Steps of Yu (new material from Stephen Karcher)

[chrislofting]

Stephen, I have split this into FOUR emails since I think what is being delt with needs to be clearly emphasised beyond ?um well like you just sort of swap the trigrams and out pops meaning?!

In the other parts I have itemised points to make it easy to discuss a point by number.

If you want to review the early material, see my 1995+ website starting from this page:

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/index1.html where the focus is on the brain?s use of dichotomisations to derive meaning and its expression in such systems as the I Ching.

The particular material on context hexagrams starts at this page: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/index2.html - follow the other links on that page for more.

The material is intense, disorganised, etc etc but gives one a background as to where IDM and IC+ have developed from. The swapping concept came from my analysis of patterns in describing changing lines (covered a lot of IC texts, from Wilhelm to the work you and Ritsema did at Eranos.)

The pattern was just ?detected? and in need of grounding, of identifying ?why? other than ?it is just a property of dichotomies?. I presented the material on a number of lists (hexagram 8, midaughter etc etc) but my material was to the ?traditionalists? a little extreme, as was my prose! ;-) (I got kicked off a couple of ?politically correct? lists ;-))


Now lets move to 2004. What follows DOES relate to ?swapping? but I think is necessary to show what we are dealing with, the ?big? picture.

Science appears to have ?caught up? to IDM to some degree through recent work on networks. I have written about this to the clarity list and my own ichingplus list as well as IDMeaning list but only have one paper on my websites addressing the material directly ? http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~lofting/history.html (the particular focus is on a marxist concept of Historical Materialism) ? not posted to the main site due to FTP problems (http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting)

TO summarise the findings:
In IDM I came across TWO basic forms of dichotomies, one where the distribution of energy to each element in the dichotomy was the same, and the other where there was a sharp distortion in energy distribution reflecting the exaggeration of one element from the other; the YANG element was ?stronger?.

This is represented in such IDM diagrams as http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/dichoenergy.jpg What I had in fact found was dichotomies that get represented as normal distribution curves (gaussian distribution) vs those represented as power laws. (there is an error in the above diagram where the lower part reflects power laws not gaussian distribution but the pattern is more a skewing of the normal distribution to one side)

The power law dichotomies are the ?interesting? ones in that they seem to reflect a core dynamic inherent in our brains and in the universe ? IOW our brains have adapted to ?out there? by internalising core information processing dynamics. Thus in these dichotomies the ?left? element is an exaggeration of ?something? out of the ?right? element. We also see hierarchy here where the left element becomes the right element for the next level of processing. An example using Chinese terms where we move (a) right to left, general to particular an (b) top to bottom, general to particular:

Yi Chi / Wu Chi (change in extension / no extension)
T?ai Chi / Yi Chi (grand extension / change in extension)
YinANDYang / T?ai Chi (parts / whole)
YinXORYang / YinANDYang
YinIMPYang / YinXORYang (IMP = IMPLIES in that the exclusion is absolute in time and space ? this relationship shows the ASYMMETRY involved, XOR/AND is still symmetric and so does not capture the energy bias)
Yang / Yin (basic parts)

Our brains, in the processing of information in general, reflects this pattern with the core ?template? for all of the dichotomies being differentiating/integrating. (and so XOR is more differentiating than AND that is more integrating etc. This pattern operates above right to left (integrate to differentiate) and top to bottom.)
Cont in PART 2:

 

[chrislofting]

Part 2:
In the ?small world? network material, a fundamental dichotomy has emerged, that of aristocratic/egalitarian ( a dichotomy used in sociology ? much of the SW work has stemmed from sociology focus on collectives) and (a) it is a power law and (b) there is a dynamic that goes:

(1) egalitarian context (no differentiations, aka the ?uncarved block? of chapter 28 of the tao te ching)

(2) FROM the egalitarian comes an exaggeration, a particular person, or idea, which ?sticks out?.

(3) This exaggeration has an affect on the expression of the group in that:

a. Some will be attracted to follow the exaggeration
b. Some will be attracted to oppose the exaggeration

(4) Over time the exaggeration attracts the group such that it gets ?crowded? around the exaggeration

(5) Others will start to COPY the exaggeration and set up their own ?fan clubs? (recall in ancient texts the stories of times with an abundance of ?false prophets? etc ? THIS is what they were trying to describe ? a local version for ancient China would be the Warring States period)

(6) These exaggerations reflect the concepts of being UNIVERSALS, HUBS, through which a lot of associations are made, as compared to those who are more local context, few associations.

(7) Being universals these exaggerations take on an aristocratic perspective where their ?words? etc attempt to assert the context, take it over, REPLACE others etc. IOW this realm is strongly competitive to a degree where even cooperation is for competitive means.

(8) Thus we have (a) a yang/yin dichotomy of aristocratic/egalitarian and (b) a dynamic of egalitarian to aristocratic.

(9) The dynamic continues in that as competition heats up, so the core universals face attack from the userpers (even one?s own family ? a common theme in aristocrats ? see history of royal families! ? or of wolf packs, same behaviour when the pack gets too big). This stress leads to (a) collapse or (b) a ?bifurcation?, the group splits into two or more and so an initial loss of energy etc but a chance to re-group prior to starting all over again. BUT there is also (c) in that all of the universals means a focus in ?self-containment? and so on ?self-referencing? etc etc where that act alone means a focus on precision and so use of the ?most efficient? algorithms and formulas. That focus on precision means that all of the universals start to look ?the same? ? different clothes, same practices. This pattern of development is a pattern that eventually leads to ? phase transition.

(10) In the ?usual? dynamics, prior to the extremes of phase transition, the egalitarian has ?taken over? the context and the universals are replaced. The issue is that there is nowhere for the aristocrats to go, other than to ?die? or swap contexts. (see the diagram mentioned in 14 below)

(11) Long term, due to the CONTEXT of aristocratic/egalitarian being FIXED, so movement of egalitarians into an aristocratic context means they will, over time, start to express their egalitarianism in aristocratic ways, they will become corrupt, decadent, fragmented, elitist etc. Same for the ?fallen? aristocrats in that they will start to express egalitarian ideals. OUT of egalitarianism comes a need to ESCAPE in that we have a drive to assert our individuality.

(12) The integrating nature of egalitarianism reflects evolution at work but that can be ?repressive? such that revolution can develop to again reflect the ?exaggeration from the group? dynamic.

(13) BUT in all of this ?cyclic? behaviour, each cycle will generate true universals ? universals that are not ?local icons? but are valued across egalitarian/aristocratic perspectives. Each cycle will add more universals such that, as a whole, the passage of development is increasingly aristocratic! (and so we head towards that point of phase transition, or implosion! ;-))

(14) See the diagram http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~lofting/aristo.jpg

END OF PART 2, cont in part 3

 

[chrislofting]

PART 3:

(15) All of the above relates to the IC in that, as IDM shows, the IC is a metaphor, a specialisation, for the general dynamics of our ?small world? brain. This is reflected in what I call the ?dimension of precision? where the dimension reflects the binary ordering of the IC from yin (general, egalitarian, approximate) to yang (particular, aristocratic, precise).

(16) A hexagram reflects this pattern in that we move from bottom to top, from general to particular, from egalitarian to aristocratic (worker to sage). The line position patterns reflect the ordering of hexagram 64 but interestingly, if you read the King Wen sequence backwards, from 64 to 01 so the PAIRS reflect this distinction of egalitarian to aristocratic, from mixed to pure (where 01 would reflect the final state of phase transition in that all is ?universals?, all are ?same?) ? In my analysis of the genesis of the traditional sequence I focus on this 1/64 relationship of pure/group etc but from a categorical, static format (see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/cracked.html)

(17) Thus in the traditional sequence the pair of 01 / 02 reflects the egalitarian sense expressed in a pure form (02) and the aristocratic sense expressed in a pure form (01). At the other end of the ordering we have the egalitarian expressed in its mixed form (64) vs the aristocratic expressed in its mixed form (63) etc etc.

(18) The use of recursion means that half of an ordering has an ?aristocratic? focus, and the other half an ?egalitarian? focus, and this is also at the level of line pairs as well as trigram pairs, hexagrams pairs (reflected in dodecagrams) etc etc

(19) So, finally we come to trigrams in hexagrams. The BOTTOM POSITION of a hexagram is more GENERAL and so EGALITARIAN, more YIN, more RAW than the TOP POSITION that is more PARTICULAR and so more ARISTOCRATIC, more YANG, more REFINED.

(20) Thus a trigram changes expression depending on its position, its context, in the top the context will elicit a more ?refined? expression that the bottom. In IC+ we have:

a. heaven ? perseverance (bottom) to singlemindedness (top) ? (total faith in self)
b. lake ? self-reflection to intense expression
c. fire ? guidance to direction setting
d. thunder ? enlightenment to awareness
e. wind ? cultivation to becoming/being influencial
f. water ? containment to control
g. mountain ? self-constraint to discernment
h. earth ? devotion to dualmindedness (total faith in another/others)

(21) In changing line patterns we ?move? from A to B but the focus is on the change in A being sourced in the context and that context being describable by some hexagram (since the IC reflects ?all there is? so the source of change MUST BE describable by a hexagram).

(22) Due to the FIXED nature of bottom to top, of egalitarian to aristocratic, with the above described development dynamic of ?small world networks?, the TOP trigram has emerged from the bottom, IOW the bottom trigram is the context for the top. (for finer detail, so we focus on lines, thus the context for line 6 is that set-up by line 5 that is set up by 4 etc etc)

(23) Over time there will be a dynamic of top attracting bottom in general, and due to line patterns etc so some can attract quickly, some slowly, some disallow the development, the thread is frozen, dies out etc ? all stuff to review and covered in general in up/down dynamics in traditional material but no reason ?why? from as Science, empirical, perspective. (we should be able to derive some maths for it based on SW network material ? Andreas is the maths guy here, he has the maths PhD!)

END OF PART 3

 

[chrislofting]

PART 4:

(24) From this dynamic of trigrams so we move to one of hexagrams and changing lines - When a line or lines are given as changing so A moves to B. BUT the path of A to B MUST reflect the same dynamic of ?egalitarian? to ?aristocratic? as is done in the trigrams from bottom to top. ? the current state is the ?same? and change introduces an exaggeration, a difference.

(25) We can sense this intuitively in that when we seek out and use the IC we are putting ourselves into yin mode, trying to integrate ourselves and the IC to work as a whole to produce a reading that is an exaggeration, a particular from the general; we are not confident in ourselves, we seek an answer THROUGH another medium and as such are ?egalitarian? in focus and the IC is the universal whose advice we seek.

(26) In this process of enquiry, if A is the received hexagram, and B the derived, something in the context of A is FORCING a change, pushing A to B such that there MUST BE some relationship of B to that context, the change/distortion is not to X or Y etc but specifically to B.

(27) If A is being ?forced? to ?change? to B, and if B is the RESPONSE to the STIMULUS then swapping trigrams or rotating the hexagram appears to give the context, the stimulus. The issue here is on swapping vs rotating. (five phase also gets involved here ? see pages off http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icfive0.html where I have raised some issues re swapping etc)

(28) What we seem to see here is the encoding of ?stimulus/response? into a hexagram ? IOW a stimulus contains the seed of its response as the response contains the seed of the stimulus! Thus in a hexagram the stimulus is in the LOWER trigram as the response is in the upper. If you ROTATE the hexagram and you have another example (reflecting the patterns in the traditional sequence of individual/group) and possibly different trigrams;

(29) If you SWAP the trigrams you maintain the stimulus/response of the particular trigrams but now the format is in reverse; IOW you elicit the trigrams in the opposite space, top now in ?egalitarian?. Bottom now in ?aristocratic? and so the WHOLE of the hexagram reflects the different orderings and the associated qualities (more pairs ;-)) e.g. swap the trigrams of 23 gives you 15. Thus a context of levelling things out (15) will elicit, develop into, a response of pruning (23). A context of housekeeping/pruning (23) will elicit a response of levelling things out (15).

(30) The context hexagram will do what nature does, it will push buttons of any hexagram in that context and so will cause a transmutation in ANYTHING that is in that context to what is the ?best fit? response for that context. As individuals at the species level, working off instincts, so a context will elicit the instincts that make the individual ?fit in? to the context. It will ?ignore? over time any attempts to bypass the instincts ? our minds will be asking ?why the hell did I do THAT!?? ? IOW at the level of being reactive, instincts driven, resistance is futile! ;-)

(31) As CONSCIOUS individuals we have a developing different story in that we can ASSERT the context, REPLACE it ? we can IMAGINE contexts and pre-empt exposure by learning instincts/habits NOW, prior to experiences. IOW we can refine the instincts, train them, and so ?fit in? to a degree we want.

(32) Thus by understanding the swap dynamics you can introduce a context and predict the outcome of change in general upon someone/thing in that context. The issue is the TIME factor. IOW some changes will be quick, others slow, and if you don?t stay around but change your place to some other context then different context introduces different rules.

(33) Thus a context of 01 will always transform someone/thing in that context to being ?singleminded?. A context of 05 will always convert something/someone in that context into being compromising (06). A context of 06 will convert someone/something in that context to being ?waiting? for an opportunity to come around (05). Now the point here is that this swap is also a rotation so there is, to me, a degree of resolution possibly missing.

(34) IT is well known in education etc that to get the best out of someone they need to be in the right context in that the context will ?push buttons?, their species-nature instincts, that will get an interaction going benefiting both individual and context. Consciousness ADDS to this in that we can create a context that suits, but that is 'new' stuff, we are still dominated by species instincts.

(35) Trigram swapping seems to bring out this PUSH focus (and it can be used in hexagram swapping in dodecagrams or line swapping in line pairs)

(36) The most important point here is you need a clear understanding of the context to interpret things and that is NOT possible consistently by ?tossing coins?; or more so there is less chance of getting the ?best fit? consistently then if one uses questions to elicit a hexagram.

(37) Given all of the above, we can refine the focus to line PAIRS in a hexagram etc etc etc. LOTS of work here, lots to be explored and identified.

(38) Note that I went further but came up against some five-phase issues but in turn find that five phase is like King Wen, it takes the structures of Fh Hsi and distorts by adding a cycle thus five phase is FOUR PAIRS:

PRODUCTION - wind, thunder
DISTRIBUTION - fire (External), water (internal)
FILTRATION - earth, mountain
EXCHANGE - lake, heaven

DYNAMICS makes us turn water into consumption and move it to the end of the cycle.

(See the Five Phase I Ching material - link in point 27 above)

In King Wen compass the order is of five phase pairs but with mountain moved from its position next to earth to the end of the cycle. This is interesting in that mountain also reflects a gateway - IOW internal distribution, consumption, water, 'leads to' something else 'inside' that reflects a gateway of some form. Note that mountain is a FILTER in that it is our internal source of quality control etc.

Chris.

 

[misterwu]

Thank you very much, Chris. I will digest for a while.

best wishes

Stephen

 

[misterwu]

Hi Chris

Digesting with great interest.

First question: what about the "symmetrical hexagrams" where "swapping trigrams" makes no difference? (1 and 2, 27 and 28, 29 and 30, 61 and 62) Are they both context/stimulus and response? How do they pair in this system?

best wishes

Stephen

 

[Sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

(25) We can sense this intuitively in that when we seek out and use the IC we are putting ourselves into yin mode, trying to integrate ourselves and the IC to work as a whole to produce a reading that is an exaggeration, a particular from the general; we are not confident in ourselves, we seek an answer THROUGH another medium and as such are ?egalitarian? in focus and the IC is the universal whose advice we seek.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Chris, you must be aging gracefully (at least your brain is...)

I actually understood (perhaps 98%) of what you said in those 4 parts. When I put a finger on the other 2% I'll ask you.

Are you sure you don't have a direct connection between your brain and the computer?

Luis

PS: also, are you a speed reader??

 

[heylise]

Hope I don't add too much to a thread I hardly could open.

Stephen: 1) Why do you sequence the omens as you do? Seems to me seeing the two fan lao as within the two crosslines of the orginal pair is more effective?

1) I am not sure if I understand exactly what you mean. I start from the fan yao (is fan lao a typo or another name?) because that one is very obvious in its meaning, more so than the crosslines. Although it could be that after some time of using them, that might change. A reason is also that the fan yao are mentioned in very old texts: "qian its gou", "kun its fu", and then in the resulting hexagrams the same reference to the primary hex. It connects the two lines. About the crosslines there are no old texts, as far as I know, other than rather mathematical speculations.

I have not really a sequence. The square can be started at any point. I have put the original line you got as an oracle (21.2) at the beginning, and paired it with its fan yao. And then combined them with the other two fan-yao.

For the square of 33.2 I have searched for the four different 'ways' of the common theme, but for the others I have not yet done that. There are so many squares, I decided to first find the themes, and later to find the four 'corners'. So far I have only one complete:

http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/structures/squares/square19.2-33.2.htm

Stephen: 2) What is an "oppositional square"? How do you get it? How does it work?

In the 33.2 square, the theme was 'having', or rather the attitude towards 'having'. Then I looked at 19.2, its opposite, and the theme turned out to be about relaxing, doing things 'easy'.

Hex.19 is the opposite of 33, and 24 of 44, etc.

Stephen: 3) How do you get from the images you give for the lines involved to your interpretations?

It can be seen on the url above. The line has a meaning, together with its fanyao, very closely related meanings. Same for the other two fanyao of the same square. Then I 'stop thinking', and a common theme for all four emerges. As if a ?landscape? reveals itself, and the four winds each give a different feeling.

It depends also on the line-places. Line 2 has to do with human affairs (second line of bottom trigram) which are essentially relational affairs, and with earth, tangible things, touching, handling (2 lowest lines of hex). Line 5 also with human/relations (line 2 of top trigram) and with heaven: spirit, mind, intangible things (2 upper lines of hex).

33.2 Withdraw. This means to withdraw towards what is yours or yourself, rather than away from something. Line 2 is about ?holding on? to things (?things? can be anything one can possess, like objects, ideas, talents etc).

44.2 Coupling, also ?having? something, but only if one is able to ?leave it as it is?. Only then it will be this particular object. Annex it and it will not exist as such anymore. Always the big problem in marriages: where did the girl/boy go I fell in love with?

43.5 Resolution. In order to have or accomplish something, you will have to make ?the effort to get it?. Here it is not the thing itself, but the resolution to get it.

34.5 Great Vigor. One can only possess when one is not possessed, so stay in charge. ?Let go? all fears of losing it, or regret of having lost it. Needing makes having impossible. As long as you need, you don?t even have yourself and your assets. This too is a spiritual side of possessing.

LiSe

 

[maryb]

Synchronicity being "real" doesn't prove the existence of an afterlife.

Nor does the existence of an afterlife prove the existence of a Supreme Deity.

Nor does the existence of a Supreme Deity prove the existence of a Creator.

Nor does the existence of Synchronicity prove the existence of non-material intelligences that can be communicated with by humans...

or any combination of the above...

These different categories of beings, senses, and states of being are often conflated because we're used to thinking of them all being in the same "place" of "not here"; and that "not here place" is perceived by some of the people some of the time.

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Stephen,
>
> Hi Chris
>
> Digesting with great interest.
>
> First question: what about the "symmetrical hexagrams" where
> "swapping trigrams" makes no difference? (1 and 2, 27 and
> 28, 29 and 30, 61 and 62) Are they both context/stimulus and
> response? How do they pair in this system?
>

? Firstly I think you mean 1,2,29,30,51,52,57,58! but to address the octet you have given above:

For 27, 28 and 61, 62, 61 swaps to give 28 - IOW a context of yielding, sofening, 'inner truth', elicits a response of being prepared to go beyond what is required, to go the extra distance (as in 61 Judge standing up for an injustice etc)

In reverse, a context of excess elicits a response on reflection on that issue etc (28 maps to excess that is reflected in a negative sense of excess but also in a positive sense of going beyond the normal to aid someone/thing etc - this also allows for models of decadence where the excess in the context 'softens' the inner core of self to become 'slack' in behaviour)

62 swaps to 27 - thus a context of exaggerating traditions (the intent being to keep the collective together even if past the 'use by/best before' date) elicits a response of hungering for more - and so the warning about being open to any 'rubbish'.

27 swaps to 62 - thus the demand for, the need for 'brain food', will elicit exaggerations of perspectives, over promotion of what has been learnt as if the 'true' path etc., little things get exaggerated to be considered 'important'.

Since in IC+ trigrams have different qualities depending on their position (upper the qualities are driven by the aristocratic context and so are more proactive, lower the qualities are driven by the egalitarian context and so are more reactive etc) so swapping is not an issue for hexagrams of same trigrams.

Thus swapping the trigrams of 01 gives us 01 but the aristocratic version is 'singlemindedness' whereas the egalitarian version is softer, reflects 'perserverence'.

Thus, a context singlmindedness will elicit perseverence as a context of perseverence will elicit singlmindedness.

IOW a context of singlemindedness will influence someone/something to persevere in their activity. A context of perseverence will cause the development in that someone/something of singlemindedness. These are all classic examples of instincts being set-off by context; context pushes. When we move to the development of consciousness so we move to an ability to change the context (e.g. introduce the opposite to 'neutralise' the change influence etc - it all becomes a balancing act. The ancient texts are more reactive and focus on recognising that there are inevitable processes and as an individual to place oneself in the context that will 'best fit')

The qualities in same trigram hexagrams are different enough to give a range of expressions for 01, as for any hexagram. e.g. in hexagram 23 we have a range of qualities from 'housekeeping' to 'high priest/priestess' depending on context. They all do the same thing but housekeeping is less expressive than high-priest/priestess. This gets into the IDM material where the generic form of trigrams of 23 is 'contractive bonding in a context of contractive blending'. ANYTHING that elicits these generic feelings will 'fit' to 23.

Thus the quality control of mountain, here in upper position and so a focus on discernment, is in a context of lower position earth, and so devotion. BUT the alternative patterns are the absolute darkness of earth into which is being 'sucked' the last elements of structure (and so the notion of collapse etc)

To go back to same trigram hexagrams, for water we have the egalitarian, yin, nature of containment as compared to the more aristocratic version, the yang version, nature of control.

Thus a context of containement elicits a sense of control, controlling (boundary around what we want to control, protect, preserve). Swap the trigrams and a context of control elicts a sense of being contained. The qualties are subtle but clear enough to show the differences.

Thus ANY hexagram in a containtment context will force change in that hexagram to 'adapt' by a focus on control. This is GENERAL changes, general adaptations, to context. The DETAILS are reflected in which lines change in a hexagram such that subtle variations in expression, qualitiative differences, are expressed in the hexagram under change.

There are lots of 'level issues' in all of this in that as dodecagrams are univerals for the 16+ million, and hexagrams universals for dodecagrams, and trigrams universals for hexagrams and yin/yang lines universals for trigrams, so each level will reflect local 'nuances' as well as the general set of same rules across all levels.

Chris.

 

[misterwu]

Thank you, Chris. Yes, of course I did mean what you call the "octet" 1,2,29,30,51,52,57,58. Could you tell me how "trigram swapping" works here? I believe I am getting an idea of the tactical system. And I also see that much of your previous description of "culture" or phase shifts fits several "axial age" periods that I know about, including Warring States and Hellenistic Mediterranean cultures.

I really appreciate the information. Though I do not always agree with the interpretations, the structure itself seems to me very valuable and I have already experimented with it in consultations. I may be able to suggest places where it could "deepen" several existing interpretive techniques, including my own.

best wishes

Stephen

 

[misterwu]

Hi again, Chris

Whoops, you DID cover this in your previous message. I am assimilating bit by bit. Would you be interested in reactions to this material and its use? I will certainly work with it and include it in my own overall approach. My first impression (and this is of course from my own perspective) is that 1) it adds a real focus to what I call the "crossline omens" and their specific "contexts or goals"; 2) that it adds a very interesting perspective overall on individual hexagram dynamics; 3) that it deepens my perception of what I myself see as Pairs through the underlying pair that is context for the two; 4) it gives a much better idea of what a trigram signifies as "upper (hui)" and "lower" (zhen); 5) it yields the first satisfactory explanation I have ever seen of what occurs in the "paired" hexagrams that swap trigrams - this has been a bit of a mystery to me. I feel comfortable with my sense of rotational and symmetrical pairs, but have never seen the network or pathway that opens the third kind of relation.

I feel what you are doing here offers a brand new kind of xiangshu tool that can provide real crossover to "word meanings and moral behaviour."

I also feel that your sense of what the hexgrams "mean," and thus how the interpretations work, could benefit from taking on some of the more mythical significance of the figures. 62 is a case in point.

I am sure I will have a few more questions as I assimilate this further, if you have the patience to answer them. Thanks for a real new persepctive on a significant part of my own sense of Change. I will certainly try to add this perspective to my own work and give you credit in public for what I have understood. The mistakes will of course be my own.

best wishes

Stephen

 

[yidiot]

gee, I come back thirsty for blood and youre all chums already...
Why doenst anyone stand up to their beliefs anymore? (and yes, I mean doenst!)
Put up a fight, willya?

vraiment...

 

[anon1]

Ah Monsieur, ou Madame, ou les autre.

It is terrible? Awful? Unforgivable?

When understanding breaks out like some disease? ughh!

Never mind? it will pass?

I can?t resist this? it is the time? forgive me

 

[jte]

Maryb -

"Synchronicity being "real" doesn't prove ..."

Very true. No proof for the unfalsifiable.

That doesn't worry me much, though...

"Non-material intelligences..."



- Jeff

 

[misterwu]

Hi

Here is a first example of how, in my opinion, Chris?s methods can work very valuably within another system. It is directly relevant to our discussions of what the Zhigua/Relating Figure might be doing in a particular reading. I freely admit this adds a lot to my understanding. I have tried it out in several situations. It works.

The reading here is 7, 6/4, 6/5 > 47. This is one of those times that the connection of the Relating Figure to the reading seems confusing or problematic. If we take it on a simple ?predictive level,? we see ?Confinement or Oppression? as the outcome of the actions described by the lines. Seems to me, given the nature of the line images, this does not work. However, when we do the ?trigram swap? with the Relating Figure to sense its stimulus, context or ?best fit,? we see 60, Articulating, in action. There is here, and indeed throughout the reading (pair 7 to 8), a movement of the ?water? or Ghost River trigram from lower to upper. Chris would say this is a ?refining move? from ?containment? to ?control?. I would differentiate it a bit more, saying the ?containment? also reflects the fear and danger we feel when we confront the Ghost River and its power to dissolve shape and structure, the fear of death. With 60, we see a move to ?articulate the new ritual year? out of the dissolution of the old self seen in 59. This gives us a great context for the Relating Figure: the inquirer is confronting an oppressive (overdeveloped and decadent aristocratic) system and the drive is to replace that system with a new set of values and structures that more fully articulate a real relation to the ?flow? of the Water and the Way. A "death" experience is necessary as transition, a death of the old self and the old way. This is reinforced when we consider that 7:8 is a major site in the Change of the Mandate of Heaven, a history that, as Steve Marshall has shown, is literally inscribed here. And it, too, in the 7:8 pair, is seen as a move of the Ghost River or Rushing Water trigram from lower to upper. This fit perfectly in the reading. And, when we looked at the Karmic Nodes, a whole series of experiences came up directly relevant to this theme. The perspective released a great sense of the deeper actions and pathways of Change in the particular situation.

I am going to try now to see how this perspective adds to and differentiates the action of what I call the Crossline Omens and our sense of the dynamic of a hexagram, how it might not eliminate the ?mythic sense,? but actually help to articulate it further and, perhaps, be more locally differentiated itself.

Best wishes

Stephen

 

[candid]

Yidiot, you are the paprika on my celery.

please pass the salt...

 

[misterwu]

Hi LiSe

Sorry if this one is too long, but I did not see any way to cut it up.

Thank you for the message and explanations. (Yes, fan lao is a typo; it is indeed fan yao).

I am not sure what you mean about the reference to ?old texts.? Kidder Smith alerted me to the use of ?zhi? to identify hexagrams through their relation to other figures, particularly in Ts?o Chuan (Cuo juan?) ? thus kun (its) fu or ?the kun belonging to fu? - and I checked the texts there. I do not know of other discussions, but this is my own ignorance.

But in any case, I think we are talking about the same structures, ?squares? that set up a relation between two interconnected lines of a pair (19.2 20.5) by circulating the material through the fan yao, the lines of the pair generated by the two lines in question (here 24.2 and 23.5). Perhaps I can say something that makes the reasons that I do what I do a little less puzzling, frivolous or bizarre.

I come at this from a different angle, having first become really aware of it through an exploration of the interconnections of what I call ?rotational pairs? and noticing how often the words and phrases displayed by these lines connected, literally and thematically (great example is 63.3 and 64.4).

Then I searched for a ?structure? that, to my mind, might express something of the connections between the 4 lines or sets of images involved. I talked about this in an old post: the alchemical square Jung used to describe the complex communications between the ?conscious? and ?unconscious? aspects of the alchemist and his/her mystic sister or brother. Jung used this to talk about all kinds of ?transference? or exchange of meaning. To me, it fit, particularly as a pathway that circulates ?meaning? or communication between two ?conscious poles? through the great ?mediating figures? of the unconscious, the anima and the animus, the ?inner man? and the ?inner woman.? From here came the idea that the two lines in question (19.2 and 20.5) have a ?hidden pathway? that connects them, seen in the two fan yao. Some Daoist friends liked this, too, seeing this pathway as a kind of dark or hidden learning, the ?path through the unconscious? rather than around it.

So, what the Crossline Omens are is an attempt to make this pathway directly accessible in a particular situation, giving it as directly as images rather than abstracting meanings ? though of course I am highly ?interpretive?, both in the translation itself and in my sense of the importance of the ?symmetrical pairs? that project special ?zones? seen as irregularities (bian) in the regular generation of pairs (hua) across the matrix of a ?rotational pair.? To me, they alert us to the possibilities for real transformation in a given situation and ?circulate us? back through two of the ?great engines? that power the matrix of Change. They are an image of ?negentropic change.?

What I am seeing now is that Chris?s sense of the so-called trigram swap can yield a real sense of the dynamis behind each side of the crossline. I feel this can add a lot to our sense of how these ?squares? work, what their ?stimulus or context? is.

Now, I myself tend to be a bit suspicious of the ?opposition? relation, even though it became a stalwart of later (Confucian) analysis. This is probably because what they call ?opposition? to me characterizes what I see as the dynamic relation between the members of a symmetrical pair - ?total conversion.? This is indeed one of my ?hobby-horses,? and it reveals my own fantasy of history and the ?wars? within the tradition, but I feel the focus on a single hexagram and the line relations within it is somehow a reflection of the great Confucian project to ?de-mythologize? the world, to eliminate contact with the guishen and focus us on social ethics and a particular morality. In the same way, turning ?conversion? into ?opposition? reduces or diminishes its significance.

I am certainly not trying to say this is the only way to look at things, and, perhaps it is not too ?sober,? but, to me at least, it is exciting in that it releases a whole set of possibilities that are held in check by many other perspectives. And it seeks to make these possibilities directly accessible in an individual situation or reading. Certainly, as Kevin remarked, we do not use everything all the time. But in my experience, when we need to go deeper into a ?change? this is a very effective way to do so.

Many thanks for your work and what you have given to our sense of these ?magic squares.? It certainly has helped me both to understand them and to articulate more clearly what I myself am up to. I am going to look closer at the ?oppositions? to see what I have missed. Seems to me this is something valuable I have neglected due to my own prejudice or ?pre-judging.? It might give me a clearer idea of something I have too easily pushed aside.

Best wishes

Stephen

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Stephen,

Thanks for comments. Glad to see you getting something out of the material. You went on to write:

"I also feel that your sense of what the hexgrams "mean," and thus how the interpretations work, could benefit from taking on some of the more mythical significance of the figures. 62 is a case in point."

The point with IC+ is a focus on the general qualities of methodology of the species rather than some local interpretation; some specialisation.

The focus in IDM is on what method, as a SPECIES, is used to derive meaning that, filtering up through the hierarchy in brain/mind, gets translated into words that upon reception filter down the hierarchy of mind/brain to elicit 'resonance' and so meaning.

EACH specialisation will develop its own lexicon that ensures the specialisation maintains its identity in competition with all of the others, but the core qualities, are constants.

(specialisations are as such, universals such that we find the interesting association of universals with LOCAL conditions, from which, given the creation and collapse of these local icons, SOME stay as universals - such as the IC - across different social structures)

The dynamics of deriving meaning from swapping or rotating lines, trigrams, hexagrams, has nothing to do with the IC in particular but more with the properties and methods of recursion, the GENERAL from which the IC has emerged as a specialisation.

This does not mean that the perspective is on the IC developing in a formal manner, more it developed 'piecemeal' but would always reflect the manner in which we humans, our brains, categorise etc and so the whole pattern would emerge over time.

WITHIN the IC we then have specialisations as in the different translations and interpretations and so more hierarchy. The LOCAL conditions of the IC's core development reflect the rationalisations of those trying to wrestle with something they lacked information upon - and so stories, legends, and myths develop PRIOR to the slow plod of Science etc., that gives us access to what is behind the words, the rationalisations made over time to validate what was being felt/sensed.

The core sense of meaning stems from the species perspective, there is no need for crediting the material to some 'outside source' etc.

Thus hexagram 62 in the core IDM focus is on a context of contractive bonding that translates as we move 'up' the hierarchy to a specialist IC expression of self-restraint, blocking, stopping.

The text is of expansive binding that translates as a we move up the hierarchy to a specialist IC expression of awareness, of covering issues re realising the 'big picture' (and step that follows after the enlightenment element, the 'sudden' lifting, the shock, the 'new', that comes with the trigram of thunder in the lowe position.)

ANYTHING that maps to these very general expressions, these FEELINGS, will reflect the dynamics of 62 and as such find 62 as the 'best fit'. The feelings focus allows a more direct association of moment with classifaction, we get close to the immediate nature our species-nature has with a moment prior to all of the words that aid consciousness is spelling things out- but that spelling is done LOCALLY.

From the core feelings we have swapping associations to 28 and mappings to every other hexagram to reflect some aspect or another, but still in general. Some examples:

62 Preponderance of the Small
Portraying, Exaggerating, Acting
In a context of self-restraint we utilise (sudden) awareness.

"HSIAO KUO -

HSIAO : little, common, unimportant; adapting to what crosses your path; ability to move in harmonious relation to the vicissitudes of life;...
KUO : go beyond, pass by, pass over; excessive, transgress, error, fault." ERANOS p647



Trigrams : self-restraint (bottom), awareness (top) : with/from self-restraint comes awareness. [thunder over mountain]

In the binary sequence hexagram 62 pairs with hexagram 56.

This pairing reflects an overall focus on issues of establishing and maintaining loyalty, be it in maintaining loyality in a distant land of many attractions (hexagram 56), or in the need to exaggerate the traditions of a collective to aid in maintaining the collective's structure (hexagram 62).

In the binary sequence hexagram 62 opposes hexagram 61.

At the LOCAL level we are dealing with an octet of hexagrams with the MOUNTAIN trigram as base. In this sequence hexagram 53, the focus upon slowly maturing, opposes hexagram 62, where the focus is on exaggerations, portraying. More so, the exaggerated sense of overplaying traditions to maintain the coherence of the collective is reflected in a more balanced format through the focus on, as well as recognising the consequences of, maturing.

In the traditional sequence hexagram 62 pairs with hexagram 61.

In the traditional sequence hexagram 62 opposes hexagram 03.

Just as hexagram 03 reflects the 'birth' of something, so hexagram 62 focuses on re-birth through the exaggeration of traditions to aid in maintaining social structure, to give a collective a 'kick' to keep it going.

The generic properties of hexagram 62 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 56 with the generic properties of hexagram 30.
A combination of a focus on loyalty (56) with a focus upon guidence and a setting of a direction, an ideology, (30) is reflected in issues of maitaining the integrity of a collective through exaggeration of traditions.

In the variations on a theme sequence, hexagram 62 complements hexagram 55.

These particulars of 62 are enhanced further when we realise that, from the species-level perspective, each moment elicits the WHOLE of the I Ching, all 64 hexagrams (or dodecagrams etc, depending on what scale you wish to operate from).

Thus when we divine etc so we elicit not 62 or 62 with moving lines, but a sequence of all of the hexagrams sorted 'best fit' to 'worst fit' with 62 as the 'best fit'.

Our consciousness, being particulars oriented, being PARTS focused, will focus on this 'spectrum' of hexagrams but at the highest energy end, the 'best fit', and in doing so will ignore, filter out, all of the other hexagrams in that ordering and in doing so impoverish the 'whole' picture that needs those 'lesser lights' to aid in getting the 'whole' picture.

Thus, in the sense of swapping/rotating to derive context hexagrams etc we are in fact working with three 64-hexagram sequences (1) the context eliciting change in (2) the user's sequence that is being forced to change into (3)the 'inevitable' response to (1) regardless of whats 'in between' i.e. (2). (IOW, the hexagram in the 'middle' will be FORCED to change into the hexagram that is the RESPONSE to the stimulus, GIVEN TIME, UNLESS some action is made to go against that 'distortion')

(for more on these 64-hexagram sequences etc see

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icmatrix.html, for the 'proactive' IC that works off questions to elicit meaning see

http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/proact4.html)

The properties and methods of recursion allow for all of this and so our discoveries are not IC sourced but more species sourced, neurocognitive processes operating in a structured manner to filter up and be expressed by consciousness, and so PUSH consciousness.

BUT, with consciousness comes the ability to understand the dynamics of recursion and so refine past aspects of IC, put them in less specialist terms to understand in general and then introduce the specialist to understand LOCAL particulars - such as assocatate mythologies etc.

IOW I dont need to understand Chinese terms to understand what is going on, but I can retain Chinese terms to maintain an aire of 'mystery' etc etc and so LOCAL precision not experienced in other LOCAL contexts - BUT that is specialist details and so not of interest at the level of the GENERAL.

As such IDM/IC+ acts as a GUIDE to refinement, there is no replace of something, more aid in refining necessary LOCAL interpretations, specialisations.

Furthermore, IDM itself cannot become specialist in that doing so it loses its generality focus, blend, bond, bound, bind get relabelled and IDM 'becomes' IC+ or MBTI etc etc etc.

The main focus is on being AWARE that the specialisations are METAPHORS and so are not the territory, just good maps ;-)

There is as such no need to focus on the associated mythology of the IC to understand it from a species-nature perspective but the fact that there is 3000+ years of mythology derived from consciousness can make what is being delt with 'interesting' from a specialist perspective - but a lot of that mythology, being mythology, needs to be clearly understood as metaphor.

Chris.

 

[heylise]

Answer to Karcher's mail

The reference to ?old texts.?:
The Zuo Zhuan, same text I am referring to. I am just as ignorant as you are, or worse. I see many things in your texts, which I did not know or of which I did not realize the implications.

I am beginning to see more and more what you are doing. It is not 'puzzling, frivolous or bizarre' to me anymore. I was looking in the wrong places to find out why you said things. Trying to find a left-brain reason for every shen or river. Searching in the other half now.

[SK: the alchemical square Jung used to describe the complex communications between the ?conscious? and ?unconscious? aspects of the alchemist and his/her mystic sister or brother. Jung used this to talk about all kinds of ?transference? or "exchange of meaning". . . the ?path through the unconscious? rather than around it.]

Can you tell me in which post, or how long ago? This interests me a lot!

?negentropic change.? Searched in the thesauri: does it mean towards efficiency by becoming more complex?
I am still pondering your idea of the special 'zones of transformation'. I like it but have to find my own understanding about them yet.

For 'conversion' I found a meaning like transforming, but with opposition I mean the natural partner. Like a woman is not a 'converted' man, but something very different and yet of the same kind. So the 'dynamic relation' plays an important part. I think what we want to say is not that different, once we settle about meanings of words, or understand what the other is saying.
My English is far from perfect, so I probably use sometimes a rather crude word when there exists a much finer definition.
To me the opposites are two sides of one thing, like yin and yang belong together as opposites, without opposition there could not be a balance. Strong without anything soft is not really strong, it will be rigid, prone to breaking. So opposites do not fight or exclude each other, on the contrary.

[SK: I am certainly not trying to say this is the only way to look at things?]

It never felt like you did. I like 'other' views, they make the world interesting, and help a lot with what one does oneself.

LiSe

 

[candid]

"Strong without anything soft is not really strong, it will be rigid, prone to breaking. So opposites do not fight or exclude each other, on the contrary."

Beautiful!

 

[chrislofting]

Stephen, some additonal data on 62 to show the scope of what we are dealing with in the IC:

When we focus on the properties and methods of recursion so we discover a form of logic of relationships as in

X is to Y as A is to B

We can derive for each hexagram pair of 'opposites' the range of qualities from one to the other expressed by the full sequence of hexagrams. Thus for hexagram 62 we have a path from 62 to 61 here represented as a matrix of octets, read right to left, bottom to top:

61 60 41 19 10 58 38 54
09 05 26 11 01 43 14 34
42 03 27 24 25 17 21 51
37 63 22 36 13 49 30 55
59 29 04 07 06 47 64 40
57 48 18 46 44 28 59 32
20 08 23 02 12 45 35 16
53 39 52 15 33 31 56 62

What this gives us is such mapping as:

62 is to 56 as 62 is to 61 (the relationship is controlled by the top line)
31 is to 33 as 62 is to 61
15 is to 52 as 62 is to 61
etc etc to
19 is to 41 as 62 is to 61
60 is to 61 as 62 is to 61

OR focusing only on 62/61 then the ordering is 62 is to X as 62 is to 61 but with increasing distinctions in the differences. IOW the ordering reflects increase in qualitative differences from 62 is to 56 to 31 to 33 to 15 to 52 etc etc until as we get to the top so we have 62 is to 19, 41, 60, and finally 61. The sequence thus reflects the quality change between that represented as 62 and that represented by 61.

How did we derive this matrix? by working backwards. Huh!?

In the NATURAL derivation of the binary sequence from yin/yang, integrate/differentiate, we end up with an ordering of hexagrams from 000000 to 111111 IOW from 02 to 01. The RELATIONSHIPS of all hexagrams in this sequence reflect the relationships of 01 to 02 to varying degrees. E.g. the relationship of the pair 01, 43 is as that of 01 to 02 but not as severe in difference, the difference is subtle but still there and is reflected by changes in the top line only.

If we ROTATE the hexagrams in this binary order we get the order of the 64 changing line patterns in each hexagram of 01 and 02. e.g. 02, 24, 07 etc for 02 and 01, 44, 13 etc for 01.

To derive the sequence of 'logic of relationships' for all of the other hexagrams, since we cannot derive them 'naturally' we have to work backwards:

(1) using recursion applied to a hexagram bottom up, we derive the changing line patterns, e.g. for hexagrams 62/61 we will derive this sequence (expressed as a matrix):

61 59 42 20 09 57 37 53
10 06 25 12 01 44 13 33
41 04 27 23 26 18 22 52
38 64 21 35 14 50 30 56
60 29 03 08 05 48 63 39
58 47 17 45 43 28 49 31
19 07 24 02 11 46 36 15
54 40 51 16 34 32 55 62

Thus no changing lines is 62, change the base line to get 55 etc all the way up to change all lines to get 61.

(2) we ROTATE the hexagrams in this sequence and they will give us a sequence dealing with the qualitative differences expressed by analogy to the other hexagrams. That sequence is given at the beginning of this email for 62/61 pair and we seem to be able to map-out the qualities of 62/61 in fine details. The ability to do this is due to recursion.

For other material re these patterns etc and range of qualities BETWEEN hexagrams as well as WITHIN hexagrams see such pages as:

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/exaggerate.html

ALL of this material comes from recursion where our brains will derive the qualities we use in the IC etc. There is nothing 'Chinese' in any of this. The Chinese element is in the LOCAL relabelling of qualities combined with the ancient consciousness not understanding the 'Science' and so forced to describe things using anthropomorphisms and so stories turn into legends and on into myths. etc.

Note that we can SWAP the trigrams in these orderings and so derive additional sequences of context material etc etc. There is a LOT of work to be done with this sort of material and it is material that can be translated into any language without the need to make references to local, i.e. ancient chinese, mythology etc. The point being that through analysis of our neurocognitive processes as a SPECIES we can set down the FOUNDATIONS of our being and ground consciousness in that foundation. FROM there come the specialisations but we are always grounded by the generalisation - when the specialisation 'falls' so the specialists fall onto their species-nature and so our fall is broken by that nature - what we share with all other members of our species.

Chris.

 

[misterwu]

Hi Chris

This message and a response to LiSe are going to be my last postings. I am simply swamped by other work. Though I still do not accept the priority and centrality of your system and its language, by using Occam?s Razor I feel that I can take something away from this encounter that is of real worth. Thanks, too, for your clear and interesting descriptions. Whatever you are doing in your presentation process, all I can say is the writing is much clearer, less frenetic and more accessible. Bravo and thank you.

Best wishes

Stephen

 

[misterwu]

Hi LiSe

Some answers to questions.


I am beginning to see more and more what you are doing. It is not 'puzzling, frivolous or bizarre' to me anymore. I was looking in the wrong places to find out why you said things. Trying to find a left-brain reason for every shen or river. Searching in the other half now.

Yes! I love it!

[SK: the alchemical square Jung used to describe the complex communications between the ?conscious? and ?unconscious? aspects of the alchemist and his/her mystic sister or brother. Jung used this to talk about all kinds of ?transference? or "exchange of meaning". . . the ?path through the unconscious? rather than around it.]

Can you tell me in which post, or how long ago? This interests me a lot!

It was in the first version of Steps of Yu, where, I think, it was more or less labeled ?psychobabble.? Jung developed this in The Psychology of the Transference, one of his most successful attempts to use alchemical symbolism to talk about deep psychic processes.

Imagine a square with a character or voice at each corner. Lower two corners are two ?conscious egos? or identities, the alchemist and his/her ?mystical sister or brother.? Jung used this to talk about the alchemy of relationships and it involves genders, but the genders can be seen as non-literal. On the upper corners are the ?contrasexual archetypes?, anima and animus, that act as mediators to the ?world of the great unconscious. In a conscious ?male? there will be an inner female, the anima. In a conscious female, there will be an inner male, the animus. These two ?announce? unconscious contents that desire access and mediate them to consciousness. They are the ?personifications? of our imagination.

There are several paths in the square:

1) Ego to ego (lower horizontal): conscious communication.

2) Ego to anima or animus (the two verticals): inner dialogue

3) Anima to conscious male and animus to conscious female (the diagonals): both inspiration and unconscious projection of negativity.

5) Anima direct to animus and vice versa, without conscious mediation (upper horizontal): deep exchange with ?another? through non-conscious or irrational processes.

To make a long story short, I see the two interconnected lines of a given pair (1:6, 2;5, 3:4, 4:3, 5:2, 6:1) as occupying the lower horizontal: the two ?conscious? identities, yang/inspiration and yin/realization. I would read the fan yao of the lines in question as occupying the upper horizontal, similarly yang and yin = anima and animus.

So, the ?path? of a crossline omen would pass from one ?conscious? pole, through the two unconscious poles (the unconscious or hidden aspects) and emerge at the other conscious pole. This, to me, is a good description of a ?hidden pathway? and the mediation of the two great poles of the ?hidden world.? If the fan yao are in linear sequence, we see a straightforward progression around the path; if they are reversed, we first reach out on the diagonal to the hidden other, cross to the opposite pole, then across that diagonal to the conscious other, a kind of ?réculer pour mieux sauter.?

I see the kind of exchange in a ?symmetrical pair? as a direct exchange on the level of the upper horizontal, a ?deep conversion? or conversation that occurs at the level of basic (virtually unconscious) categories.

I see a ?transformational zone? as a structure or shape of the time that pulls us back into one of these ?deep dialogues?, circulates us through it (in a ?negentropic? fashion), then sends us out transformed in some fundamental way.

So: ?negentropic change.? Searched in the thesauri: does it mean towards efficiency by becoming more complex?

It is a funny word, a neologism (though not my own), used by both Jung and Niels Bohr. Negentropy is seen as the opposite of entropy: a process that recharges a system with energy through contact with ?archetypal levels? of psyche/world.

For 'conversion' I found a meaning like transforming, but with opposition I mean the natural partner. Like a woman is not a 'converted' man, but something very different and yet of the same kind. So the 'dynamic relation' plays an important part. I think what we want to say is not that different, once we settle about meanings of words, or understand what the other is saying.
My English is far from perfect, so I probably use sometimes a rather crude word when there exists a much finer definition.

To me the opposites are two sides of one thing, like yin and yang belong together as opposites, without opposition there could not be a balance. Strong without anything soft is not really strong, it will be rigid, prone to breaking. So opposites do not fight or exclude each other, on the contrary.

Yes. I use ?conversion? in the context of the symmetrical pairs simply to mean that to get from one to the other you have to ?convert? each line into its contrary. I then see this as having significance: it means that the hexagrams in question represent a ?zone of radical conversion on all levels? where special things happen.

I did not mean to imply that a woman is a ?converted? man, nor vice versa. Rather that the ?zone or relation? between man and woman is a place where real transformation or conversion of psychic contents can occur. This is what Jung was talking about in his square. There is a seed or inner part of the other hidden within each; each participates in the identity of the other in some way without losing their conscious identity. That is the ?magic? and the ?transference;? it is what makes relationships into an alchemical vessel. I really need to use your viewpoint to look more at opposition in the ordinary hexagrams, rather than rejecting it wholesale as a Confucian plot.

Thanks for this and for your understanding.

Best wishes

Stephen

 

[misterwu]

Farewell to all for a while. Thank you for your patience and the new things I learned here. If nothing else, they certainly helped me to further differentiate what I was talking about in the Steps of Yu.

Best wishes

Stephen

 

[megabbobby]

pretty good stuff meester

 

[midaughter]

The scholars of recent generations who delight in discoursing on the Yi (i.e., the Yi Jing, Book of Changes) without taking what was just said into consideration, those who pay sole attention to written discourses, not only tear [these realities] apart and produce incoherent [nonsense] that is without any basis, but also what they say pertaining to incorporeal patterns and numerological regularities all force [irrelevant factors] into apparent relationships and hang groundless explanations on seeming connections, and they seem to believe that these [imaginings] have come from the minds and the wisdom of the sages.
Yi Xue Qi-meng - 11th Century

 

[lenardthefast]

Hear, hear and well-said, Sun.

Namaste,

Leonard

 

[chrislofting]

> By Sunpuerh (Sunpuerh) on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 11:05
> pm:
>
> The scholars of recent generations who delight in
> discoursing on the Yi (i.e., the Yi Jing, Book of Changes)
> without taking what was just said into consideration, those
> who pay sole attention to written discourses, not only tear
> [these realities] apart and produce incoherent [nonsense]
> that is without any basis, but also what they say pertaining
> to incorporeal patterns and numerological regularities all
> force [irrelevant factors] into apparent relationships and
> hang groundless explanations on seeming connections, and
> they seem to believe that these [imaginings] have come from
> the minds and the wisdom of the sages.
> Yi Xue Qi-meng - 11th Century
>
>

Oh look, we moved from a 10th century BC perspective to an 11th century AD perspective. How thrilling! ;-)

The above can be interpreted as "the interpretations of the traditional IC", the manner of derivations etc 'hang groundless explanations on seeming connections' etc etc IOW the traditional material has no idea what it is dealing with. It is riddled with what can NOW be considered as unnecessary mumbo jumbo simply because the times lacked the precision of Science in development, anthropomorphism ruled (but then still does in that WE are the measure), the figurative ruled, and the patterns were all associated with the actions of the gods and of mind (as in idealism, the spiritual).

The ROOTS of the IC are in the neurocognitive processes of our species and of all neuron-dependent species and as such are rooted in materialism, not idealism. Idealism DEVELOPS FROM materialism and in doing so we create our own hybrid universe, a mix of idealism/materialism, the application of the dichotomy to itself and so recursive processes and out pops -- small world networks, aristocratic(idealism)/egalitarian(materialism) - all mapped to the binary ordering of the IC as a template.

In this mix there is a dynamic of yin to yang and the dimension upon which this dynamic functions is 'fractal' in form since it is derived from recursion - all parts contain the whole - such that there is development within a part as if it was a whole and that part becomes one's "own little world", a specialisation amongst billions.

Understand how we as a SPECIES derive meaning and you will start to understand the whole, IOW go DEEP and review the core rather than all of these specialisations; every IC translation/interpretation will contain the core meanings sourced in our species-nature and as such THAT IC is the core overall, the Species I Ching where it serves as a template for all else.

The issue in doing that, in going beneath the expressions, is the stress it can elicit in some who take things too literally(the IC scholars ;-)), and the stress in trying to deal with a general when our consciousness is so prone to focusing on particulars.

Chris.

 

[midaughter]

Then map out clarvoyance, intuition, morality, and kindness...study good manners, control the ego and the mind, emulate humility.