Talking/listening to the dead

[louise]

I just found that dialogue really quite enlightening. I am glad I've been reminded that prayer is "not so much as asking for an answer to specific issues but rather for the greater good of humanity" (Candid). Somehow I'd forgotten that bit ! Yes from your discussion, Kts, Candid, LiSe, I see that the clear distinction between prayer and divination is that in divination we are asking for answers to specific problems and in prayer it is as if we also adding our mind/heart/soul for greater good, and in a sense, crudely put, wishing to affect the outcome of things for the good, with the proviso that ultimately it be what God wills. Thanks everyone

 

[candid]

Hi Louise,

It is an interesting topic, I agree. It seems that for most people prayer is something which is hardwired into us, though the means and methods have variations. If prayer is to be a living process and not just ritualistic, it doesn?t always seem to have the same form or motive, nor is the deity image static, as LiSe pointed out. I?m reminded also of what I may be missing in my own prayer life by limiting my views on it. This has been helpful to me as well. Thanks, all for sharing your views on such a personal topic.

 

[candid]

Was thinking about the wheel of life and how it should never be broken. It takes a Master blacksmith to smooth out life's dents. Which gives thought to my Grandfather, the Master blacksmith. Thank you Grandpa.

 

[heylise]

Nice thing about discussion is, that it brings up many things in yourself you never really realized. I have been thinking if there was a hexagram related to prayer.
Last night I was awake in the middle of the night, unable to sleep because there was such a mess in my head. No serious problem, just a huge bunch of small ones.
I asked the Yi Jing for calmness, and also thought that this was close to prayer. Not asking for things, just for a soul at rest. I received hex.41.
It?s name is a beautiful image: a drawing of two hands clasped together, and an empty cauldron. Can?t think of a more apt image for prayer, especially if you don?t see the empty cauldron (only) as ?there is nothing?, but as an image of the praying soul.
LiSe

 

[candid]

mmm that is an interesting image, LiSe. We seem more inclined to pray when we're empty than when we're full. I've wondered if this is a human shortcoming or if its how it is meant to be? Doesn?t seem right to turn to God only when we?re empty. I guess 16 is the proper way to commune with deity in times of abundance. Any thoughts on this?

 

[louise]

Well I notice that I sometimes seem to meditate and sleep better when I feel utterly hopeless ? That is gone past the worrying stage and wondering whether its worth going on at all. This despondency, if total, seems to lead me to a kind of mental surrender - often then I'll get unusually good sleep and deeper meditation experience. This may be I guess, because when I 'give up' my bowl (mind) is empty and so can be filled.
Strangely when I've had a lively, fun kind of day my mind doesn't want to let go of the day. Emptying and surrendering the mind then seems less attractive. It is a bit of a puzzle this, no it doesn't seem right to turn to God only when empty.

 

[hilary]

(The conversation has moved way beyond this, I know, but I'm s-l-o-w! When I looked at the Hexagram 53-->52 reading, it struck me at once as referring to the journey of the French girl's soul.

The wild geese, on the penultimate stage of their journey home, reach the grave mounds. In I Ching terms this is positive rather than morbid, as the ancestors orient you in relation to the larger spiritual landscape. There is delay here, a time without fruit - maybe feeling lost - but in the end nothing is stronger than the progress towards fulfilment that dominates the whole hexagram.

It's drawn onward by Hexagram 52, the achievement of inner stillness without reactivity. Maybe a destination for her, maybe a strong, solid perspective for you. I think overall the reading is there to reassure you that what you heard was from a 'staging post' in the journey.)

 

[kts]

Thank you, Hilary. I needed someone else's perspective. I thought it might mean something like that, but I was also trying to apply the idea of Gradual Development to myself, which I couldn't see really fitting.

There is a lot to read and ponder in all the contributions here, so don't worry about being slow. You have a lot of different balls to keep in the air!

 

[candid]

Hilary,

What excellent insight and timing for me on this post! My Dad's dying and two nights ago my Grandfather, Grandmother and Uncle came to me at night in a vision. Their countenance was exactly as you've described above. I believe they've come to guide my Dad home. This morning my brother was sharing that my Dad keeps talking about the same three as though they were standing in the same room with him, very matter-of-factly. He's lost touch with this world and everyone there thinks he's delusional about seeing and being with his mom, dad and brother. I believe he's seeing what they can not.

Thank you for sharing this!

Candid

 

[willow]

Candid,

May he be at peace and have a safe journey, and may you have all the support you need.

I spent time with my grandmother during her last days, and it was as if the window and wall behind me were a great stage to her. She saw many people and things there, and yes, very matter-of-factly told me about them. In a certain sense, she was quite "herself" - it was me and our house, and time that were kind of melty. One minute she would be herself as a little girl, and another minute she would be herself as my grandma. "Looking over her shoulder," as it were, at the great beyond was a deep and unspeakable honor.

Go over to the topic http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/404.html?1032436829 where I want to continue what I have to say, because it's relevant to what Hilary asked.

Willow

 

[hilary]

Candid, I'm sorry about your father - or rather, about your experience of losing him, if such it is.

A year or maybe six months ago, that interpretation wouldn't have come to me at all naturally. The clear, crisp borders on my idea of reality, and what kinds of connection are possible within it, are getting increasingly blurred. I have you to thank for a lot of that - Kts and Willow's grandmother, too, and a few paradigm-dismantling answers from Yi. Thank you.

(Looking out of my window for the migrating geese...)

 

[candid]

Thank you, Willow and Hilary.

Hilary, your clear, crisp borders of reality and connections aren't the only ones which have become blurred - or perhaps just softer and translucent. 19:2 is what comes to mind.

 

[pam]

Candid and all-

I just came across this whole discussion and read it from beginning to end. Many wonderful thoughts from all of you and many things I have found to be true, also. I turned to the on-line version here to ask the Yi "when we ask for an answer from the I Ching, does this come from a God-force in the universe?" and received the answer 52 - unchanging. This is the second time I have received an answer about this with 52. The first question, four years ago was whether we were united with "soul mates" after death.

I turned to my Wilhelm's to read through, because sometimes just a single line or two will stick out and a light will go on in my mind, saying "this is it!"

Reading this today, I am struck with the following passages:
"It is the mysterious place where all things begin and end, where death and birth pass one into the other."
"Thus the superior man does not permit his thoughts to go beyond his situation." and
"Accordingly, the lesson taught by the Image is that of restriction to what is within the limits of one's position." (don't ask for what there is no human understanding of?)
When I asked the soul mates question, I was struck by the passage ""one is no longer aware of one's body, that is, of one's personality...Hence one does not see the other persons in the courtyard."
Sometimes in reading through the hexagram, what strikes me and sticks with me seems to be the correct answer. (

 

[bfireman]

WOW! What a great thread! Thanks Pam for "reviving it from the dead"!!! Lots of interesting ideas in this one. Hope nobody minds me adding a couple stories here, since yal have been so open with your beautiful opinions on the subject. I found very interesting the idea discussed: spirit as "playful". This idea came into my life a few months ago, in a very mysterious and beautiful way. A book I was reading mentioned the Hindu concept of "Lila". I had never heard this, so investigated what it meant. Loosely, Lila can be defined as "dance of the divine". It represents the cycle of spirit to matter, formless to form, ... Hex 1 to Hex 2. What is so beautiful is the Hindu concept of play involved in this transformation. Hindu cosmology answers the question: "what necessitates spirit to transform into matter in the first place???" Lila is the answer - simply PLAY. Spirit transforms to matter simply because "it can", it is playful and joyous. This cycle,Lila - the dance of the divine, resonates w/ me and my expereince of life, love, force, energy... Same thing. Lila! So, about a week after this word came into my life so did a little kitty cat, rubbing her head on my hand right now(making it hard to type)... Kind of materialized on my doorstep, so I named her Lila. Actually, it wasn't really a conscious decision. There she was! Lila! A constant reminder in my life now of the concept.

One more story to share... I think this story relates to this thread, "listening to the dead". About ten years ago I was introduced to the idea of spirt in very dynamic and profound way. At that point in my life, I had a vague idea of the concept, yet definitely walked through life under the illusion of "I" vs. "the rest of the world". Not much connection there. Then... spent some time in Ecuador, which involved some time in the upper Amazon rain forest, where the high Andes descend into the vast river deltas which eventually flow to the Pacific. Most diverse region of life on the planet. You can feel it. During some time spent with some old shamans, myself and others had the opportunity to take part in a series of "ayahuasca" rituals. Ayahuasca translates to: vine of the dead, or vine of the soul. Bascially, the shamans drink a brew made from a very specific combination of plants, which puts one into direct contact with the realm of spirits, the main purpose being to cure the sick. The causes/cures of illness and sickness down there is a complete 100 degree turn from a western view. It is only by communicating with the spirits, the dead, ancestores... can the cause and cure of an illness be determined. Ayahuasca is the vehicle for this. W/out going into details, suffice to say that my expericnce of "reality" was never the same again!!! Just as "real" as sitting here and feeling the keys beneath my fingertips were experiences of mingling w/ "another world". For me, this was just the beginning of a slow and gradual shift in how I walk through life... how and why the I-Ching eventually came into my life. Since this time, it has been my experience that this connection to the mysterious realm of spirit is always there, always present. It is just the ramblings of an uncontrolled and undisciplined mind which cover up and cloud this connection most of our lives, providing the illusion of separateness, or "I". What a wondeful gift of the spirit is the I-Ching!!!!

Peace and Love - B

 

[lindsay]

The beautiful tail of Halley's comet zooms through our solar system every 76-79 years, a periodicity slightly beyond the span of average human mortality. Many people have died without ever seeing the comet. Jesus, for example, could only imagine its fiery beauty from the stories of his elders, for the comet appeared in 11 B.C. and again in 66 A.D.

In the summer of 1910 the comet came again, and was seen by a 5-year old child in the American midwest, a child who grew to become a good American poet. In 1952, the poet Kenneth Rexroth, now a father of 47, wondered how his young daughter would experience the comet when it returned to view in 1986. He wrote this poem for his daughter Mary:

Halley's Comet

When in your middle years
The great comet comes again
Remember me, a child,
Awake in the summer night,
Standing in my crib and
Watching that long-haired star
So many years ago.
Go out in the dark and see
Its plume over water
Dribbling on the liquid night,
And think that life and glory
Flickered on the rushing
Bloodstream for me once, and for
All who have gone before me,
Vessels of the billion-year-long
River that flows now in your veins.

Halley's comet did appear, as expected, in 1986. I saw it. Its next appearance is due in 2061. I will be dead. How strange to think of one's life, and the lives of our loved ones, in terms of a comet's flight. Who knows what timetable we follow? Still we endure. And so, for a while, does the Yi.