The difference

candid · Nov 10, 2004

Pakua,

Pardon. I've been here quite awhile and I've yet to witness anyone "forced out".

If I leave this community, is it because I was forced out through someone?s words or actions? That would be a pretty weak excuse. People makes decisions as to what's best for them at a given time. "Times change, and with them their demands."

There have been a few that have regretfully left. My idea of who was most valuable probably won?t match those you have in mind. But to me, they were vital members who gave of themselves consistently. Not the ?flash in the pan? types ? both new and experts - but the real heroes who have committed themselves to this community. Most of those left long ago, and I miss them greatly. But no one forced them out.

I admit, that like Demitra, I am very tired of the effort it takes to continue on here. In a real time environment, anonymous voices don?t just come out of the wall, challenging legitimate identities with personally critical remarks. That?s not how the real world operates. But it is here. That doesn?t exactly make for an unbiased and level playing field. But this is my choice to make. No one is forcing me to do anything.

Candid

Sparhawk · Nov 11, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!>Quote:

you mean Dij, not Martin, right? <!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops, yes. Geeze! I can even get people with actual names straight...

L

Sparhawk · Nov 11, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!>Quote:

I hope there's more of that fun stuff to come. <!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you know... There is a void now in the forum. To paraphrase Joey Tribbiani: "howya doin'?

L

candid · Nov 12, 2004

Jeff.. thanks.

cal val · Nov 16, 2004

Luis...

Are you one of the 115,000 Americans who went to the Canadian immigration website the day after the election?

"We started last year getting a lot of calls from Americans dissatisfied with the way the country is going," Kischer says. "Then after the election, it's been crazy up here. The Canadian immigration Web site had 115,000 hits the day after the election -- from the U.S. alone. We usually only get 20,000 hits."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/11/15/canadian.welcome.ap/index.html

Love,

Val

bradford_h · Nov 16, 2004

Sparhawk · Nov 16, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!>Quote:

Are you one of the 115,000 Americans who went to the Canadian immigration website the day after the election?<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, but it goes to show a very common feeling... Woohoo!! Four more years of joy!! And boots, bullets, bastardization of international law and slow suppression of civil rights... I've always been convinced that the people of any democratic country has the government that they most deserve. What's happening is a good example of where otherwise good dharma becomes collective karma. I've no doubts Bush was the rightful winner by popular vote but it makes me wonder where the people that chose him is headed, taking everybody else along with them...

Luis

cal val · Nov 16, 2004

I don't have to immigrate. I live in Baja Canada...

<CENTER>

</CENTER>
Love,

Val

Sparhawk · Nov 17, 2004

So you want to renounce your citizenship, eh?

Here are your options: http://harpers.org/ElectingToLeave.html

Forget it! I worked to hard to get mine to throw it out the window... I would vote them out, though...

Luis

Sparhawk · Nov 19, 2004

Sorry everybody dot com

Click the picture... Mine should be there after it is approved...

Luis

candid · Dec 2, 2004

Thanks, God. Look forward to our chat!

pakua · Dec 2, 2004

" Some would think liberal-Bush-hating is a prerequisite to using and understand the I Ching and the way of Tao, or Buddhism, or any other enlightenment path. Nonsense. "

Candid, I had to read your sentence a few times before I could understand it, and even now I'm not sure I'm understanding it properly.

When I analayze it, it sounds as if you're saying, some of us on this forum think that we need to hate Bush in order for us to progress on the path to enlightenment. I'm glad you recognize that that would be nonsense. But perhaps you were just being sarcastic.

I don't know who you're thinking of, but it seems to me that if I was the intended target, it would be kind of insulting. I think most of us here are sincerely on one path or another, and to be told something like that is denigrating.

On the other hand, maybe you just meant to remind people that they should strive for balance in their views, or something like that. It's hard to tell because of the tone.

martin · Dec 2, 2004

As far as I can tell there is indeed a correlation between a "left" political orientation and an inclination toward spirituality. Spirituality outside the box of traditional Christianity, that is. Traditional Christians (including the "reborn") tend to be right wing.
Again, as far as I can tell. I didn't research this. Shame on me .. anyway, "left" and "right" are vague (outdated?) concepts and judging from the taste Candid's statement is not entirely free from polemic pepper.

But basically, yes, there is a correlation, I think ...

candid · Dec 2, 2004

Pakua,

There was no "tone" whatsoever. I stated it as a mere observation. You are familiar with the term ? projection?

"Some" refers to those who visit this site out of curiosity, and also to members who are less vocal about their own political ideologies. These include persons of different political persuasions, including (believe it or not) conservatives, moderates, independents, etc. When such a person sees the consistently inane Bush hating crap that goes on here, it's likely they'll prejudge the entire community as a closed society of liberals. It is evident, at least to myself, that if one takes a stand that is in anyway distinctly non-liberal, they are treated as the enemy. One only needs see the hostility Val has demonstrated to understand what I'm saying. However, not all are so outspoken. Many more just put such a one on mental ignore; even when such a one tries to engage them in simple non-political matters. Factionalism by any other name is a still a discriminatory clique. And it is these same people who moan and whine about unfair discrimination, which of course is Bush's fault too.

Can you understand how "some" would choose to go their way and not bother to join or participate in such a community as this? No doubt, that would make a few here happy, but it doesn't make it right.

Candid

candid · Dec 2, 2004

Martin, that is so unfair. Granted, most who are interested in the more esoteric wings of spirituality lean toward the left. But to automatically assume that anything other is synonymous with Christian fundamentalism is really living within your own closed mind. Is this any less dogmatic than a "right-winged Christian fundamentalist??

Polemic pepper? Why? Because I state what isn't popular here? So did Socrates, Jesus and Gandhi. What's your point?

hilary · Dec 2, 2004

Hm... I'd have thought it was more 'normal' in Europe to associate Christianity with the left? Or maybe that's just the Church of England, whose representatives often make liberal noises.

I can't remember the details, but there was a news story when I was small about Margaret Thatcher giving a talk to some gathering of church leader) (maybe Scottish ones?), and being presented afterwards with helpful leaflets about Christian ethics. That's the kind of thing I mean.

Sparhawk · Dec 2, 2004

Candid, you are just jealous... With Kerry gone and Republican control of both the Senate and the House you have nothing good to pick your teeth with. Nobody to focus some healthy "bashing". On the other hand, hey!, Bush-Bashing IS what we on the other side are left with. We have foder for fun and grief for years to come. So, eat your heart out!!

LOL

For the informed "United Liberals" of this forum, here are some links...

Interesting article. On Bush hating

All Hat No Cattle

Bush Hating resources

Luis

PS: BTW, I agree with Martin's assessment. There is a pattern of liberal thinking among people that leans towards spiritual pursuits. Conservatives have more of a tendency towards fundamentalist thinking (i.e. Christian, Muslim, or whatever)

Sparhawk · Dec 2, 2004

BTW, I stress the word "PATTERN". It does not mean there are no exceptions. I would certainly recognize one such an exception in you, Candid. If you see yourself as a Conservative, that is.

Luis

candid · Dec 2, 2004

Hilary, I believe your observation is correct, even today, even within our current time, and even in the US. There are several denominations which are equally divided in their political census.

I feel that the entire Christian faith is too often lumped into one mindless ball of human distinction. I personally know Christians who are warm and deeply compassionate human beings. And they are not shallow by virtue of their faith. Yet they are often automatically categorized as gun-toting, bible-thumping, knuckle-dragging sub-humans, by those who see through the crack of a door.

candid · Dec 2, 2004

Luis, see what assumptions you?ve made? It?s obvious you have never heard me confront ?the right? with equal conviction, and a plea for equanimity.

martin · Dec 2, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!>Quote:

But to automatically assume that anything other is synonymous with Christian fundamentalism ..<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey! I didn't say that! I talked in terms of correlations. It's a statistical thing. A (significant) correlation between A and B only means that A and B go together more often than could be expected based on mere chance. It doesn't mean that they always go together. It's only a tendency. For example, according to the medics there is a correlation between smoking and heart diseases. Yet many smokers don't have problems with their heart and many people who have a heart disease don't smoke.

No polemic pepper? Well, sorry, must have been my projection then.

And popular, unpopular, I don't care, please speak!

Sparhawk · Dec 2, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!>Quote:

It?s obvious you have never heard me confront ?the right? with equal conviction, and a plea for equanimity.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alas, Candid, you are correct... You must be saving the best for last...

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!>Quote:

Yet they are often automatically categorized as gun-toting, bible-thumping, knuckle-dragging sub-humans,<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a Christian. Apostolic Roman Catholic, to be specific. Of course, a very liberal one at that (for example I defend a woman's right to choose what to do with their bodies, from tatoos to piercing to whatever they carry in their spare room). It goes to show that within the flock there are many shades of grey.

My issue is, of course, not with the warm and compassionate ones. It is with those that you can see and prove that are "gun-toting, bible-thumping, knuckle-dragging sub-humans".

Luis

martin · Dec 2, 2004

I agree Hilary, there is a "left" current in European Christianity. Or at least, there was.
My impression is that this current was quite strong in the seventies and eighties and that it has become much weaker since then.
But as I already said, "left" and "right" are vague terms. And, yes Candid, what is "Christian"?

candid · Dec 2, 2004

Luis, sorry to disappoint you. There is no best for last. This is the position I've held for several years, consistantly. I've been classified as a neo- conservative for not buying in wholesale to what you call "United Liberals" of this forum, and elsewhere. There are fewer cases, though no less accurate, where I've been called a left wing liberal, by the extreme right. In fact, it's ironic that my interest in I Ching is sometimes sited as defining my liberalism. Which is also nonsense.

candid · Dec 2, 2004

Martin, what is a Taoist? A Buddhist? A Muslim? A Jew? Can you define a person by their concept of God so easily? I can't.

martin · Dec 2, 2004

I can't even define myself and why should I?
My spiritual background is Sufism, am I a Sufi?
Nowadays I feel very much at home in the world of Zen. But I never practised Zen. Am I a Zen Buddhist?
Go figure!

Sparhawk · Dec 2, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!>Quote:

In fact, it's ironic that my interest in I Ching is sometimes sited as defining my liberalism.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aha!! There you go. That was the point I was trying to make on perceptions. Thank you!

Your question to Martin: <BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!>Quote:

Can you define a person by their concept of God so easily?<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think anybody can when it comes to individuals. For a bigger statistical set there is a word that gives an accurate approximation:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!>Quote:

Main Entry: dog·ma
Pronunciation: 'dog-m&, 'däg-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural dogmas also dog·ma·ta /-m&-t&/
Etymology: Latin dogmat-, dogma, from Greek, from dokein to seem -- more at DECENT
1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Luis

PS: the moment we start being called "Yijingists" I'm leaving this forum.

martin · Dec 2, 2004

To be a cat or not to be a cat, that is not the question, said the cat.
The question is, are you a mouse or are you not a mouse?

Sparhawk · Dec 2, 2004

candid · Dec 2, 2004

Luis,

"Aha!! There you go. That was the point I was trying to make on perceptions. Thank you!"

You're welcome. It also makes my point: Both sides are prejudiced.

The difference

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