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Steps of Yu (new material from Stephen Karcher)

hilary

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In response to questions, Stephen's written out some more detailed explanations of how the hexagram pairs might work in divination. Very useful supplement to Total I Ching!

I've uploaded this as a separate page:

The Steps of Yu

This link opens in a new window so you can post comments and questions here as you read...

Kevin's 'Maps of Change' thread has diagrams of the hexagram pairs (thanks, Kevin
)
 

hilary

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A comment to start off with... I don't 'get' the difference between 'canonical' and 'mythological' exchanges. How is a Tiger's Mouth or a Dragon more of a 'basic category of thought and experience' and less of an 'image' than (picking at random) an elephant, or the ignorance of newborn things?

Maybe I need to start with something a little more basic, like 'What is structural anthropology?'
 

heylise

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What I can make of it, is:

Mythological is a 'base' image, an archetype, and it is not possible to give it one single name. Every name will only cover part of it. Like God covers only part of god. That is why god has no 'speakable' name.

But when you go down one level, god suddenly has many names. Allah is also god, but with all the attributes of Allah. Our God has our attributes. They are canonical, totemic. He can be painted as sitting on a cloud (loftiness or so), with a beard of wisdom, and so on. Dangerous level, many people think that a god with a different face is a different god, and a threat for their own God. On this level, people also start to add good and bad, which is completely alien to archetypes.

Zen stays on the archetypal level, not giving god a name, not choosing between good or bad.

On the archetypal level, a hexagram is neither good nor bad. It indicates a 'time', but not a good or bad time, only the possibilities of a time. Today I got 38 from the Yi, and it made me smile, because it was a very comforting answer to my question. It told me not to worry, if I aligned with this 38, I would be alright.
If I had asked a 'canonical' question, I would not have liked 38.

Not yet halfway Karcher's text, but what I read so far, is real good.

LiSe
 

hilary

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Stephen seems to have password-delivery problems keeping him from posting here himself. So while someone conducts a ritual to appease the email server gods (expect he will know a good one), here is what he wanted to post:


Structural Anthropology
and ?primitive? Systems of Classification


By ?structural anthropology? I mean the primarily French tradition that combines linguistics, sociology, psychoanalysis and a sense of ?basic structures of thought? in non-technological societies to examine how language helps to create culture and identity. People like Marcel Mauss, Emile Durkheim, my favourite sinologist Marcel Granet, and Claude Levi-Strass would be examples. Often highly technical, this tradition nevertheless gives us some stunning insights into the ?primitive? levels of our thought and culture, particularly when combined with Jung?s sense of how the archetypes or ?gods? work on us through our complexes and how what we see as ?primitive thought? is actually a model of our own deep imagination that we experience every night in our dreams.

I think LiSe has a real sense of the two kinds of classification but, at least according to the sources, has simply reversed their significance. Probably my fault for using the words ?canonical? and ?mythological? to describe them, We react negatively to words like canonical or categorical, wanting to get out of them or limit them, whereas we tend to be attracted to words like myth and mythological.

The thinkers I mention tend to differentiate between three kinds of ?classification? or methods of exchange of information in primitive cultures. All these operate with words, moving words around in different nets of association, just like the hexagrams in Yijing serve to display and organize words that carry the impact of the omens or xiang/symbols.

There are three kinds of ?word links:?

1) A link or ?magical participation? between the word as symbol and the ?concept? it represents. ?This is the source of the primitive?s experience of a mystic reality ?? in which every ?visible entity? is doubled by an ?invisible entity ? like a shadow or soul.? For me, this is the world of the direct exchange of the primary categories, the primary or symmetrical pairs.

2) A link ?between the spiritual entity and the physical entity.? This, to me, is the world of ?intense shamanic and ritual activity.?

3) The ?associative link between ideas? or ?correlative categories? that, among other things, make up the foundation of the systems of association that were abstracted and developed in the Han Dynasty.

To me, these last two describe what I call ?mythological association? and its relation to social categories. They are the world of the ?diagonal? crossline omens. The first link might be called ?totemic? or categorical in the most fundamental sense of the word ? the categories through which we ?think? at the deepest level. The ?zones of radical transformation?- structural irregularities in the generation of Relating Pairs across the matrix of a Rotational Pair (as at 13:14 centers) ? serve as ?hyperlinks? to these primary sites.

So why are figures 1 and 2, 27 and 28, 29 and 30, 61 and 62 so ?basic?? First off, of course, is their radical structural difference and their pivotal positions in the matrix at beginning, middle and end. This, in the mind of the bricoleurs or matrix makers would have great significance. They are where and what they are for a reason. I feel they are the great ?engines? of Change that in some way power and project the matrix and, similarly, places in our psyche that act as sites of transformation in the deepest sense, recharging experience with their primal energy.

Now, every culture has a set of these categories at a very deep level. If you think about the archaic culture that gave birth to Change, seems to me these images can very well sum up a basic dynamic: the Two Powers that constitute all things (1 and 2); the act of sacrifice and eating away corruption that enables an individual to truly emerge and begin to manifest his/her ?ming? or destiny (27 and 28, presided over by the Tiger); the inner axis of the Two Powers as Fire and Water (29 and 30) enabled by this emergence; and the opening of the heart that allows the experience of a life fully lived to be passed on to the next generation through ?magical words? that, somehow, affect and carry the ?cultural DNA,? as it were, to a new generation (61 and 62) as it passes through the River of Life and Death, the Burning Water (63 and 64) to begin the cycle again (1 and 2). So when these figures come up in response to a question, we know that the matter at hand has something of this deep significance and that ?change in the heart? is operating on these levels. It is not that the others are ?lesser? - indeed to use LiSe?s example, for me figure 38 is of great importance to us now as ?the shaman of the shadow (Wugui) who encounters the ?ghosts that haunt the dwelling.? It is just that they operate differently, tending to be more ?tactical? and personalizing. They ?fix? (heng) the power of the great engines of Change into our lives.

I hope this helps to clarify some of the thinking. Again, these are suggestions, not prescriptions, and I hope that they might help us speculate further in what are, to me, very interesting and important directions.

Best wishes

Stephen
 

chrislofting

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> By Hilary (Hilary) on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 11:38 am:
>
> Stephen seems to have password-delivery problems keeping him
> from posting here himself. So while someone conducts a
> ritual to appease the email server gods (expect he will know
> a good one), here is what he wanted to post:
>
>
> Structural Anthropology
> and ?primitive? Systems of Classification
>
> By ?structural anthropology? I mean the primarily French
> tradition that combines linguistics, sociology,
> psychoanalysis and a sense of ?basic structures of thought?
> in non-technological societies to examine how language
> helps to create culture and identity.

IMHO this stuff is so 'out of date'. Linguistics is now dichotomised into Chomsky's Generative Grammar vs Haliday's Functional Grammar and wrestles with the dichotomy of lingustics/semiotics. Sociology is now dichotomised into the Small World Network focus on Aristocratic vs Egalitarian. Psychoanalysis is, well, a sort of cult based on later 19th to early 20th century musings on consciousness - it reflects the sex element of competitive exchange as Nietche's philosophy reflected the anger element - both dealing with idealist power and as such both exaggerated and so distortions of 'what is', and so totally out of touch with such concepts as devotion and the more matriarchal rather than patriarchal (and all of the different variations from mixing the elements of the dichotomy!)

> People like Marcel
> Mauss, Emile Durkheim, my favourite sinologist Marcel
> Granet, and Claude Levi-Strass would be examples.

IMHO out of date. These are all approximations when compared to what is coming out of neurosciences and cognitive science. You could burn all of this information and armed only with current work in neurosciences etc come up with BETTER material in that it would be 'fresh' and so untainted by the 'need' for people to stick to the 'past' even when current material transcends that past. Time to change ;-) - more precision is required.

> Often
> highly technical, this tradition nevertheless gives us some
> stunning insights into the ?primitive? levels of our thought
> and culture, particularly when combined with Jung?s sense of
> how the archetypes or ?gods? work on us through our
> complexes and how what we see as ?primitive thought? is
> actually a model of our own deep imagination that we
> experience every night in our dreams.
>

out of date if you make this the 'base line' - it isnt the base line, it is half way up the ladder of development and awareness. Jung's focus was more from an idealist perspective, a consciousness perspective, even if he focused on the 'universal unconscious' - we can go far deeper than these concepts, to the depths of our 'pure' animal nature, our primate nature, our living like all other neuron-dependent species off generations after generations of instincts development - but instincts not labelled until our consciousness turned up - instincts we can map to generic qualities shared to varying degrees with all other life forms.

To focus any analysis of humans on the EXPRESSIONS of humans is naive, words are NOT the territory if you want to get to the depths of our being; depths rooted in fundamental qualities derived from neurology and cognition, more so on the borders and so the realm of the neurocognitive. Our consciousness is 'driven' to interpret and so has in the past grasped at whatever it could to try and understand what was going on 'in here'. (e.g. http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/angels.html) - we now have access to 'in here' and so can make our interpretations empirically precise.

We can directly map basic qualities derived by interactions of neurology and context that make fundamental meanings that were later developed and exaggerated by our developing consciousness. In doing so we can map out these qualities to DIRECTLY relate to ANY specialisation such that the IC, being a specialisation, will have its hexagrams mapping directly to these core qualities FREE of ANY LOCAL social, conscious, interpretations. IOW to understand the IC IN FULL requires one to remove all LOCAL 'colourings' and reveal the core SPECIES-LEVEL natures that our consciousness customises to fit a particular.

THAT level of expression is pre ancient China or any other local collective and is the seed for all of the musings of the ancients (and not so ancient ;-)) - as such it is the language sourced in the 'Realm of the Vague', a language that filters up into consciousness and in doing so is labelled to 'fit' the current context and then transmitted.


> The thinkers I mention tend to differentiate between three
> kinds of ?classification? or methods of exchange of
> information in primitive cultures. All these operate with
> words, moving words around in different nets of association,
> just like the hexagrams in Yijing serve to display and
> organize words that carry the impact of the omens or
> xiang/symbols.
>

No. Words are too far up the ladder, it is FEELINGS that matter most of all and we can map the core feelings our species uses in the IC hexagrams and so show qualities that existed BEFORE words. IOW we can show the roots of 'nouns and verbs' stemming from basic neurocognitive dynamics of differentiating and integrating, focusing on WHAT and WHERE, on objects and relationships.

Words refine the communications by allowing that communication to be transported to different contexts where those words elicit, in general, the core qualities associated with the IC hexagrams - or any other specialisation.


>
> So why are figures 1 and 2, 27 and 28, 29 and 30, 61 and 62
> so ?basic??

They arnt. The forming of OCTETS is a natural product of the method of deriving the I Ching - the use of recursion (see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/btree.gif)

Thus depending on your approach, from the core 4096 possible meanings, how you compress those 4096 into 64 and those 64 into 8 and those 8 into 2, will determine the particular hexagrams that make-up the 8 (which, BTW reflect a wave-interference pattern when combined with the others - they are the troughs in http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/wave.jpg)

So, if we focus on converting the 4096 symbols of meaning into 64 then we compress the 4096 dodecagrams (2^12 - 12 line symbols) into 64 using changing line concepts (and so six lines of four possible states). Each hexagram as such is a GENERAL as well as a PARTICULAR in that it reflects (a) the compression of 63 dodecagrams into one six-line symbol where each of the 63 are manifest as changing line patterns in that hexagram, and (b) reflects the particular dodecagram that compresses directly into the hexagram without changing lines.

If we apply the same process to all of the hexagrams we find they compress into --- eight trigrams with moving lines and they compress into - yin and yang. The eight trigrams in fact represent eight hexagrams - they are:

01, 34, 19, 61, 62, 33, 20, 02

These of course reflect eight dodecagrams which are:

111111111111
111111110000
111100000000
110000000000
001111111111
000011111111
000000001111
000000000000

The CORE meanings of these eight hexagrams are in fact reflected in the qualities of the trigrams -

01 - heaven
34 - lake
19 - fire
61 - thunder
62 - wind
33 - water
20 - mountain
02 - earth

ALL of the different forms of eights will do this, thus you will find in the invarient rotation forms the making of the following links:

01 - heaven
61 - lake
30 - fire
27 - thunder
28 - wind
29 - water
62 - mountain
02 - earth

HOW you focus your compression will elicit these octets. BTW note that the compression factor continues where BOTH octets compress into heaven and earth.

The trigrams reflect COMPRESSION of 4096 into 8. Which means there are eight dodecagrams that map directly to the 8 trigrams for each octet that is derived (noting that each trigram is a compression of 8 hexagrams into one symbol).

ALL of this is basic dynamics of recursion, something not mentioned in your texts but something fundamental to how the IC works and how our brains work.

IMHO opinion Stephen, in trying to understand the core of the IC you are out of your depth. You need to do better to grasp the nature of the TOTAL I CHING - what you have at the moment is but a small part, a customised, local part, of what is going on. You will NOT find the core elements of the IC in the 'Traditional IC' since the originators of that material had no access to 'in here' as we do; their metaphors were rich, extreme, exaggerated reflecting strong anthropomorphism but lacking in access to the 3000+ years of information we now have on 'in here'.

> First off, of course, is their radical
> structural difference and their pivotal positions in the
> matrix at beginning, middle and end. This, in the mind of
> the bricoleurs or matrix makers would have great
> significance. They are where and what they are for a reason.
> I feel they are the great ?engines? of Change that in some
> way power and project the matrix and, similarly, places in
> our psyche that act as sites of transformation in the
> deepest sense, recharging experience with their primal
> energy.
>

LOL! - your ARE out of your depth! ;-) The core is 4096 (you could go deeper to 16+million but that is going too far for us, there is no need as such ;-)) HOW you decide to perceive things will lead to octets as 'fundamentals' but WHAT goes into those octets will depend on how you interpret - it is like looking through a prism or diamond shape, all facets are reflected in the one - a property of recursion where the whole is encoded into all parts.

I have snipped the rest. Not worthy of comment. There is a LOT to cover to get you onto the 'correct' path to understanding the TOTAL I CHING. (but dont feel I have singled you out (well, not too much) - many others on this list cop the same 'heat' ;-))

SIMPLY put any "?primitive? Systems of Classification" that stay around for a long time will do so since they reflect the core qualities I talk about. Those qualities can take on all sorts of labels but they will always shine through since they are hard coded into the neurology. simple.

To understand the IC you need to know its Science besides its Art, you need to know the precise but vague as well as the approximate but clear.

Chris.
 
C

cheiron

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Chris

Stephen is not in a position to reply to you ? He has no access to this site at present.

I accept that you have your approach? I accept that you believe it to be the one truth.

However I am interested in exploring the Yijing using Depth Psychology and so have no interest in the IDM.

My lack of interest does not give me the right to harangue you every time you post.

I hope you will reflect on the absurdity of pushing IDM forward on a thread focussing on another approach.

Everyone can see your posts on another thread if you were to start one.

Please do not interrupt this thread with contradictory models in a way which cannot, ever, lead to constructive criticism or of moving things forward toward a harmonious modification of either view.

For some of us it is a rare chance to discus a different approach, amongst ourselves and with the author.

--Kevin
 

malka

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Kevin, I'm interested to learn more of your exploration of the Yi through depth psychology. Can you start a thread or is there a thread I've missed? Sorry to all, I don't intend to interrupt this thread.

Thanks,
Malka
 
C

cheiron

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Hi Malka

This is it - though it hasn't got going yet


But here are some humble opinions uttered fearfully for the want of knowing what giants are out there reading ;)

Stephen Karcher 'Total I Ching' Is the only I Ching book I know which takes this approach.

Or looking at it another way the Traditional texts also take this approach with their deeply symbolic phrasing. Though quite a lot of work has been done to uncover real historical events behind the Yijing.

So? for example? 63:64? Is seen by some as:

63: After Completion? Was the point when King Wu had overthrown the Shang Lord.

64: Before Completion? Was the point before he had established his own Dynasty and brought order.

I suspect that ? Perhaps long ago ? a reader of the Yijing would have seen a deep symbolism attached to the hexagrams imbued with mythical meaning. We in the West do not have all of the stories so to speak? indeed many are probably lost. People like LiSe have worked very successfully with some of the oldest layers? ferreting out symbolic meaning.

On the other hand hard headed researchers like Steve Marshall have painstakingly researched historical meaning and content from Chinese texts.

Similarly Bradford Karcher has painstakingly reclaimed the text by offering systems to help English speakers get closer to the original sense.

All of these things drawn together can breath poetic meaning, mythical, historical and symbolic life into what might otherwise be text.

Karcher took a radical step in the book above and when straight for the mythical core? He is someone with a history in myth / depth psychology and the Yi? e has co-translated an excellent work with Ritsema and with all that under his belt he pulled out a mythical vision of the Yijing? Not to everyones taste.

I have made a few attempts here online to write stories and mythical images of some of the hexagrams.

Anyone can do it? I just let the images wash in and rather thank think too deeply, try to let my unconscious find a meaning. Just like one might do with a painting or fine art.

I?ve enjoyed your postings and would have posted more in reply? but this mapping has got me? it is not about the geometrical patterns for me, but plotting out Karcher?s model to build a graphical representation of how the images flow together? like energy flowing through the symbols of the hexagrams at the connection points.

Stephens book stays with the flow of mythical connections more? but I?m dyslexic and need a map so as not to get lost ;)

Warm wishes

--Kevin
 

malka

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Kevin, thanks for all the background info. As for your mapping, I have the same experience of it as I do with much of Chris' work. I admire it all, I read it for what I can get from it, and I'm just not there yet. What Hilary posted on Stephen's behalf is also just beyond my brain. It seems I'm still needing to allow the first layer of each hexagram to live within me, and I'm only just working on that. The mathematical calculations and the mappings I'm certain have value and are an asset to the inquiry. I look forward to gleaming more over time.

Thanks,
Malka
 
C

cheiron

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Malka


No probs... They are merely a matrix showing where the changing lines lead to... not that sophisticated... wish they were... chuckles.

I wish you well with your own journey and with the Yi... One thing which I think have seen over time is that everyone grows into it in their own way...

Warm wishes

--Kevin
 

chrislofting

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Kevin,

you wrote:
>
> Chris
>
> Stephen is not in a position to reply to you ? He has no
> access to this site at present.
>

he has - through hilary such that the discussion is two way, not one.

> I accept that you have your approach? I accept that you
> believe it to be the one truth.
>
> However I am interested in exploring the Yijing using Depth
> Psychology and so have no interest in the IDM.
>

you should - it covers the core qualities behind depth psychology and as such aids in fleshing out that material - your not understanding this is a problem. youll get there - but with IDM you can get there faster ;-)


> My lack of interest does not give me the right to harangue
> you every time you post.

but I DO have interest in that a dis-service to the IC is underway and needs to be delt with.
>
> I hope you will reflect on the absurdity of pushing IDM
> forward on a thread focussing on another approach.
>

There is no absurdity involved other than that of starting your approach half-way up the ladder and so missing the core elements. simple. ALL approaches have their core qualities sourced in IDM since that covers what the species does. EVERY approach is a specialisation, even depth psychology, and as such is metaphor for the generalisation that is our species-nature. Each specialisation can come up with their one archetypes that will reflect the labelling of deeper unconscious material derived from the species - THAT material is reflected in the IC and thus the ease in which you can use the IC in depth psychology.

IDM as such is not the equivalent of 'another approach', it is in fact the CORE from which all approaches will develop - it is meta approach if you like.


> Everyone can see your posts on another thread if you were to
> start one.
>
> Please do not interrupt this thread with contradictory
> models in a way which cannot, ever, lead to constructive
> criticism or of moving things forward toward a harmonious
> modification of either view.
>

rubbish. I will post to any thread I like, that is what PUBLIC lists are about. The fact that a perspecive is being presented as if the "TOTAL I CHING" and it is FALSE needs to be delt with and I will do that. You guys have a LOT of work to do, your hearts are in the right place but your minds are touch 'distorted' due to your education etc. Simple.

Now, the fact that you, Kevin, are putting in work on another thread re Karcher's perspective shows that you feel 'tension' in that if that is critised that is a problem for you. tough. The focus is on uncovering core elements on the I Ching etc and that means identifying perceptual errors as in Karcher's focus on his particular eights as 'fundamental' - this is rubbish if you understand the Science behind the IC. If you dont then you should be ashamed of yourself - or more so Karcher should for peddling his material as the "TOTAL I CHING".


> For some of us it is a rare chance to discus a different
> approach, ammongst ourselves and with the author.
>

even if it can be demonstrated that the author lacks precision is what is being presented? no way. If you present material as 'foundational' you have to prove it and I can show that Karcher is obviously 'misguided' in his understandings.

If you cant take that, if your a Karcher supporter, that is not my problem, it is yours and that of all others who take this mumbo jumbo as 'fact' when it is a mix of approximations, misguided understandings on meaning derivation etc etc etc.

Chris.
 

misterwu

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I simply will not engage in a battle of the jealous gods with Mr. Lofting, partially because it is self-defeating, partially because I consider much, though not all, of his work so wrong-headed and arrogant that it is not worth dignifying with a response. For whatever reasons, he is acting here like the mythological Harpies, who fly in and defecate all over the table just when we are about to eat.

Let me simply say this:

1) I choose my sources quite carefully because I feel they can help us look into the ?mythological mind of Change? in a way that more ?up-to-date sources,? with their condescension to the material, cannot.

2) I do not feel that the ?old people? have nothing to say to us, that we ?have what they did not have access to.? Indeed, I feel they had things we do not have access to, things of great value.

3) I feel the King Wen order offers real meaning, as do the ?words? and images it displays and the myth-world it carries. I really think one might at least look at this language before assuming one ?knows the real truth? of the Yi.

4) I feel Yijing is a book, not a binary diagram. We should look at it as a book, working with it in the way we try to see into and understand a text of real importance.

5) I feel that it is of primary importance to make something of the ?old ways? of looking at and using Change available to people in the act of divination. I have seen the material I am presenting be of great value in that act.

All that out of the way, I would be happy to respond to any real questions people might have about this material. I will check back here from time to time to see if there are any.

Best wishes

Stephen
 

chrislofting

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Stephen,

> By Misterwu (Misterwu) on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 05:09
> am:
>
> I simply will not engage in a battle of the jealous gods
> with Mr. Lofting,

(1) I am not a god but your phrasing suggests you think you are.
(2) formalising my name means you are 'puffing' yourself up - and so consider yourself 'superior' - LOL! talk about arrogance! ;-)

> partially because it is self-defeating,
> partially because I consider much, though not all, of his
> work so wrong-headed and arrogant that it is not worth
> dignifying with a response.


you have no idea about my work (I recall some past email of yours saying 'not interested, too busy focusing on the shamanistic perspective') so you obviously have not gone through it or else have done so with a quick scan, realised it will 'take time' to comprehend and so left it - working on the principle that if you cannot understand something it must be 'wrong headed' LOL! You will NEVER fully comprehend what is going on in the IC without reference to the material I have come up with. simple. fact. no BS.

> For whatever reasons, he is
> acting here like the mythological Harpies, who fly in and
> defecate all over the table just when we are about to eat.
>

Not at all. I am the concerned IChinger who cannot tolerate the sorts of distortions you are trying to sell as being the 'TOTAL I CHING'. IF you had gone through the work you would have found how octets develop in recursion and so not come up with the rubbish about the 1,2,27,28,29,30,61,62 being some 'fundamental' and so a 'universal' - it isnt, it is one of MANY context-sensitive patterns in the IC. Simply put, your presentation shows you naivete in understand the TOTAL I Ching as you attempt to sell the work as if 'total', SHAME STEPHEN SHAME.

> Let me simply say this:
>
> 1) I choose my sources quite carefully because I feel they
> can help us look into the ?mythological mind of Change? in a
> way that more ?up-to-date sources,? with their condescension
> to the material, cannot.
>

rubbish. there is no condescension in my work, it actually demonstrates the neurocognitive roots of the IC and so grounds it all 'in here' - but since 'in here' has adapted to 'out there' so 'as above, so below'. The issue is in the lack of precision in the past and so the need for excessive metaphorcation to describe reality. To try and bring the 10th century BC perspective into the 21st century AD, without reference to the findings in neurosciences, cognitive science, etc is worthless and in fact limits the scope of the IC overall.

With the IC+ material we move into the 21st century AD with a methodology that is easy to learn and incredibly deep, way beyond your 'total I Ching' version of things. IMHO you been exploiting the IC with all of your publications - the only useful material was the original ERANOS text and that was not all you. When the rights for that were sold to ELEMENT books, so you went with it and kept churning out 'repeats' in different clothes. Rip-off stuff dude.

> 2) I do not feel that the ?old people? have nothing to say
> to us, that we ?have what they did not have access to.?
> Indeed, I feel they had things we do not have access to,
> things of great value.
>

Since the process I talk about, a process FUNDAMENTAL to the I Ching (but not covered anywhere in you so-called 'total I Ching') is recursion so we move from the general to the particular, encoding the whole in all parts. Each level of development makes finer distinctions of the whole such that those working from level 6 can imagine that those working from level 2 'knew' level 6. No. They at best had an awareness of 'something more' but that was it. It is like a hologram, reduced bandwidth will give you low resolution images of the whole, turn up the bandwidth and out comes LOTS of details - as we now, as 'they' imagined, as 'they' at best 'intuited'.

> 3) I feel the King Wen order offers real meaning, as do the
> ?words? and images it displays and the myth-world it
> carries. I really think one might at least look at this
> language before assuming one ?knows the real truth? of the
> Yi.
>

Been through all of this - see the websites. learn something.


> 4) I feel Yijing is a book, not a binary diagram. We should
> look at it as a book, working with it in the way we try to
> see into and understand a text of real importance.
>

The I Ching is a metaphor for the qualities we all share as species members, and it even gets into the qualities we share with other neuron-dependent life forms. Your focus is too limited, too 'high up' the ladder to grasp what is going on here. Your 'total I Ching' is but an aspect of the whole and not total at all.

> 5) I feel that it is of primary importance to make something
> of the ?old ways? of looking at and using Change available
> to people in the act of divination. I have seen the
> material I am presenting be of great value in that act.
>

illusion, delusion. placebo effect. You seem to lack understanding of the power of consciousness to tell stories that ae believed 'blindly'. Attempts to replace the present with the past are a no no in the IC - see 26. You can hold firm to the beliefs as a form of social quality control but not to replace the developing - change is inevitable so get used to it dude!

If you have such a need to 'go back' then there is something else going on 'in' you. Learn some Science of the IC, until you do you will be wandering forever and in doing so doing a dis-service to you and your followers (as we have Kevin here, intensly focused on the one 'octet' etc as if 'new' and so patiently putting all patterns up on the list! If Kevin ever understands what is going on he will be doing this for a LONG time since he will need to deal with all of the other octet expressions!)

> All that out of the way, I would be happy to respond to any
> real questions people might have about this material. I will
> check back here from time to time to see if there are any.
>

oh how big you. thank you oh great, deceiving, one! ;-) LOL! you are funny Stephen - you will need to surrender eventually, to confess your wrong doing, and so be 'enlightened'! ;-)

Chris.
 

megabbobby

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i really enjoy the posts in the forum..

i enjoy how mr karcher has shown some 'death card' moments in the i ching sequence. i love the ace of spades

okay chris brainiac

i think you should run for president.

next..
are you basically saying that i ching is a binary code pure and simple that works on the brain in local and more widespread contexts?

you know on lise's wonderful website she says that the ancient wisdom was given to the ancestors by 'people from the stars' or something like that.

do you think that aliens gave the brain binary code to the chinese back in the day?

you still haven't really disproved synchronicity to me all the way...

yall are great

please dont get pissed off
 

chrislofting

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> By Megabbobby (Megabbobby) on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 -
> 09:54 am:
>
> i really enjoy the posts in the forum..
>
> i enjoy how mr karcher has shown some 'death card' moments
> in the i ching sequence. i love the ace of spades
>
> okay chris brainiac
>
> i think you should run for president.
>
> next..
> are you basically saying that i ching is a binary code pure
> and simple that works on the brain in local and more
> widespread contexts?
>

The IC is a metaphor, a specialisation, for what the brain deals with, it is a product of the brain .... perhaps we need to cover some basic brain dynamics first:

Your brain is lateralised (left/right, front/back etc) into sections that deal more with differentiating and others that deal with integrating. This may appear 'binary' as in 1:1, A/NOT-A but in fact the relationship is more 1:2+ Why? because differentiating is more precise than integrating, differentiating has unit of measure of ONE. Integrating is less precise, it is limited to a unit of measure no less than a PAIR. Zoom-in on the differentiating side only and you can have 1:1 dynamics.

You will thus have TWO forms of dichotomies - competitive (1/1) vs cooperative (1/2+). In the latter, the more 'common' for the species, the differentiating has emerged from the integrating, as a branch develops from a trunk. Thus our species-nature is overally integrating, overall reactive, holistic in that it interacts with reality through instincts. Our consciousness-nature is more differentiating, more competitive, more 'yang', more 1:1, but interacts with reality in serial - through the delayed response of language - and so is more parts oriented - even if it likes to think otherwise!

Our brains oscillate electrically across these areas (different timings etc) in the brain and combined with the attention system's ability to focus on something, to go for 'details', so the oscillation across the dichotomy of differentiate(yang)/integrate(yin) encapsulated within what we are focused upon, will generate qualities, derived from applying the dichotomy to itself - recursion, self-referencing at work. The qualities are POTENTIALS such that a PARTICULAR moment will map to one of these qualities. Thus in some the qualities are not well differentiated, in other they are. In some one or two are 'well developed' and the others are not.

As a genetically-driven life form so CONTEXT pushes us thus change to a context we have not lived in before and it can push our buttons to elicit a 'childlike' quality - one of the qualities we have not developed in our everyday existence. Our consciousness allows us to 'solve' the problem by the use of IMAGINATION to 'train' the full set of qualities BEFORE we hit a context that sets them off.

Our brains will thus 'build' meaning and apply that meaning, the set of qualities, to a context, what we have focused upon.
if we assign '1' to differentiating and '0' to integrating, after just three loops of recursion we have generated eight qualities ordered:

111, 110, 101, 100 / 011, 010, 001, 000

These qualities reflect wholeness, partness, static relationships, dynamic relationships, where these four are repeated in that we can have wholeness in differentiating as well as wholeness in integrating etc. Therefore there are major differences between a context that is differentiating vs one that is integrating.

ANY dichotomy applied recursively will give you these qualities, these 'feelings' - I relabel them to give a more 'feel' focus on:

sense of blending, of being/becoming whole. - the yang wholeness is to assert the context, to take over. The yin wholeness is to adapt to the context, to fit in, to integrate.

sense of bounding, of being/becoming a part. There is focus here on a border that expands (101), pushes outwards vs one that contracts (010) and so holds in, protects.

sense of bonding, of sharing space with another/others

sense of binding, of sharing time with another/others

Each sense is both a PART of the 'greater' whole, but also a whole in its own right, its own context.

ANY dichotomy will come up with these generic patterns. SO if we move up a level to human emotions and we have the dichotomy of fight/flight. Apply that dichotomy recursively and out pops the same qualities as above but relabelled to reflect emotions

anger, love(sex), acceptance, surprise / anticipation, rejection, sadness, fear

111 - wholeness through asserting, through taking over the context, sticking out, blending OUT - uses anger
110 - wholeness through sharing space with another - sex (replication)

The above focus on replacement of context either immediately (anger, erradication) or over time (sex, replication)

101 - wholeness through emphasis of being accepted.
100 - wholeness through 'sudden' revelations (new ideas etc, new times, now, begin, immediate)

these still focus on taking over the context, on replacing it.

011 - wholeness through anticipation - cultivation, time sharing, delayed development and also ending
010 - wholeness through rejection - keeping things/people OUT, to keep the existing context

the above two focus on maintaining current context.

001 - wholeness through sadness that gets refined into discernment, quality control
000 - wholeness through dissapearing, blending IN to the context - fear

these two *strongly* focus on coexisting, on sharing context.

Thus the focus of 111,110,101,100 is on asserting the context to varying degrees.
The focus on 011, 010, 001, 000 is on adapting to the context, integrating with it, to varying degrees.

There is nothing Chinese here but we find that ALL of these map to the general qualities of the trigrams:

111 - heaven (anger, respect, devotion to self, wholeness by differentiating - blend)
110 - lake (sex/love, wholeness by replication, copies, representations - bond)
101 - fire (acceptance, be 'in' my gang or outside; partness - bound)
100 - thunder (surprise - dynamic relationships expanding - bind)
011 - wind (anticipation - dynamic relationships contracting - bind)
010 - water (rejection - contractive parts; 'us' vs 'them' - bound)
001 - mountain (sadness - sharing space 'in here', discernment, bonding)
000 - earth (fear - devotion to others, wholeness by integrating - blend)

FROM these raw emotions develop refined ones, thus from anger comes respect. From fear come devotion to others (the group, the place to hide) From sadness/grief/loss comes discernment, quality control 'in here'. THus each quality can be interpreted as positive or negative.

Now, take these qualities as a set and apply the set to EACH quality allows you to refine each quality - you get 'sadness IN anger' or 'rejection IN sex' etc etc and we move from 8 qualities to 64. Do the same thing and we move from 64 to 4096 qualities - all usable to describe ANY moment - and we still havent gotten to words, to labels, where they serve to tie a quality to a particular context so we can communicate about that particular context with the SAME set of qualities we use for all meaning creation! The advantage of words is we can roll the context up and take it with us to tell a story somewhereelse!

The IC reflects all of this and uses its own language to describe it all.

> you know on lise's wonderful website she says that the
> ancient wisdom was given to the ancestors by 'people from
> the stars' or something like that.
>

we have adapted to the environment and so to the universe by internalising it. That is why our maps are so good. That adaptation could be interpreted as being 'seeded' from 'out there'! ;-)

> do you think that aliens gave the brain binary code to the
> chinese back in the day?
>

there is no need for that hypothesis in that the IDM work shows the same code for all species members, it is CONTEXT that elicits all of the seeming differences. Thus the conditions in ancient China etc recursed a dichotomy - the one called 'yin/yang'.

In the West the same thing happened but the terms were earth/air out of which emerged water/fire. The Chinese went one better to give mountain, wind, thunder, lake and with that came more precision - the west gets a little 'all over the place' with their categories ;-)

One point of interest, if we have adapted to the universe in such a way, so will other life forms 'out there' with the same sort of neurological complexity - aliens speaking languages like ours! (and so being understandable).

Chris.
 

heylise

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People from the stars - or even aliens??
I am busy enough dealing with the aliens down here on earth, to ever talk about aliens from outer space.
Ah - maybe Bradford Karcher?? Even Chris says we might understand them. But then they will have to speak a lot simpler than I encounter on this planet.

Love the thread btw, even though it is in many places beyond my brain.

LiSe
 

megabbobby

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it seems like it could really benefit the planet if you published this stuff in the mainstream psych research journals. --idm psychotherapy--

once understood (by those of us who speak english)
haha---could be as important as what freud and jung contributed.
 

anon99

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Dear Chris please would you take care to spell correctly. You are the worst speller here and I'm afraid it makes your work hard to take seriously. Example - 'delt' this should be 'dealt' . Another example - you frequently say 'your' when meaning 'you are' which should be 'you're'. 'Your' is possessive as in 'your shoes' etc etc. I would not mention this but you seem so eager to point out how poorly educated we are.

Another thing to consider is that if one repeatedly advertises in the same place and does not get the results one hopes for the best thing to do would be to market your product elsewhere, to find a more receptive audience. Either that or modify the product to adapt to the tastes of your target audience.

Now as you have been selling your wares here for a long long time and still feel the need to post yet more links and still feel frustrated that no one 'gets it' - perhaps my friend it is time to have a little think. Are you using your time to the best advantage ? I myself have developed a severe phobic reaction to the the words IDM, PARTS, WHOLES AND RECURSIVE DICHOTOMIES. They make me ill, I virtually gag on the words when I see them and quickly scroll down fast as I can. I am afraid the great message of IDM will forever now be lost upon me, I have so disliked the force feeding technique.

Never have I seen such saintly tolerance as on this forum, such patience, such forbearance, such incredible politeness. I myself lack these qualities, though I have learnt much from those who exhibit them here. So your gift to me has not been the IDM material at all, but that I have had a chance to witness and learn that great patience and tolerance can bring out the best in people. It did in you for a while....but you seem to be building up to dictatorship again...?
 

gene

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By people from the stars is correct. I know some people do not like hearing that, but it is absolutely, unquestionably true. Many of us came from the stars too.

Gene
 

gene

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While I have not had the time to thoroughly process Chris's work, I find it very valuable. And valuable whether I agree with it or not. So far, for the most part, I do. At any rate, love or hate, I recognize the value of having his posts on the board. I also recognize his right, and if I don't care to read it I can skip it. Same with others. We all have that right and that opportunity. Let's take advantage of it.

Gene
 
C

cheiron

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Stephen - If you are still around and can help.

In your Crossline Omen part of the article you have Inner Centre and Outer Centre.

In one you read left to right and in the other you read right to left.

Is this what you would do in a single oracle or have you given examples of two readings as per your underlining 17.2 and the second oracle as 18.5?

Also can you say what significance you attach to an oracle falling in either the inner; threshold or outer parts of the hexagram, if any?

Thanks

--Kevin
 

chrislofting

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Hey dude....

>
> By Anon99 (Anon99) on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 10:25 pm:
>
> Dear Chris please would you take care to spell correctly.
> You are the worst speller here and I'm afraid it makes your
> work hard to take seriously. Example - 'delt' this should
> be 'dealt' . Another example - you frequently say 'your'
> when meaning 'you are' which should be 'you're'. 'Your' is
> possessive as in 'your shoes' etc etc. I would not mention
> this but you seem so eager to point out how poorly educated
> we are.
>

oh look - its one of the over educated again. One can tell in that they ignore the meat and go for the layout. My spelling may be 'poor', or is that 'pour'? !LOL!, but it is minor and as such ignorable and tolerable - except by the over-educated who seem to think that correct spelling is as important as the facts the words represent!


> Another thing to consider is that if one repeatedly
> advertises in the same place and does not get the results
> one hopes for the best thing to do would be to market your
> product elsewhere, to find a more receptive audience.
> Either that or modify the product to adapt to the tastes of
> your target audience.
>

another error - I dont advertise, I utilise what I have on my websites to conserve energy in having to repeat myself to any audience. On this list we discuss things and I utilise the websites to aid in expressing my thoughts - that is what the links are about and of you dont use them then you are not a true 'web-ist'.

Also note that this being a public list so people come on and off it 'at will' so it helps in giving as much information as possible in certain contexts - thus in one email I may just say 'see 26' and in another I may overload it with links to articles that may aid in understanding. simple. I am not selling anything in that what is there is free. You can take it or leave it at no cost.

As to modifying the product to fit all tastes, not interested - too much effort. IF you cannot understand it then you are not worthy. simple. Now, if you make the attempt to understand it then you are worthy and so when asking questions will get quality replies - otherwise you get what you are getting ;-)

A common theme in the overeducated is on 'immediacy' in comprehension; they seem to think that their education ensures they understand 'all' and so what is not immediate is not meaningful! - delusion , based on not understanding the dynamics of bandwidth/time relationships.

> Now as you have been selling your wares here for a long long
> time and still feel the need to post yet more links and
> still feel frustrated that no one 'gets it' - perhaps my
> friend it is time to have a little think. Are you using
> your time to the best advantage ?

Sure. I am communicting with other IChingers on this list. Thats it. simple. My prose is free, my willingness to participate unrestrained, and that includes a willingness to take on those who present material that does dis-service to the IC.

> I myself have developed a
> severe phobic reaction to the the words IDM, PARTS, WHOLES
> AND RECURSIVE DICHOTOMIES. They make me ill, I virtually
> gag on the words when I see them and quickly scroll down
> fast as I can. I am afraid the great message of IDM will
> forever now be lost upon me, I have so disliked the force
> feeding technique.
>

your not making sense. There is no force feeding. Your filtering systems seem to suffer from overeducation such that minor spelling errors are considered of more value to write about than the material I work with. This perspective of putting issues of spelling ahead of IC issues shows you to be foolish; it is an attitude of someone trying to be 'aristocratic' but lacking any foundation other than to spell well!

Your not a pompous pommie are you? do you 'like speak proper'? LOL!

> Never have I seen such saintly tolerance as on this forum,
> such patience, such forbearance, such incredible politeness.

really - thank you from myself and all others on this list - I must assume that your past experiences have been involved with pomposity etc, your 'usual' context perhaps?

> I myself lack these qualities, though I have learnt much
> from those who exhibit them here.

From the tones in this email - I think not.

> So your gift to me has
> not been the IDM material at all, but that I have had a
> chance to witness and learn that great patience and
> tolerance can bring out the best in people. It did in you
> for a while....but you seem to be building up to
> dictatorship again...?
>

(1) again? - where/when was there one before?

(2)A dicatorship requires firm control of all aspects of a list and the total submission of the members and the names and addresses of those who show 'deviant' behaviour (as well as the location of their children and spouses at any time).

This list is open - rich in dynamics and there is some degree of control stemming from the core principles present sourced in the IC - something you seem to be not aware of ;-)

When data is presented on the list as FACT to the level of being a 'universal' but can be shown to be FICTION so that problem needs to be addressed and I will do it. simple.

So, if your so bored that all you can do is comment on spelling etc may I suggest you go through IDM and learn a new language - or more so the core qualities behind all languages. Not an adertisment, call it a community announcement in that it is not dressed up to be something it isnt - it is basic core stuff you may find useful in reflections on the IC.

Chris.
 

misterwu

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Hi Kevin

The system is simple in operation: You read through the crossline images from the perspective of the transforming line you have received in a reading. I see the two hexagrams in a Pair as ?Inspiring? and ?Realizing,? that is, tending to be concerned with the inner inspiration of something or with how it can be or might be realized.

So, for example, you receive line 4 of hexagram 9, Accumulating Small or Gathering in the Ghosts. This is one of those ?Zones of Radical Transformation? projected by the Primary Figures, in this case hexagram 1, the Dragon and his inspiring force, is connecting with 61 The Opened Heart. The basic image is:

Small Accumulates. The procession to the altar.
There is a connection to the spirits that will carry you through.
Bad blood leaves and apprehension departs.
This is not a mistake.

This means uniting purpose with what is above. You make the connection to the spirits. You can act with confidence now. The spirits are with you. Forget about old quarrels and resentments. Announce yourself and your new identity. This is not a mistake. Your purpose is united with those above.

The Crossline Omen is:

After the Crossing (9.4 > 1.4 : 1.3 > 10.3). This is a transition when the creative power of the Dragon appears in the Opened Heart. The spirit is playing in the primal abyss now. As you struggle on, using this inspiring force again and again, old ghosts and angry souls come back to haunt you. Deal with them. Stay armed and alert. They will soon vanish, for this marks the return of the Way in your life. Do not presume to act like the Great Leader. Step outside the norms and re-imagine the situation. Co-operate with the on-going process of change.

The line position (After the Crossing) shows that the inspiration is working in your relations to the outer world, that is, the inspiration to gather in all your ghosts, as it were, it has just crossed over from the inner (zhen) trigram or world and is working in the hui or distress trigram. The crossline is read from the underlined number that indicates your position. (SORRY, underlining and bold did not come through in the message. Underlined number here is 9.4)

If you follow the images through, you can see a pathway towards making this inspiration real, realizing it. Here, you would realize that this is a time when creative energy is available to make major changes, but you must avoid attempting to take control, to be ?inflated? and identify with this power.

Now, say you received the paired line to 9.3 in a reading, 10.4, indicating you are ?stepping out to meet a new destiny and identity? in relation to the great world around you and you must learn to ?make your way.? In that case, you are attempting to realize something and the line position (Approaching the Threshold) shows it is just approaching the border: An impulse to action is coming up from within and exerting a great pressure to manifest. Here you read from the perspective of looking back or reflecting on the inspiring power.

Here is the basic image:

Treading. Someone squints and thinks they can see.
Someone limps and thinks they can Tread.
Someone Treads on the Tiger's tail and it mauls them.
Trap! The Way closes.
This is a soldier acting as a Great Leader.

Not the place to use brightness, not the time to move with the group. Not an appropriate situation unless you are a Great Chief with a strong purpose. This is not the way to act. You are presuming on inadequate powers. Go on like this and the Tiger will maul you. You are not the leader, so do not presume to be one. It would be a useless sacrifice.

And here is the Crossline, this time read from the different perspective (underlined number would be 10.3).

Approaching the Threshold (9.4 > 1.4 : 1.3 > 10.3). This is a transformation when the creative power of the Dragon appears in the Opened Heart, marking the return of the Way in your life. As you struggle on, old ghosts and angry souls come back to haunt you. Stay alert. Do not let them trap you into compulsive action. Forget about old quarrels, resentments and your desire to control others, for the spirit is playing in the primal abyss now. You can make a connection with it that lets you act with real confidence. Announce your new identity and unite your purpose with what is above. You are connected with a creative force.

If you follow the images here, you get a sense of the importance of the moment and some insight into the temptations that will inevitably rise up as you move into realization ? old pains and power compulsions that you must at all costs avoid. The new identity will emerge precisely when you can strip away these old compulsions.

Because this is such an important time of dealing with old ghosts, if I were reading this, I would also take a look at the Karmic Nodes to see where the ghosts are coming from and what future developments might be calling out to you now. These would be the relevant ages and themes.

1 5:6 25:26 37:38 57:58 61


Basically, I read the line positions in terms of the zhen and hui trigrams: inner foundations and outer ?trouble? or distress to be confronted.

Line one would say something is just beginning and is still exchanging information and energy with other figures.

Line two is the Inner Center, where something manifests in the center of your inner world.

Lines 3 and 4 are the threshold of manifestation. With line 3, something is approaching the threshold from the inner center, while at line four it has manifested in the outer world and wants to move toward the Outer Center. This can indicate the possibilities (or not) of realizing your desire at this time.

Line 5 is the Outer Center, describing your relations to all that is outside you, including social/power structures.

Line 6 is the culmination of the process and the point at which it passes energy or information on to another figure. This often represents either ?wisdom? or a clear warning of the failure to ?hear? the message of the figure itself.

So a hexagram can ?speak? with six different voices from six different places. Often these voices will not say the same thing, and the diviner or reader tries to sense where they are coming from and help the inquirer hear each of them in their proper perspective. For example, an Inner Center ?voice? might be very favorable, indicating your inner drive is solid and sincere, while the fourth line ?voice? will be quite negative. This would probably be a warning that however good your intentions are, this is simply not the time to try to realize or manifest them.

Best wishes

Stephen
 

hilary

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Thanks, especially for the take on the much-discussed problem with 'contradictory' moving lines. Just one thing...
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Now, say you received the paired line to 9.3 in a reading, 10.4,
...<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you meant the pair to 9.4, 10,3
 

misterwu

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Whoops, sorry about that. Number dyslexia and all. That's why I think about all these funny transformations.

Stephen
 
C

cheiron

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Thanks Stephen

and Hilary.

Am working through this now.

Will come back I am sure


--Kevin
 

yidiot

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moi maybe yidiot

but what difference is there between Chris' and Stephen's posts?

They both seem to construct a tremendous layer of information over something that was supposed to be simple

They both claim to be taking it to new dimensions, and that their approach is a major breakthrough in Yixue

They both can be quite boring

They both occasionaly throw in some interesting thought that seems to compensate for the boring times

But I dont understand: if it aint broke, why fix it? And who is this King Wen and who cares about which order he chose?

Will someone please clarify this here creature?
 

yidiot

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oh, look, theres an elephant in that cloud over there...

It IS an elephant and I challenge anyone that says otherwise to a duel at sunset
 

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