind also. Cheering for you, hoping for the best, d.

 

[elizabeth]

He could have no idea I feel this way... But I have hinted at it before and nothing changed. I have not addressed it outright yet though, bc I only realized what was going on about 10 days ago, after talking to someone who said "look at his actions not his words". I thought, good point.

Thanks for your well wishes Dragona. I wish you the best too. Thanks for your input, it does help

 

[elizabeth]

Just a post-script. We ended up having part of this talk tonight> I did not prompt it and in fact decided not to say anything til he felt better. Instead I wanted to try to encourage him about learning English; i had sent some self study sites, some of which were kind of neat. He said he needed a teacher to do it, not on his own, and hat he couldnt do it bc he didnt believe in himself. I then said well there was no reason not to, he is talented and can do it.

He also said that he needs a "goal" bc one doesnt learn a language "just because." The goal, he added, in this case would be to move to the USA. And he said we had not decided that he would move to the USA. I said I already understood that from our last conversation... Then I said I didnt think him learning English would hurt his career as it is, even if he didnt leave his country, it always opens new doors. He said him moving would be 100% compromise for him and nothing for me. I said thats not true, bc i'd have to support him while he adjusts here - so it is compromise for me too. I wanted to add that me moving to live in a third world country with him and his relatives in a tiny smokey room is a huger compromise for me than him moving here--but i didnt say that.

And then i threw in my piece -- that it has seemed to me a one-sided compromise so far and i'm not ok in a relationship where i'm the only one making efforts bc it is not fair to me. He said he understood that. But we did not end on a good note.

I cant see his point of view. I was focusing on English bc studying it online is *Free* -- he doesnt have to change jobs or earn more money or even leave his house. And that is a step to show me he's invested in us. But he is so adverse to it... And I wasnt pressuring, I was excited about the possibilities and those websites. I honestly dont know what i am doing wrong. But i'm heartbroken.

 

[Lavalamp]

You're doing nothing wrong. he has an existing family he cannot support if he moves to the US. And the life you and your children would live, the opportunities available educationally and careerwise if you moved there is not what you want. Has he even talked about having kids with you?

I think if he hasn't/isn't stepping up bigtime in the family commitment area your question is answered without further deliberations. You cannot carry him on that. You only have one life, and if you want a family and he doesn't, c'est la vie. There are plenty of fish in the sea.

 

[elizabeth]

Yes that is just the thing - this is the first man in my life who has spoken of marriage, commitment and children. Children with me. Specifically he wants a daughter bc he has had 2 sons. He said that early on, before I ever opened my mouth on that subject...

The only thing i disagree with is that he cant support his son if he moves to the US. On the contrary he'd have more money that he could either send to him or put aside for him, and money to fly him here or to go there. We spoke of that early on and initially he said he would *(WOULD)* move to the US but only in 2 years. Now that has changed to "never", in not so many words. I said, and i stand by it, i'm not asking him to leave his son, he can bring the son here with him... He said thats not possible.

I dont see why not study English anyway, to show me his seriousness? why not come here to visit and THEN say he hates it and doesnt want to move? But why inertia?

I dont know what to do now.

 

[dragona]

Hello back,
I have the feeling that this man comes from a very traditional upbringing - his refusal to apply in english to me looks spiteful. he must be a proud man and possibly thorn in this situation.
Don`t blame yourself. Can you just calmly ask him what he wants you to do? What would make him happy? Then you look into it and see what would make YOU happy.
If you cannot find the middle ground, perhaps you are not ready to commit to that.
Take care, d

 

[elizabeth]

I don't know about spite, but it seems (to put it bluntly) stubborn and small minded. I know there are *many* faults in my country but at least in terms of finance and standard of living, he would automatically step upwards.
I understand also that the devil you know is better than the one you dont, and maybe this is fear. But why not learn English? Then if he decides not to live here, fine. He hasnt lost anything, but he's gained knowledge. That is how *I* look at it.


I know what he wants me to do. He wants me to move there and live with him and stay there. And fly back and forth> So that he doesnt have to leave or change or improve anything, including learning another language. He lives with his elderly aunt way outside of town. There is nothing around him. I lived in that country for 5 years before, but I lived in city center. He thinks it is easy for me since I nkow the language, but my standard of living drops to lower than the bare basics when I am there (ie hot water becomes a luxury). I was raised and lived the rest of my life in 1st world countries (cities in fact). Maybe because he's a man, "camping out" is not a big deal. It is to me.