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candid

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I have a question.. *gathers wood* .. which I thought might be something fun? *throws on kindling* ? for us to talk about?. *lights campfire*

What is the most valuable lesson that you have learned from the I-Ching?

Remember, this isn?t a seminar or any kind of test. Its just a campfire where friends gather to talk about ?stuff?.
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hilary

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*drawing up a log*
Terrific question!

I can think of a couple of kinds of answer: what I learn from the practice of divining, and what I learn from the messages of the answers.

Probably from specific answers, the most useful lesson could be summed up as 'sometimes other people don't see it that way.' At least, that's the first lesson that comes to mind. Not earth-shattering, I know, and something I was already aware of in a way - but actually having a picture of the other person's view of me - ouf!

From divining - simply, everything you learn from the fact that it works, here, in this room, in this moment. I think if I can ever be fully aware of everything that implies, all the time - rather than realising it again and again with an almighty shock every time - I will have new eyes. One of the joys of consulting with yarrow (when I manage to!) is that I have longer to be aware of what's really happening.

And just maybe, I could be beginning to understand things through the patterns of the I Ching even when I don't actually divine. I'm wary of this - don't want to be using Change to ossify my understanding - but it does happen. The preceding paragraph makes me think of Hexagram 51, the contrast between being shocked again and again and the young priest who holds the vessel (full of the electrical essence of renewal) securely.

Just my two twigs
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C

candid

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Happy to see the camp?s gracious hostess joining around the fire.

I think I understand, Hilary. The ?Changes? do integrate into our own natural rhythms. While it may seem slightly assuming to act on them as though we?re acting from the position of an oracle, I think is really the whole point: To be our own oracle. Now, how to amaze, and sometimes even surprise ourselves with uncanny accuracy? That?s another thing! But, we do it in dreams, so it must be possible. What comes to my mind is, 31. Where does that influence come from anyway?

My most valuable lesson from I Ching is: That I have choices. I?ve learned that no matter what life brings or presents, there are choices. I?ve learned that I?m not at the mercy of any circumstance, because of these choices. The greatest of these choices, to me is, to choose to go on loving. Yi does seem to demonstrate this kind of love and heart. I?ve learned that its not a difficult thing to do, if I?m willing to face the hardness of my own heart.

Knowing specifically what choices are available in a given set of circumstances, is what Yi, in a more rudimentary way, has shown to me. For every this, there is a that. And, there are only so many of each, when you get right down to it.

*leans back.. watching the glow*
 

Frankelmick

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Candid,

"What is the most valuable lesson that you have learned from the I-Ching?"

*Becomes quiet and serious*

Respect for Chinese thought.

Mick
 
C

candid

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Hey Mick!
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*scoots over and points upward at post*

What about you?
 

Frankelmick

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Candid,

Sorry. I'm a bit confused.

Perhaps this is what I should have said.

The most valuable lesson that I have learned from the I-Ching is that I have learned to respect Chinese thought.

Best wishes,

Mick
 
C

candid

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Ahhh .. got it. (Its way too early here!)

Yes, its a different perspective. Kind of like looking from and at the inside of 'things' rather than at mere appearences.
 

andrew

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Hi again!
That's a bit of a toughie considering I haven't been using the I Ching very long, but I would have to say that a lesson I've learned is it really does work, and respect it, otherwise you may get "told off" by the oracle. I got hexagram 1 Force with relating hexagram 4 Enveloping, after I had asked the same question with my tarot cards. By the way *shuffles up to the fire* does anyone have any marshmallows? ;)
 
C

candid

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*hands Andrew the bag of white puffs*

It does work. I haven't yet figured out how, just know it does. And yeah, it can tan our hide when that's what it takes to wake us up.

I remember a Bible passage where Jesus just gets through telling Peter that he was 'the rock.' Then, a moment later - he looks at Peter and says: get behind me Satan. Reminds me of your 1 changing to 4.
 
C

chris

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"What is the most valuable lesson that you have learned from the I-Ching?"

The gullability of the species, or more so of mind as it struggles for instant gratification in solving its problems - rejecting the fact that being an envolving species so discovering about our selves will take time and that discovery includes the realisation that the I Ching etc is a METAPHOR for our brains - there is no 'spirit' other than the spirit of the species that works off the survival instincts of (a) all sensations are POTENTIALLY meaningful and (b) all sensations are POTENTIALLY lined together. The exaggeration of the instincts has led to an idealist perspective - an error, but a 'useful' one in that the instincts act to integrate the species as a whole. (see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/id.html)

The extremely useful metaphor that is the I Ching, once you understand it is a metaphor, can transcend its 'mystic' elements, move it beyond 'a divination system of ancient China', but many who lack understanding of it 'hype' it up to be something outside of the species - it isnt.

Only in recent times have we had access to enough data to aid in identifying the structure and methods of our disciplines in that they are particularisations of a universal set of species-derived qualities associated with a SPECIFIC context and from that has emerged a discipline, an ontology, used as a filter for describing reality.

Overall, I have learnt from the I Ching that it is time for the species to 'grow up'.

Best,

Chris.
I Ching site:

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/newindex.html
 
C

candid

Guest
Hi Chris,

I?m really curious about your input. Why does the I Ching interest you so much if you attribute absolutely no validity to it as an oracle? Are your mathematical acrobatics merely an effort to discredit it, or is there some intrinsic value to the formulas that you promote here? Also, what metaphor do you attribute to the I Ching ? or do you mean that each hexagram is a metaphor? I definitely agree with you there, if that?s your meaning.

~Candid
 
C

chris

Guest
Hi Candid,

I think you may have mis-interpreted my attitude to the IC! you must visit my websites sometime ( and read the material! ;-)) but to summarise:

The focus is on the source of MEANING from the level of the SPECIES and as such I have identified the underlying structures we use as a species in deriving meaning. These structures are general, shared across all members, but being general they only becoming meaningful when associated with a context.

the association of the set of meanings with a context has led to the number of different disciplines we use as filters to interpret reality and the IC is one of those disciplines - it is an Ontology, a parts-list of reality whichwe use to interpret (The associations in each discipline are made by individuals that feed into the local collective etc and so appear 'different' to other associations)

Since all we can know is determined by the species-based method we use to know, so ANY discipline is a metaphor for the underlying species method - described at

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/id.html

The reason people see so much in the IC (as in concepts of physics, mathematics etc) is not due to the expressions but due to the underlying, dichotomy-based qualities of the brain that shine through in ALL disciplines and as such serve as the ties for the making of analogies.

Thus all disciplines are specialisations of the ONE general method and as such it is really easy to make analogies across seemingly 'different' disciplines since the differences are facades put on the underlying sameness (as described in the abhove link).

For the I Ching/MBTI links see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/MBTIX.htm

For the template links to Mathematics see
http//pages.prodigy.net/lofting/NeuroMaths3.htm

For IC and Mathematics see
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/icmaths.html

ALL disciplines are self-contained systems, they are 'boxes' and as such we stay in the box by taking the set of core distinctions and applying the set to each distinction - we use the set as a source of analogy to describe different, context-determined, qualitative expressions of a particular distinction and in doing that create a whole set of new qualities we can take as 'basic'. Thus 8 qualities lead to 64, 64 lead to 4096, etc etc - you only get stopped in deriving qualities when you lose resolution power to differentiate one difference from another.

This means we keep the box 'pure'. This process of recruitment and abstraction is a method used by our neurology.

EVERY discipline that has 'value' to us as a species has the SAME underlying format where hard-coded, species-level meanings (as in the feeling of 'wholeness') are linked to a context and made 'different' through the use of words etc. and the use of recursion to extend the set of qualities used to describe the discipline.

EVERY discipline has all of its set of qualities applicable to every moment such that for the IC for any particular moment ALL trigrams/hexagrams are 'meaningful', but for a particular individual in that particular moment ONE of the trigrams/hexagrams will be of more 'value' than the others.

What this means is that for any moment we have a STRING of trigrams (8) or, at a finer resolution, hexagrams (64) that is ordered by quality applicable to the moment.

Coin tossing will randomly select one of those hexagrams/trigrams and since ALL are applicable so you will find meaning - it is guaranteed due to the emphasis on HAVING A QUESTION -IOW you have FOCUSED on 'something' and all 64 hexagrams will apply.

The delusion is in the belief that when you use the IC you are communicatign with 'fate' - you are and you are not in that all FUTURE events MUST 'fit' a hexagram BUT not necessarily the one you have selected randomly - EVERY moment is mappable to a hexagram and so you can 'see' the set of futures BUT the current moment is tied to causality such that the path from 'now' to the 'future' is tied to the specific hexagram of the specific moment.

To identify the specific hexagram you have to do more than toss coins - you ask questions - see my proactive IC material at the IC site http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/newindex.html OR go and see the use of my perspective in on-line councelling via pastor John Turton in New Zealand who has recruited my work to extend his councelling systems -

The specific pages are:

http://www.onlinecounsellor.co.nz/therapy/yesnodisk.htm

http://www.onlinecounsellor.co.nz/therapy/NLPoutcome.htm

http://www.onlinecounsellor.co.nz/therapy/dilts2.htm

http://www.onlinecounsellor.co.nz/therapy/sinful.htm

http://www.onlinecounsellor.co.nz/therapy/quickrebt.htm

John's homepage is:

http://www.onlinecouncellor.co.nz

These different pages reflect different concepts but use the SAME method of questioning to elicit a hexagram.

John's particular perspective is in Religion and as such we 'differ' but my focus in on the underying patterns and so I dont mind what the expression is.

He still has to update the 'deeper analysis' links on the result pages to my current hexagrams but has captured the general idea ( he uses Murphy's IC as the 'front end' due to the links to the Christian Bible given)

So ... welcome to the world of I Ching PLUS which is what I deal with; taking the IC into the 21st century in that by understanding the underlying GENERAL neurocognitive template we use as a species (and in particular the concepts of the Transformation function and the Transcendence function) we can EXTEND and so REFINE the IC into realms not thought of, or else treated too 'lightly' in the past - we move into text/context relationships and what comes from them.

Now, if you still want to coin toss that is fine in that it can give you a result that you have not considered in your reflections upon a situation BUT there is no need to tie it all with some realm of the 'magical' - the realm that comes with trying to understand something without understanding the properties and methods of what you are using to understand!

As I said before, it is time to grow up. To recognise the depths of the species encoded into the metaphor that is the I Ching. That means you will have to do some work in reading about the source of meaning etc etc etc - see the website links below.

I am sure you can see from the above how it is I dont 'get along' with the more 'traditionalist' I chingers - they have been deluded and need to recognise that fact to move-on but to many that is a 'problem' in that their identity is so tied-up with the 'traditional' IC that moving on can elicit fear...

Hilary's approach is acceptable in that she exploits well (exploitation being a property of the species and is associated with the Transcendence function), she has taken her Fine Arts degree (lit? - her prose reflects the Transcendence function at work - to
go beyond', to exaggerate etc and she does a good job at that 'fluffing' exercise [as in fluff-up the pillows etc]) and she has linked the degree with the 'traditional' IC and so exploits both to try to make a living. As such, her rushing to recruit (exploit) the lists when she cannot deal with a question is amusing at times, irritating at other times (the exploitation is obvious! ;-) - but at least she is (a) trying and (b) acknowledges her 'errors', overall she seems to be THINKING with an aim to develop rather than sitting on her hands as many are doing re the IC.

Getting back to methodology, in drama theory there are eight basic stories as there are eight basic trigrams. You can put one story as a subplot in another, as you can one trigram atop another, and so we move from 8 to 64.

You then find an external context and from that derive novelty - as in Romeo&Juliet in the context of the story of the Titanic - and out pops the movie "Titanic".

In the hexagrams the context is described by a hexagram and as such you can put one hexagram in a context of another - and so out pops the moving lines approach (and a lot more, see the work on IC matrix concepts)

The METHODOLOGY here, be it IC or Drama etc is the SAME and reflects the underlying influences of the neuron at work and in particular the Transformation and Transcendence functions.

(for particulars on IC compasses and Drama etc see the older website page http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/onemany.html )


SO, understand all of this and you will 'transcend' ... ;-) ... if your ready to...

Best,

Chris.
Meaning page root:
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting
I Ching PLUS root:
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/newindex.html
 
C

candid

Guest
Hi Chris,

Thanks for your explanation. It really isn?t different, however, than how I had interpreted your meaning all along. In common terms, you perceive that any hexagram at any time with provide an answer that I, a member of the human species, will apply to my given set of circumstances. You?re certainly not the first one to view it that way and express it to me as such.

I?m not one to mysticize the oracular phenomenon and I find no magic involved in the process. I do, however, apply the same intuitive nature of the human species to the universal principle - namely, that which stems from Yin or the subjective side of nature. In this regard, it isn?t different than the phenomenon of love, which isn?t very logical and yet exists no matter how we try to dissect it objectively. But, in order to experience this intuitiveness one must invest their own intuition and subjectivity. It seems to me that this is something which you are either unable to do, or are simply more content to view existence as being contained within neatly labeled boxes of logic and reasoning - an entirely Yang view of both, the human species and the universe at large.

Other active principles in addition to intuition and love which you are likely to exclude from your analysis are: Synchronicity, passion, creativity and anything else which can?t be deduced from pure logic.

Our view of ?growing up? is indeed quite different. Nevertheless, I hold that your perspective is a valuable one, though entirely one-sided, in my opinion. Its like the other half or extreme, which sees fairies, angels, gods and every sort of magical creature behind everything that happens. I?ll hold to a healthy balance of opposites and let others conclude what they will.

~Candid
 
C

chris

Guest
dearest Candid,

you self-imposed ignorance is stunning. I assure you if you spent the time trying to understand the template material you migh start to understand what is going on and it has nothing to do with the EXPRESSIONS of things, be expressions of love or logic. (and love is logical, but you have to understand FULL logic, not the formal stuff rammed down the throats of idealists ;-))

your comments about synchronicity and passion suggest a strongly idealist perspective ( a focus on exaggerations that include an idealist perspective of synchronicity - perhaps you should go and read Jung again - slowly) These conepts CAN be reduced to neurocognitive functions and in particular those of transforming and transcending where transforming deals with habit creation/maintenance (and so integrations) and transcending deals with synchronisations and the consequences of 'errors' e.g. transcendence.

ALL processes that are 'irreducable' ARE but from a static state to a dynamic state - read the page on paradox processing:

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/paradox.html


The issue here, in our emails, is MY perspective happily includes yours but yours seems to have a difficulty with mine... Law of Requisite Variety Candid, System with the most choices will do better ... SO .. as I said, time to grow up -- but are you ready? from the form of your prose, I dont think so...
(With the speed of your reply it is obvious that you did not read any of the links supplied - a knee jerk reaction to my email indicates an idealist at work)

Best Regards, Hugs & Kisses,

Chris.
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting
 
C

candid

Guest
Dear Chris,

Obviously you are upset. Look guy, I?m not here at Clarity to insult anyone or carry on useless debates. I?m here to offer assistance to genuine inquirers of I Ching and to enjoy discussions in an atmosphere of mutual trust and friendliness, and I shall go on doing so until the gracious hostess asks me not to, or until I?m no longer able. You obviously have a different view of how things work, and that?s fine. But I have to ask, what good purpose do your derogatory remarks serve? Who benefits from your techno-speak? Perhaps someone has, I don?t know. At any rate, you are who and how you are and I wish you well.

I have no idea what ?emails? you are referring to.

~Candid
 
C

chris

Guest
Dearest Candid,

How you can imagine I am upset is interesting in that I am more amused with your issues re logic and mathematics and your perception that love etc has nothing to do with Logic. That may seem condescending and in fact it probably is in that the focus is on watching children in a sandpit! ;-)

FYI Logic is made-up of analytical (often called formal) logic and dialectical logic. Analytical is the realm of MECHANICS, of the 'law of the excluded middle' and as such is very precise but also sterile in that it lacks dynamics - which it is supposed to do in that it deals with static concepts, the notion of the eternal and so the ideal; its focus is on the ONE.

Dialectical logic is the realm of THERMODYNAMICS, of the irreversible but repeatable, of CHANGE, and so love can turn to hate and visa versa.
This logic is logic of INTEGRATION, of relationships, and as such is not as 'dot' precise as analytical logic that is more attuned to DIFFERENTIATION. Thus the focus of the dialectical logic is on no less than TWO; a PAIR.

The I Ching reflects both in that the I Ching reflects our brains and our brain reflects both forms of Logic, the issue is that interest in the dialectical form has been suppressed as our more idealist collectives focus on archetypes and the 'eternal' as we seek identity. (and the Marxists etc recruited the concept of the Dialectical from Hegel but errored in their analysis in that their focus was idealist)


Dialectical logic is the logic of change and so can describe processes of emotion etc that formal logic cannot deal with. the school of formal logic is so focused on identity, on 'dot' precision that it is incapable of understanding dialectical logic other than something 'opposite' - it isnt. formal logic is an exaggeration of the dialectical, a particularisation where we 'stop' time to analyse the parts but in doing so confuse the parts as if a whole rather than a part linked to a whole and so allowing for the derivation of that whole from the part (metonomy at work).

For more on these logics see

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/logic.html

as well as the previously supplied link of

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/id.html

that covers the underlying source of logic, love, and all else (or more so their GENERAL natures which we then contextualise).

I dont think there as anything derogatory in my remarks - unless you interpreted them as such. The FACT is that you seem to misunderstand our nature as a species and on doing so have 'split' with a bias to concepts you feel are 'outside' of logic and so seem to have isolated yourself and so chosen to be ignorant of such matters - this is unfortunate and suggests you have had 'bad' experiences in these areas - my work can aid in understanding these areas and so is intended to aid you and others BUT you will need to travel BENEATH all concepts, all expressions to delve into the species-wide realm of meaning.

IMHO You perspective seems to be so ingrained that you still have not gone through the links I supplied that may aid you in understanding your species nature, and that includes understanding the logic of love and hate, of one turning into the other and all manifest in the I Ching.

As to the emails, I mean the ones we are writing at the moment on this list - the phrasing of this issue in your above email suggests you are upset - chill dude - dont be so defensive ;-) There is a LOT to learn about the IC, and our species in general, and as such we go way beyond the works of the more 'traditional' I Chingers...

best regards,

Chris.
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting
 

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