The Artistic and Scientific Perspectives of the I Ching

[joang]

"...any value will be revealed through processing of the unconscious where you 'try' the perspective and start to get 'good insights' into things."

I am finding that to be so, David and Chris. I was doubtful I would find Chris's stuff useful to me unless I was willing and able to commit a great amount of time and effort into learning a mountain of material. Happily, that has not been the case. By actually using his method at his website, I am getting useful results without having to understand his theories; and at the same time, the experiences are helping to make sense of the written material. Very much like the "Lab days" helped make the physics and chemistry textbooks more believabe as well as understandable.

Namaste
Joan

Namaste,
Joan

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Candid,

you wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> Isn't the "unconscious" mind a concept rather than a
> scientific fact?
>

your species-nature is unconscious. your instincts, your immediate reactions to context are 'mindless' as in 'out of personal awareness'. Thus the 'confusion' of the conscious state in trying to interpret events that have occured 'out of consciousness', it is driven to interpret ;-) Libet's work shows our consciousness operating at milliseconds behind 'reality' and we compensate for this distortion reasonably well.

Have a look at some of Jung's work re the 'collective unconscious' etc. Try driving a car by focusing on what you are doing, or try running upstairs and watching your feet at the same time. These are things we have learnt and made 'unconscious'. Have a look at 'body language' and watch the high level of communication going on, communication your consciousness has more than often no awareness of other than sudden 'intuitions' about what someone is trying to say ;-) (even today communications is more non-verbal than verbal - and so the 'issues' that can develop on lists where we cannot see the other person - and so the intense use of 'smileys' etc ;-))

The development of instincts, their refinements using consciousness allows us to work 'unconsciously' in interacting with reality, fit-in with reality 'smoothly'. As such the emergence of what we could call 'proto'-consciousness seems to have been a 'parts processing' mechanism, a management system that enables refinements. In lower life forms awareness seems to be limited to personal awareness that operates in snippets when compared to our 24/7 activity from which, in our species, has developed awareness of other minds (autism includes in its characteristics an 'issue' with this 'theory of mind' processing and some of its characteristics reflect those of lower mammals/birds etc and as such lower development of brain functions. An interesting property is a sense of there being only ONE object and as such an over-sensitivity to harmonics to be used to derive meaning (relational bias) over a poorly developed sense of plurals ;-))

What has emerged from 24/7 processing is individual consciousness that thinks it is a 'whole' rather than a part.

the motives for behaviours are often 'censored' by our education etc in that they are at times too 'animalistic' for some, usually idealists, and the hierachy in development allows for different levels of expression etc, each its own and so 'parallel' expressions. The split brain work, as well as the research and theory of brain modules etc show a combination of systems, local and general, operating as a whole with some systems dominating others etc depending on the context. The overall focus on a distributed system, reflecting recursion at work where parts 'reflect' the whole, allows for a very dynamic, adaptive system.


> I'm getting a bit confused with your position on belief
> systems. I thought you had none, but I see that I was
> mistaken. You do believe after all.
>
> By over classifying you create your own abstract. By
> micro-focusing you create your own view. I think that's very
> creative.
>

I believe in my species. There is no need to go beyond that, just a need to understand the properties and methods of the species given the research data from neurosciences etc and in doing so link consciousness with speciesness and so aid in reducing some of the 'tension' that comes from a naive, still child-like, consciousness trying to come to grips with what is going on ;-)

My integration focus reflects a protection bias over exploitations ;-) Overall Science has its roots in fear in that problem solving stems more from having 'bad sensations' and as such stems for the realm of sensation-seeking. IOW Science creates maps to use as aids in discovering 'out there' as well as avoid elements of 'out there' - the motto being 'be prepared'.

This focus on problem-solving means analysis, or re-analysis, of existing maps and how they relate to current empirical research. That analysis means the introduction of 'new' paradigms where the data does not change, just the interpretations.

The 'base' types of our species seem to be identified in the dichotomy of identity-seeking and sensation-seeking. Recursion of these types introduce the 'fear' angle such that out of sensation-seeking within which is identity-seeking emerges problem-solving. Out of identity seeking within which is sensation-seeking emerges security-seeking, the fact/fiction of Science is replaced by the 'good/bad' or 'right/wrong' of security seeking and so a focus on morality etc.

Both security-seeking and problem-solving (aka solutions-seeking) focus on making sharp distinctions of A/NOT-A and so increase in precision to aid in dealing with 'unknowns'.

In the I Ching we have:

identity-seeking - earth/mountain
security-seeking - water/wind
problem-solving - thunder/fire
sensation-seeking - lake/heaven

These categories etc all stem from what our brains do in mapping reality, use recursion of differentiate/integrate to derive meaning. That is all the IDM material has done - come up with 'blend, bond, bound. bind' together with some analysis of the methodology of recursion and the consequences re relationships etc. As such I can apply recursion ad infinitum or more so to the level where our senses can no longer differentiate, no longer detect PARTS.

This is all GENERAL and as such is a template for particular views, specialist abstractions. The next level of development, after integrating consciousness and speciesness (or more so making the awareness of the issues coming from their interactions) is the development of consciousness, but we need to be able to walk properly before we run.

Chris.

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Joan,

you wrote:
> By actually using his method at his website, I am
> getting useful results without having to understand his
> theories; and at the same time, the experiences are helping
> to make sense of the written material. Very much like the
> "Lab days" helped make the physics and chemistry textbooks
> more believabe as well as understandable.
>

the fun of feedback and so oscillating between theory and practice, and so do exactly what our brains do! ;-)

Chris.

 

[martin]

So what do we have here?
One model that explains everything. One net that catches every fish. One arrow that kills every bird. One ingredient that is part of every soup. One book that formulates the essence of every other book. One engine that powers all cars. The Mother of all sciences. The Golden Key to the universe.
Please feel free to add more metaphors ...

It pervades everywhere and never becomes exhausted.
I do not know its name.
If I am forced to give it a name,
I call it IDM and I name is as supreme ...

 

[candid]

Martin *chuckles*

Chris, thanks for taking the time to explain further. What I read above makes sense to me.

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Martin,

you wrote:
>
> So what do we have here?
> One model that explains everything. One net that catches
> every fish. One arrow that kills every bird. One ingredient
> that is part of every soup. One book that formulates the
> essence of every other book. One engine that powers all
> cars. The Mother of all sciences. The Golden Key to the
> universe.
> Please feel free to add more metaphors ... [ happy ]
>
> It pervades everywhere and never becomes exhausted.
> I do not know its name.
> If I am forced to give it a name,
> I call it IDM and I name is as supreme ...
>

LOL! ;-) - and dont forget "one reich, one fuhrer, one fatherland!" ;-) .. and then there is the "Borg" - "you will be assimilated, resistence is futile"

All the terms you used above reflect terms to describe the 'ONE' but in doing so reflect a REPLACEMENT focus and that is not 'correct'. Every context needs its particular language to communicate that context and so the explicit, clear, ONE is always LOCAL and so differentiates that local context from others but in doing so 'imagines' it is a universal and takes things literally rather than as metaphor. The LOCAL DETAILS are thus 'different' but the GENERAL is 'same' and recognising that simple fact allows us to be more 'discerning' in our labelling as well as in how we react to other species-members where these days it is as if they were 'aliens' etc!

IDM is too general to be 'the explicit ONE', it is implicit, background stuff, humming along aiding in our expressions and we can use it to flesh-out the specialisations that make EACH of them explanations through the particular terms used in the particular context they describe. Thus in the above you can replace "IDM" with "I Ching" but also any other specialisation ;-)

The IDM perspective gained brings out facets of the I Ching and so increases its abilities beyond the 10BC perspective. That does not mean you REPLACE the 10BC perspective but more so integrate that perspective, which is a specialisation, with the one generalisation (IDM) and so 'move on'.

E.g. in quantum mechanics the DATA is still valid, it is the INTERPRETATION that changes a little, we have to compensate for consciousness-nature vs species-nature or else we come across the seemingly paradoxical but that is 'illusion', an artifact of the development of consciousness from speciesness - if you try and span a boundary so you span issues of precision and so a 'dot' for one level is too fine-grained and we get 'wave interference patterns' with our dots when we span boundaries!

When Lao Tsu wrote the Tao Te Ching so he used the SAME set of qualities we all have as SPECIES members but the WORDS were the specialisations and it has been to them we have responded to, resonated with, over the last 3000+ years. The 'tao that cannot be spoken of' reflects the best possible description given the 'Science' of the times to describe the position of our species-nature (and beyond as in Wu Chi), the IMMEDIATE, the AS IS, the parallel interface of species with universe and as such is 'out of consciousness' in that consciousness requires the recognition of the *serial*, to elicit its sense of 'I' etc.

In the particle/wave issues, the wave-interference pattern that we see EMERGES, it is not present immediately, all we see on our photographic plate are the build-up of 'dots' reflecting the passage of an electron/photon etc. The 'wave pattern' reflects the tao that cannot be spoken of, it is implicit, emerging and in doing so is 'confusing' to consciousness!

The moment we focus attention so we move from Wu Chi (no extension, balanced, integrated, no highs no lows, symmetry) to T'ai Chi (grand extension, exaggeration, differentiating, asymmetry/anti-symmetry) and so from the general, diffuse, to a particular WHOLE.

As the 'story goes', keep that T'ai Chi in mind 'long enough' and it will automatically 'collapse' into yin/yang. What is being described here is exactly what our brains do - we move from 'mindless' species-nature to draw out a whole and then to analysis it by over-exaggerating details, the PARTS of that whole; yin/yang consciousness. This dynamic will then 'paint' the T'ai Chi with 'meanings' (and for some even categorise them as 'paradoxical') but in doing so it is no longer the 'original' T'ai Chi, it is a hybrid of 'out there' with 'in here'. It can sink back into the 'void' but when 'recalled' by those who 'coloured' it it will come back as the hybrid, not the original.

These descriptions of Wu Chi/T'Chi dynamics from 400+BC are very good as rich metaphors describing brain dynamics but were limited by not being able to link the descriptions to neurocognitive 'facts' since that has taken an additional 2500+ years to do!

A lot of Eastern meditation exercises focus on removing consciousness and its 'wordyness' and that reflects the 'sense' of integration, of balance, that is present with our species-nature BUT from an evolution context it is consciousness that seems to be fast in causing 'mutations', NEW perspectives derived in realtime as in the lifetime of individuals rather than over generations of a species.

The IDM work strongly grounds that consciousness in our speciesness and we can work from there - thus IDM is focused on a 'species 101' course that we teach to species-members as early as possible, PRIOR to their particularisation by LOCAL education processes where that form of specialisation elicits a lot of 'competitive' perspectives upon the LOCAL differences of species-members as if they are not related!

Chris.

 

[candid]

Chris,

I have a philosopher friend who believes that Nietzsche?s words were gospel. We?d sit on the front porch and he?d look out over the valley, and with sweeping hands would proclaim, ?Will To Power!? I?d smile back and say, softly, ?Tao.? He?d laugh at me as though I was a child, and repeat, ?Will To Power!? I?d smile and whisper, ?tao.?

To me, this is something like what you?re talking about above, at least in the respect that one represents the conscious will, and the other represents the unconscious - species nature, as you call it.

Which one you?re calling, One, is uncertain to me because it takes both of make a whole. Acting solely from one or the other is disunity. One can be logical AND intuitive. One can be powerful AND humble. Bending too far in any one direction will break the tree.

Candid

 

[chrislofting]

Candid,

you wrote:
>
> Which one you?re calling, One, is uncertain to me because it
> takes both of make a whole. Acting solely from one or the
> other is disunity. One can be logical AND intuitive. One can
> be powerful AND humble. Bending too far in any one direction
> will break the tree.
>

..gets into the overall point of IDM. The assertion of the "ONE" is differentiating and so PARTS oriented and so 'delusion'. The species-nature is IMPLIED as the "ONE", but it cannot be spoken of! ;-)

The dimension of precision in the brain spans between the poles of binary/unary. As you head along the dimension to the binary, and so of exaggerations from species-nature, so more words are created, more cuts made, and so more does complexity/chaos comes into our reflections but the binary focus, the binary sequence, is also clear as in A vs NOT-A - the 'problem' is that this is a PARTS perspective!

As you move the other way, towards the unary so you pass through such sequences as the fibonacci, a sequence not so 'A/NOT-A' as the binary but also starting to lose precision until at the level of the unary all is 'one' but there nothing to say it, to distinguish it and that includes the loss of consciousness in that consciousness is more a property of the binary than unary when viewed from a species-nature perspective.

If you focus on the nature of consciousness alone then IT 'feels' whole and can be spoken of, but it is embodied and as such is not 'whole', only 'part' ;-)

As to your comments on bending too far, you can never 'bend to far' and so 'break the tree', you CAN be limited by the range of differentiations/integrations where something appears that in toto is outside of the range of our senses such that we will attempt to interpret it through our senses and so that something will oscillate in category, differentiating one minute, integrating the next and no matter how many categories you create it nevers fits one of them.

the IDM material focuses on all we can ever DESCRIBE qualitatively, the METHODOLOGY we use to make the maps, it is not concerned with the 'truth' of the qualities, just the set of them (since our imagination can create these qualities in a context so there is no definite 'truth', more an exercise in heuristics)

Thus my comments in the past re IDM as a 'meta-ontology', the is-ness of is-ness.

The brain OSCILLATES across the elements of differentiate and integrate (or more so exaggerates out of the species-nature and that appears as an oscillation) and from that emerges composites of differentiate/integrate patterns. Thus as you write, think, speak etc and each act reflects some particular quality derived from the pool of qualities created by the dynamics of integrate/differentiate.

Recent research shows that in this oscillation, individuals can have a bias in the timing such that that anomoly in timing will skew the interpretations of reality, some will be 'manic', intensly focused on spreading their charisma etc, others more 'depressed' etc etc IOW a persona bias can develop - thus personas are made by hardware (neuron anomolies), firmware (hormones, timing issues) and software (influence of context on expression)

We can map this dynamic to the binary sequence of the I Ching which maps to the ordering of categories in the MBTI - IOW we can map personality types to hexagram qualities and those in turn to the set of qualities derived from the oscillation of differentiate/integrate and so Nietzsche and Lao Tsu ;-)

To add some more detail, just as we select ONE point on this dimension spanning differentiate/integrate, the dimension is applied recursively such that zoom-in on one point and you will find elements of the other or more so the WHOLE dimension of integrate/differentiate is applied VERTICALLY from each point. We thus have a mapping that is 2D. Now add-in to this vertical dimension the SAME relationships as the vertical to the horizontal and you have 3D, do it again and we have 4D ;-)

The overall focus is on a superposition of states where CONTEXT collapses that superposition to select ONE of the many states in that superposition to apply to the LOCAL moment.

The species-level brain is A AND B, the consciousness-level brain is A XOR B, or more so A IMP B (this reflects the asymmetry we see in the brain, where we use probabilities reasoning etc)

as I emphasise in the IDM material, we are creating a hybrid reality that is a mix of the materialism of the Universe and the idealism of our consciousness and as such the mix of logics (analytical with dialectical) etc etc and that leads us into refining our intuitions (that are instinct/habit sourced, a parallel function). IOW the Westerner can benefit from Lao Tsu just as the Easterner can benefit from Nietzsche ;-) OR, more so, they can both benefit from consideration of the IDM material and so ICPlus in that both sides will find their perspectives 'enhanced' ;-)

Chris

 

[candid]

Chris,

Thanks for your further explanation. Its reminds of what a conversation between Einstein and Lao Tzu might sound like. Seriously, there is a distinct reverence for truth, and also scientific indifference to what you wrote. I'm not sure there's anything revolutionary about it however, or any exclusive vantage point that hasn't been expressed in some way or other by various other belief systems. You present a scientific bias of reality, which at least addresses the more spiritual experiences rather than simply denying them. Of course I doubt you would call it spiritual, but you address it nonetheless.

I know you don?t talk much about "you", the person, and if you don't wish to answer this that's ok. Why do you do this? I mean, to so passionately develop and then teach this IDM material? What's in it for you? What personal satisfaction do you derive from it?

Candid

 

[davidl]

Hi Chris,

Quote

"To add some more detail, just as we select ONE point on this dimension spanning differentiate/integrate, the dimension is applied recursively such that zoom-in on one point and you will find elements of the other or more so the WHOLE dimension of integrate/differentiate is applied VERTICALLY from each point. We thus have a mapping that is 2D. Now add-in to this vertical dimension the SAME relationships as the vertical to the horizontal and you have 3D, do it again and we have 4D ;-) "


Can we assume that if there is consciousness in 3d world that consciousness can exist in 5d or 6d world?

I have always felt that if time is the fourth dimension then the fifth is 'out of time' or the 'master of time'.
This is where I believe were headed. This is where I believe the Yi is taking me. Thats where it lives for me.
Mankind can go on trying to understand its species nature, but one of its opportunities is to make an attempt to contact or imagine or create or purely understand the 'specific' consciousness of higher dimensions.
This I see as a scientific, artistic and religious pursuit.
Is the key to eternity, gene therapy or time mastery?

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Candid,

you wrote:

>
> Chris,
>
> Thanks for your further explanation. Its reminds of what a
> conversation between Einstein and Lao Tzu might sound like.
> Seriously, there is a distinct reverence for truth, and also
> scientific indifference to what you wrote. I'm not sure
> there's anything revolutionary about it however, or any
> exclusive vantage point that hasn't been expressed in some
> way or other by various other belief systems.

the point is that through IDM we establish a clear link to unconscious patterns of meanings and in particular the 'hard coding' of the I Ching. IOW we ground such concepts in our species-nature not as 'random' products of our consciousness-nature. Furthermore, we identify clearly the METAPHORIC perspective we have on reality where the passions in defending/asserting expressions, and so of literal-mindedness, are 'illusions' and as such we can tone-down the idealisation.

The idea in IDM is a 'species 101' course as well as a foundation for AI systems to derive a sense of meaning. Understand the species-nature and we can 'defuse' some of the 'intensity' in expression of our consciousness-nature, a nature that until more recent times was 'dissociated' from its species-ness other than paying lip-service to the recognition of our species-ness.

> You present a
> scientific bias of reality, which at least addresses the
> more spiritual experiences rather than simply denying them.
> Of course I doubt you would call it spiritual, but you
> address it nonetheless.
>

but I do call it spiritual - see the IDM material where the source of the spiritual appears to be rooted in our species-nature as a form of instincts aimed at protection. The problems we have in general are in the over-exaggeration of the sense of the spiritual, its recruitment as a tool for transcendence, something to exploit and so focus on competitive exchanges, as compared to the 'usual' form that focuses on integration to protect, as a form of 'background hum' that links all species-members and as such is something we all can rest upon in 'down' times ;-)

The development of a hybrid reality means the mixing of our consciousness (idealist) and our speciesness (materialist) and so TWO forms of 'everyday', that of the Universe and that of our species. The former is rooted in 'mindless' dynamics, the latter is rooted in 'mindful' dynamics and as such contains a strong spiritual element, an exaggerated spiritual element.

As covered in IDM, the more you 'cut', the more binary the thinking so the more borders you create so the more unstable things become. The up side is that this can be creative, but, as it reflects hexagram 01 so it is also highly destructive - you can get burnt by the light just as you can be smothered by the dark.

01 The Creative, Heaven
Assertion (Single-Mindedness, Self-contained, totalising)
In a context of perseverence we utilise singlemindedness.

"CH'IEN: spirit power, creative and destructive; unceasing forward motion; dynamic, enduring, untiring; firm, stable; heaven, soverign, father; also: dry-up, parched, exhausted, cleared away. The ideogram: sprouts or vapors rising from the ground and sunlight, both fecundating moisture and scortching drought." ERANOS p94


> I know you don?t talk much about "you", the person, and if
> you don't wish to answer this that's ok. Why do you do this?
> I mean, to so passionately develop and then teach this IDM
> material? What's in it for you? What personal satisfaction
> do you derive from it?
>

by uncovering the generic roots of meaning so we can 'refine' our species and our consciousness. simple. IDM is a tool, a guide in fleshing-out the properties and methods of specialisations and as such enables the quick pickup of details that usually require the learning of a language that is self-referencing. With IDM we recognise that each specialisation has its own terms for describing the linking of a set of generic qualities that is INVARIENT at the species-nature level with a particular context.

I am doing a paper at the moment covering the development of a 'logic of relationships' based on the IDM/ICPlus material where that material is applicable to ANY specialisation founds on the use of dichotomies (and, as such, on ALL high precision specialisations where the precision is on A/NOT-A distinctions)

The IDM material, as far as I know based on my wide reading, appears to be one of the first 'good' models of brain function in the context of generic meaning processing. As an AID in fleshing-out specialisations is strongly links consciousness and speciesness, identifying their differences (and so competitive exchanges) as well as their samenesses (and so cooperative exchanges).

The IDM material 'resolves' such issues as the apparent 'paradox' of wave/particle duality etc etc and as such opens-up new areas for investigation, and more so the re-ivestigation of old areas ;-) as such it is a bit of a pardigm shift where the data does not change, just the interpretations and they are GENERAL where specialisations then refine things further.

You will not find, as far as I am aware, any material that comes close to the integration of specialisations into one generic form where that form can be used to extend those specialisations and also 'ground' them in our species-ness not in some 'external force' etc etc

The reason being that scientists refuse to get involved with the esoteric (the expression frightens them off in that they still dont get the metaphor base) and the occultists refuse to get involved with the scientific!

The 'truth' of the matter, as far as our development as a species is concerned is we need to understand the art of our science just as we need to understand the science of our art. IDM allows you to do that without disspearing into the 'gagaland' of too many labels ;-)

By the use of IDM as an aid so we can develop a more discerning perspective, reduce the cuttings to 'quality cuts' and so start to re-integrate all of the parts into a whole and in doing so re-stabilise ourselves, and in particular, our species.

Chris.

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Davidl

you wrote:
> Can we assume that if there is consciousness in 3d world
> that consciousness can exist in 5d or 6d world?
>

who knows? ;-)

my particular focus is on the species-nature/consciousness-nature interface. When you move past the physics of 4d one gets into high detail areas that seem to reflect parts being treated as if wholes etc. - but then we do that in the I Ching where a hexagram reflects 6 dimensions, a dodecagram 12! - iow we move into FEELINGS, holistic processes/concepts, intuitions etc, all of which we can refine through parts analysis.

> I have always felt that if time is the fourth dimension
> then the fifth is 'out of time' or the 'master of time'.
> This is where I believe were headed. This is where I
> believe the Yi is taking me. Thats where it lives for me.
> Mankind can go on trying to understand its species nature,
> but one of its opportunities is to make an attempt to
> contact or imagine or create or purely understand the
> 'specific' consciousness of higher dimensions.

this may be so for you in particular but in general the focus is currently on trying to understand and get along with fellow species-members. A LOT of the 'issues' we have today stem from idealism out of touch with its roots and so treating fellow-species members as if aliens and in need of erradication!

> This I see as a scientific, artistic and religious pursuit.

ok.. but IMHO I would not differentiate religion from scientific/artistic in that it is more of a discipline than a methodology. Thus we can have the dichotomy of Science/Religion that covers these as INSTITUTIONS within each of which operate scientific and artistic methods in interpretations.

'mastery' of time requires one to be 'above' it and that perspective reflects an idealist perspective and idealism stems from high energy focus that elicits subjective time distortion, and so the impoverishment of thermodynamic time to mechanistic time and so allowance for time to be considered 'masterable' ;-) (that sense of the 'eternal' that comes with this sort of subjective time distortion)

thermodynamic time is species-nature time and as such 'out of consciousness' in that our consciousness works more with, is more conscious of, mechanistic time. SO the issue here is which 'time' do you imagine mastering? ;-)

to master thermodynamics would require stepping 'outside' of the universe wouldnt it?

Chris