Tarot Question

[willow]

I just got my first set of tarot cards. Right away, a good friend warned me, "Don't ever read your own cards. You can look at them, but always get someone else to read them for you."

This person knows what she is talking about, and I take this warning at face value - it is my first lesson.

So I have two questions:

First, it seems that with the I Ching one is very much encouraged to "read your own cards," and this is an important part of understanding the lesson. So why is the Tarot different, or is it? Are there similar traditional warnings with the I Ching? Or are there qualities to the I Ching and Tarot that require different approaches?

My second question relates to a comment Dharma makes in another topic: "I have found that the nature and essence of my relationship to any given person is *always* contained within our first meeting." I'm wondering how to apply that perspective here, to this introduction to a new oracle.

 

[hilary]

Disclaimer: I'm a complete ignoramus about tarot. However, from what I've heard I don't think that the 'never read your own cards' warning is universally accepted.

See, for example, these articles:

Reading for yourself - getting started with daily/ weekly readings

and

Reading for yourself - common problems and helpful solutions

(Dharma - I'm sure you'll get here sooner or later - what do you think of these, and the other articles there? I'm impressed.)

 

[dharma]

Hello Willow,

I have heard some strange superstitious things about Tarot over the years that counter what I believe and KNOW about the Natural Laws of the Universe and so I have personally chosen to ignore them.

Amongst the weird things that I have come across is that one should not PURCHASE one's own cards - that they should be a gift. But if this were so, then none of us would ever have a proper deck to work with that resonated with who WE are. We each have the difficult task of finding the right deck as it is, and leaving it up to someone else seems to me to be an impossible expectation.

I have also heard that one should never THANK (imagine that!) a reader for a reading - that it is bad luck.

The warning about "reading your own cards" - I have also heard this one before, yet no one has ever been able to explain the logic behind it because there is none - only superstition.

I have been reading my own cards for many years without any repercussions. I can't imagine how else I could have learned to do it properly for other people unless I practiced doing it for myself.

Actually, I DID run into some difficulties initially as a result of my immature inability to be objective about myself. If nothing else, reading my own cards taught me how to step back and be more neutral and impersonal when it came to my own issues. Reading Tarot for myself made reining in my emotions a necessity so that ultimately I found that I could approach other areas of my life with a more meditiative quality than before.

In answer, to your second question - the message contained within this "first meeting" reveals your fears regarding letting go of old outdated ideas and incorporating new ones into your life experience.

It would seem that if you were to follow the advice of an old trusted friend (who, by the way, is merely the outer projected fears you have about divination) you would perhaps be letting an important opportunity for growth slip by - all based on illogical fear and not as a result of sound direct experience.

If you were to allow yourself to explore and discover Tarot despite your friend's warning you could KNOW Tarot for yourself but then you would risk coming up against your fears about it. Are you ready for some growth?

I hope this helps.

Dharma

 

[hilary]

Dharma wrote:
"Amongst the weird things that I have come across is that one should not PURCHASE one's own cards - that they should be a gift. But if this were so, then none of us would ever have a proper deck to work with that resonated with who WE are. We each have the difficult task of finding the right deck as it is, and leaving it up to someone else seems to me to be an impossible expectation."

On my last birthday, I bought myself a tarot pack as a gift

(No idea if it was the 'right one', though.)

On another note - Dharma, surely you don't believe in the impossible?

 

[dharma]

Hi Hilary!

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you before - I didn't have the time to read the articles you posted links to.

Having read them, I like the way the author expresses her thoughts on working with Tarot. BTW, I've noticed that you've really been checking out Tarot sites lately

perhaps more so than I have.


You said:

"On my last birthday, I bought myself a tarot pack as a gift

(No idea if it was the 'right one', though.)...

and...surely you don't believe in the impossible?"

The deck may or may not be - only time will tell. I hope you are enjoying your time with them. What have your efforts yielded? I'd be glad to help you with any questions that come up. Curious, which deck and book did you pick up??

Nothing is "impossible" you are correct, Hilary. It would have been better had I said an "unreasonable" rather than an "impossible" expectation.

Dharma

 

[willow]

Thanks Hilary and Dharma,

Those are very helpful articles and thoughts for approaching spiritual development, but I think the one line that bothers me in the articles, can help me explain better why I first asked my question:

The author says (about not reading for yourself), "This is an old superstition that has no basis in reality."

See, the thing is, along with our liberation from old "superstitions" in modern times, I find there is also so much we have lost, so many times when this pronouncement is wrong. Witness all the discoveries about plants and medicines that have come from reexamining "old wives' tales." And the way that modern physics is starting to say, "those mystics actually got it pretty much right."

So, although I understand that I can take the approach of disregarding the warning, I don't want to. At least not without knowing it first.

An issue for me in my life is what, astrologically, we would associate with the 12th house - returning to living memory that which has been lost, returning to a place of honor that which has been excluded.

I have other divining tools to work with already, and so I don't *need* to read my own cards. And the way these cards come to me is as a step along the way of a path of spiritual development that is becoming more conscious for me all the time. In a sense, I feel the tradition of Tarot is speaking to me already through this injunction, and I want to know what it is saying.

Of course, I feel a great desire to read my own cards.

A couple of analogies/images come to mind. One is an image of the President and the red crisis telephone. The President knows that that is not the phone to use to order out for pizza. That's sort of how this feels.

The other analogy, without wanting to offend anyone, is to the old saying that if you "play with yourself, you'll go blind." Of course we know that that does not physically happen, and we also know that healthy sexuality includes being comfortable with oneself. But still, in my experience, the kernel of truth there is that if one focuses one's sexual energy on an internally encapsulated fantasy, one loses the power of sex to forge and support relationships with real people -- in a sense, one does "go blind" to the world of relationships and of others.

Hope that helps clarify my concerns.

W

 

[hilary]

It surely does, thank you! You do have a way with imagery

Yes, losing touch with the importance of what you're doing, and sterile narcissism, are both things that can go wrong when you read for yourself. But not things that must necessarily go wrong for everyone, every time.

Your 'crisis phone' reminded me that in China (as I've read) the I Ching actually has that kind of status, and there are other oracles for the 'pizza delivery' department of divination. It certainly feels alarming to say anything to contradict such a tradition - yet I know that the I Ching isn't 'broken' by lighter consultations, and for some people they are exactly what's needed.

I've a feeling that an important part of recovering what is lost is to discover what the tradition rests on. Though this has to be done with care. Two medical examples that I think are accurate - if not, they're illustrative anyway...

The old wives kept a piece of mouldy bread handy to treat infections. Understanding how this worked has saved heaven-knows-how-many lives.

The old wives, or at least the old aromatherapists, used thyme as a disinfectant. Excitable chemists found that thymol was the active ingredient, so used that instead. It has lower anti-microbial activity than the whole oil.

So inward understanding could be the difference between a truly revived tradition and a very dead one.

As for 'no basis in reality' - not the most intelligent part of the article, methinks. Whose reality? Where? This is not something we can measure in a test tube...

(In other words, I can't see how anyone else could know what it is fitting for you to do with your cards.)

 

[hilary]

...ah yes, what I forgot to mention.

Dharma, what ways are there of reading and learning from tarot cards without divining with them? I'm sure there must be some...

 

[dharma]

Hilary, I'm not really sure what you're asking me here, please clarify.

.....

Willow, the purpose of any form of divination is as a means of tapping into the not-so-well-lit depths of oneself first. That we can help others with our skills is a secondary feature. Tarot is an art of interpreting symbols, plain and simple. It's nothing more complicated than that.

I have a hard time seeing how this situation is similar to the subject of the medicinal properties of plants, the red crisis phone or even that of sexually pleasuring oneself.

Yes, indeed, modern science thought it could do Nature one better and the truth is it cannot -and now we are starting to discover this. How can YOU not see that Tarot, and other forms of divination, have been struggling in the same way to regain THEIR proper significance and value since, at least, the Salem witch hunts, which is when many of the superstitions began.

You speak about the 12th house and of returning to living memory that which has been lost, returning to a place of honor that which has been excluded, yet you have found a way to make your fears conform to your reasoning and have also found a way for an old belief system that originally was created to oust all things magical, or somehow related, to be your guide.

Even your red crisis phone analogy, though interesting, is not completely effective here. Certainly, approach the cards with respect and even though you personally choose to not use them frivolously it doesn't mean that you *cannot* do so. Clearly you can, in the same way that the phone can be used for other purposes other than what it is intended for.

I don't wish to get into detail about the sexual taboo you've attached as well, because though it sounds very intelligent and *seems* applicable it simply is not. You would not be "playing" with yourself and fantasizing but learning how to listen to yourself and trust your intuition.

Tabooing it, sexually or otherwise, is just another justification for taking an extremely cautious position when what is really needed is to lighten up a bit and let yourself go. You say you feel the tradition of Tarot is speaking to you already through this injunction, and you want to know what it is saying, but how CAN you ??? You seem to have already decided that there is some intricate and complicated theory behind all the superstition that validates the warning to not read for oneself. That wall has to go before you can relate to Tarot in any truly meaningful way.

Willow, you say you feel a great desire to read your own cards, and I say that your natural impetus towards growth is getting quashed from all the associations you have with Tarot. I mean no disrespect, but by choosing to rationalize your fears you really avoid true growth and mind awareness. Life is to be enjoyed and Tarot is one aspect of the big wonderful picture. Enjoy it more, judge it less.

Dharma

 

[hilary]

Just quickly, what I was asking:

There's an I Ching tradition of just taking the book down and reading it as a 'book of wisdom'. Personally I find this to be a seriously limited way of approaching it - you decide what you read, and what you'll allow it to mean. Hm. Seems to make it unnecessarily difficult to learn anything new. But up to a point it is useful, for instance, to work out the relations between 'families' of hexagrams, even without the anchor to real life.

But anyway, there it is. Question: is there anything comparable for tarot? Can't you learn something in the abstract from 'reading' the major arcana like a book? Didn't I read somewhere a suggestion that you experiment with putting cards together to create stories?

For myself, I'd only be interested in such things as a prelude to actually talking with an oracle, ie divination. But if Willow at this time chooses not to divine for herself with tarot, for whatever reason, I wondered whether you could suggest any other way of learning from it. (And who knows where this might lead?)

 

[Frankelmick]

Hilary,

To answer your question from my limited experience with Tarot.

"There's an I Ching tradition of just taking the book down and reading it as a 'book of wisdom'.... Question: is there anything comparable for tarot?"

Very definitely. You don't have to use your Tarot cards for divination.

The Tarot Trumps represent archetypes that you can study and meditate on. As you become familiar with the sequence of the Tarot Trumps, you learn another powerful metaphor for spiritual development.

Then you can move on to processes represented by the Pip Cards and the human types represented by the Court Cards.

By the way, over the last year or so, I've been having the most extra-ordinary e-mail conversation with someone in the US who's worked out correspondances between the Tarot trumps and I Ching hexagrams...

... but that's another post.

Best wishes,

Mick

 

[dharma]

There you have it Hilary (& Willow). Mick has very nicely shown the way.

Mick, I'd be very interested in getting the details of your most extra-ordinary e-mail conversation with your US connection who's worked out the correspondances between the Tarot trumps and I Ching hexagrams. Please share the wealth!

Dharma

 

[Frankelmick]

Dharma,

Thanks for the interest. My US connection is Karen Witter, do you know of her?

I'll definitely try to share the wealth but the problem for me is that I don't claim to understand how Karen has worked out the Tarot/I Ching correspondances (it's way out of my league) so either I'll try to get her involved or ask her permission to post her notes here.

I'll let you know how I get on. Sorry to be a tease.

Mick

 

[dharma]

I'm afraid I haven't, until now that is, heard of Ms Karen Witter.

Has she any published works or a website?

It would be great if you could convince her to visit us here and share her insights.

 

[Frankelmick]

Dharma,

I'll see what I can find out

Yes, it would be great to get Karen to post something here. She's wonderful.

Bye for now,

Mick

 

[willow]

Hi all,

Your varied responses are all incredibly helpful, especially Dharma's frustration with my convoluted rationalizations. I'm just emerging from a set of experiences that I *thought* had shown me how to better open up to true growth, and (without selling myself short), your response highlights how neatly many of my older approaches, assumptions and fears have just shapeshifted a bit without having really changed.

I think what I've come up against is a version of "Don't eat the apple from that tree!" I've read a little bit about the evolution of that story from one of empowerment and equality to what it is now. How complexly we can carry forward the tools of our own opression, naively imagining we feel our own power as we wield them.

Nah, that's too intricate and complicated! I'll just let go...

 

[willow]

from "The Botany of Desire, A Plant's Eye View of the World," by Michael Pollan:

"What, then, was the knowledge that God wanted to keep from Adam and Eve in the Garden? Theologians will debate this question without end, but it seems to me the most important answer is hidden in plain sight. The *content* of the knowledge Adam and Eve could gain by tasting of the fruit does not matter nearly as much as its form -- that is, the very fact that there was spiritual knowldege of *any* kind to be had from a tree: from nature. The new faith sough to break the human bond with magic nature, to disenchant the world of plants and animals by directing our attention to a single God in the sky. Yet Jehova couldn't very well pretend the tree of knowledge didn't exist, not when generations of plant-worshiping pagans knew better. So the pagan tree is allowed to grow even in Eden, though ringed around now with a strong taboo. Yes, there *is* spiritual knowledge in nature, the new God is acknowledging, and its temptations are fierce, but I am fiercer still. Yield to it, and you will be punished. So unfolds the drug war's first battle." (p176)

 

[dharma]

Thank you Willow for sharing your thoughts and conclusions on the subject. You enlighten me to the things I already know but from yet another angle. I appreciate it.

It's always hard to predict how another person will respond to my determination and certainty on particular subjects and so I am thankful that my words found an open mind willing to entertain them at least long enough to be understood.

I find it rather interesting that the Eden story found it's way into your deliberations because as I was formulating my *own* thoughts to you, I was reminded of this theme (the snake offering the apple) and I was especially careful that my own thoughts were not getting carried away with their own justifications.

It's always a pleasure to debate ideas with others who are equally open to all possibilites and aware of the many disguised pitfalls.

Dharma

And if you ever have any question about Tarot, don't hesitate to ask.

 

[willow]

Oh, thank you for your kind words, Dharma.

As I sat with this, I did ask the cards what they had to say about it all...and what do you know, my answer was Two of Hearts, reversed.

(I answered the current survey last night, and especially liked the choice "feel amused")

I also consulted the I Ching, with a question based on this experience. I'll take it over to the readings section, but briefly, it was, "What is it that I most consistently refuse to see?" And the answer was 33 to 13, changing at first place (Retreat...Fellowship)