The Five Worst Translations of Hexagram Names

[sooo]

Hi Harmen-
You have to feel yourself getting old, first. It's that panicky feeling that you'll never get the job done before you die that pushes you into print. Then, once it's in print you have to defend it. That's where the certainty comes from. Lucky for you, you still have some time.

The truth revealed.

I'm not the technical master that you or Harmen are, but from years of gently grazing on Harmen's scholarship, I seriously doubt his old age will crystallize his thinking.

 

[hmesker]

Hi Harmen-
You have to feel yourself getting old, first. It's that panicky feeling that you'll never get the job done before you die that pushes you into print. Then, once it's in print you have to defend it. That's where the certainty comes from. Lucky for you, you still have some time.

I do hope that confidence in my own work and the choices that I make is not decided by my age but by knowing I have done everything possible to arrive at the most plausible conclusions... Having my findings in print makes it even worse - facts change, there are new developments, new findings, new research, new sources, making the printed work outdated. The way I translate the Yi now is entirely different from the way I translated it 20 years ago. My sources change, my insights change with it.... that will not change when I get older. I do hope that in the future I will still be able to say, "Knowing this I see I got it wrong. Oops." On the other hand, a bit more confidence would also be welcome.

 

[boyler]

... IMHO these are not the five worst translations of the sixliners' names, only Brad's opinion these are the five worst translations of the sixliners' names, and that's something completely different ...
... real translators (not the copycats) who translated them, probably (hopefully) gave their best to translate them, so their translations could be only more or less accurate, more or less happy, or more or less up to the point, according to translators' own understanding of the text ...
... besides, in the received Changes there are two more texts that further explain the names of the sixliners ... and this, accompanied with the historical context, can give us more accurate insight of the sixliners' names, as well as the text as a whole ...

 

[hilary]

... IMHO these are not the five worst translations of the sixliners' names, only Brad's opinion these are the five worst translations of the sixliners' names, and that's something completely different ...

Well, yes, I think that was implied. But I agree with many of them, except I would remove 'Army', which is a nice straightforward translation (not the translator's problem if we think of the wrong kind of army), and maybe replace it with 'The Taming Power of the Small' (I think 'small' is more of an adverb than an actor in that one).

Though come to think of it, why pick on W/B? What about the well-known 'Rat' hexagram, always one of Brad's favourites?

... besides, in the received Changes there are two more texts that further explain the names of the sixliners ... and this, accompanied with the historical context, can give us more accurate insight of the sixliners' names, as well as the text as a whole ...

Which are you thinking of?

 

[svenrus]

From post #62 this thread:

......Having my findings in print makes it even worse - facts change, there are new developments, new findings, new research, new sources, making the printed work outdated. The way I translate the Yi now is entirely different from the way I translated it 20 years ago. My sources change, my insights change with it....

Printed books can be found for years to come, homepages on the internet maybe not.....

 

[Liselle]

As an aside, this discussion reminds me of diagrams like the below (modified from here).

This is also called having processes (which could include the naming of things) "in control and capable." "In control" basically means stable - are most of the arrows clustered rather tightly around the same spot? How much significant variation is there in names from translator to translator? "Capable" means are you hitting the correct target? If your arrows are clustered closely together, but they're all at the edge, you're doing something fundamentally wrong and you won't have a suitable result. Many people copying Wilhelm and naming hexagram 11 as "Peace" might be an example of that.

What would we really prefer, anyway, for hexagram names? What would we consider "in control and capable" to be, in I Ching translations? Would we like most translators to pretty much agree with each other? Consensus might be good (except if it's a hex 11-type situation), if it would reduce the likelihood of someone's only source being wildly wrong.

But if we have (and use) a comprehensive list like Bradford put together, maybe a little more spread would actually be helpful, as it might be more broadly descriptive.

 

[Liselle]

(BTW is there a tutorial on how to use images? Every time I try it seems to be utter trial and error. The first couple times I did this, despite clicking "inline," it displayed as a link. Now it's displaying inline (somehow), but with an "Attached Images" label that I don't see on other people's uploaded pictures. )

 

[sooo]

What about the well-known 'Rat' hexagram, always one of Brad's favourites?

I must have been dozing (old age you know), who or what is this well known 'Rat'?

I've actually no problem with any of the listed 5 worst names of hexagrams. I've seen worse and those which I think are better, but I've lived with most of them since the early 60's. My understanding of them have changed, but I can still understand how those titles were arrived at, including the now dreaded Peace* for 11. I make the same mental adjustments for any name given to capsulize a hexagram. If all that was needed was a name to designate meanings, we'd have a very tiny Book of Changes.

*A hexagram name doesn't always designate the current condition. Sometimes it shows the way to ones desired end. Three examples that come immediately to mind are Increase, Innocence, and Peace.

Regarding that target illustration, I'm not a very good archer but I am a well accomplished firearms marksman. It's a fact that the point of focus must neither be on the target nor the rear sight (representing our own viewing point) but on the front site: that point of reference which stands between the eye of the shooter and the target. It's more difficult than it sounds since the eye is capable of focusing on only one of the three. The other two are blurred.

That should serve as an analogy when selecting an accurate title for a hexagram, if indeed it's that important. I personally think it can create more confusion than clarity.

 

[hilary]

I must have been dozing (old age you know), who or what is this well known 'Rat'?

Richard Rutt's name for Hexagram 15. You know, because the ancient Chinese found it so tremendously useful, when asking about how to conduct warfare or marriage or harvests, to get a response like 'Rat'.

Or how about Hexagram 14, 'large, there'?

 

[sooo]

Richard Rutt's name for Hexagram 15. You know, because the ancient Chinese found it so tremendously useful, when asking about how to conduct warfare or marriage or harvests, to get a response like 'Rat'.

Or how about Hexagram 14, 'large, there'?

Thanks, but it's still over my head. I'll have to read up on the significance of a rat to early Chinese, maybe astrology? There must be some better explanation somewhere, unless Mr. Rutt forgot to take his meds that day. Is there any connection to the five-skilled rodent in 35.4?

lol, large, there - 14. Well, at least I can MAKE sense of that one, but it's a strange name. I think I didn't miss out on much by not studying Rutt, if those are the best he's got. Wonder why these didn't make Brad's list? Maybe because his name wasn't Wilhelm or Baynes?

 

[bradford]

Wonder why these didn't make Brad's list? Maybe because his name wasn't Wilhelm or Baynes?

You just can't help yourself. And you're not likely to seek help either.

 

[sooo]

You just can't help yourself. And you're not likely to seek help either.

You could have just answered the question. Seemed reasonable enough. Why didn't you choose RATS in your list of 5?

Anyway: Rats

 

[bradford]

You could have just answered the question. Seemed reasonable enough. Why didn't you choose RATS in your list of 5?
Anyway: Rats

If you didn't think the word "common" was implied then insert it between worst and translations.

 

[sooo]

If you didn't think the word "common" was implied then insert it between worst and translations.

I didn't but shall, and thank you. It does clarify things.

Sorry if I seem unfairly tough on you, Brad, but someone needs to be, given your toughness on others. Besides, with your large fan club, a little rat like me shouldn't mean very much.

 

[hilary]

Ah, yes, 'common'. True, 'Rats' have never quite caught on like 'Humility', so they haven't done much harm, bless their little furry socks.

OK, Bruce, rat primer. The name of Hexagram 15, minus a radical, includes among its meanings the Great Grey Hamster. This looks basically like a giant rat. Apparently they would live round human habitations in deep burrows, and are confident types - more likely to confront you on their hind legs in a human-like posture and squeal than to scuttle off like 35.4's rodent. (In fact, they probably eat 35.4's rodent.)

Some find them helpful in interpretation, some don't. I find them immensely helpful. I think the experience of 15 is basically that of rounding a corner and coming face to face with a rodent that's startlingly like you. 'Look,' it says, 'here you are - just another smallish animal.'

I wouldn't be without Rutt. He doesn't seem to believe the book is meant to make any sense, but his footnotes and foreword cram in a wealth of background information: not just the rat, but relevant quotations from the Songs, accounts of ancient divination, just basic stuff on how people lived. Also, I really like his translations of the Wings, especially the Dazhuan - very direct and readable.

 

[boyler]

... besides, in the received Changes there are two more texts that further explain the names of the sixliners ... and this, accompanied with the historical context, can give us more accurate insight of the sixliners' names, as well as the text as a whole ...

Which are you thinking of?

... 'Sequence of the Sixliners' ('Xu Gua', 序卦) and 'Mixed Sixliners' ('Za Gua', 雜卦) ... while the historical context is the end of Shang (商)/Yin (殷) dynasty and beginning of Zhou (周) dynasty ...

 

[sooo]

Hilary, that is interesting, and it can relate to my own idea of 15 when said in that way. I don't see the shy and self debasing character in 15, though I once did. I think that's probably true for many, not helped by the term humility.

I don't have difficulty with the term modesty, primarily due to my view of what modesty means to me, which is not to be confused with humility. In that same way, I don't believe Wilhelm intended modesty to resemble humility either. One of his definitions of modesty, which I've always liked, is to make something which is difficult to achieve appear easy and natural. I truly like that idea, and I can see a relative meaning to Rat as you've just described Rutt's meaning. Quite the opposite of shy, yet not boastful either, just standing his or her own ground confidentially. Like Popeye the Sailor as opposed to Bluto. So when I write my IC I shall call h15 Popeye.

 

[bradford]

I wouldn't be without Rutt. He doesn't seem to believe the book is meant to make any sense, but his footnotes and foreword cram in a wealth of background information: not just the rat, but relevant quotations from the Songs, accounts of ancient divination, just basic stuff on how people lived. Also, I really like his translations of the Wings, especially the Dazhuan - very direct and readable.

I'll second that motion on his notes and Wings translation. Shocking, really, with the quality of his Wings, considering what a meaningless hash he made of the Zhouyi translation.

 

[heylise]

AskingQuestions: I have a question. What is it about the flower, that gives it it's power? How does a flower work?
(this is a trick question! so answer thoughtfully

)

The energy of 22 is inside. It is the outward appearance of this energy, and Yi talks about where it is visible in daily life (a scientific lecture on inner energy is not very helpful in readings). The hexagram is not about the appearances themselves, but rather an advice how to use them, or recognize them, how to be led by the inner value and not to stumble over the apprearances themselves. “The noble one has insight in many people's affairs without daring to judge in legal cases”. To call it adornment does not do justice to it, but “about adornment and how to deal with it” might be closer.
Everything which happens has an appearance. Not necessarily beautiful, but it does tell a kind of story. The man who looks trustworthy and then rolls your wallet, the girl who behaves badly and is inside just lost and insecure, the horse with a lame foot – is it seriously injured or does it only need a new shoe… every day, maybe every moment, we have to judge something. We have to be careful not to go by appearances only, how useful they might be, but to see the reality of them. Appearances tell about the inside, or they can obscure what really goes on.
So 22 has two sides: to give things their right appearance, and also to look carefully at appearances.

忠誠盛於內，賁於外...
When loyalty and sincerity become complete within, they become apparent without...
(Xunzi, tr. John Knoblock)

Brad: .. the surfaces of things, as is implied by the meaning of the word bi (adornment),
is the subject matter or theme of all six lines. Any core meaning has to be a key
to understanding all six of the lines.

When it is not entirely clear what bi as name means, then it is equally unclear what bi in the lines means. Applying one meaning for the other is a circle.
(I didn’t yet read the last posts, so maybe I miss some replies. And all of what I say is just IMO)

 

[anemos]

In the case of hexagram 22, the Mawangdui text uses fan 蘩 as the name of the hexagram. The pronunciation of this character pushes the sound of the character 賁 in the direction of the sound fen, which, besides bi, is another sound for the character. With that pronunciation 賁 is a loan for fen 奮, 'to express, to make visible'.

.

Thats the best way to express 22- it doesn't limit it or add negative connotations. and it not opposing Whilhelm's "grace" if someone can take this world free of any secular connotations.

Asking about my mindmapping note-taking got 22 once. And nowadays doing my homework as a note taking method I do visual-note-taking. Its adornment , its beautifying, is stressing the meanings and relationships between subjects with colors, symbols, signs drawings cartoons. HAve been thinking 22 all the time.

Its about make visible in many different ways. It about the power of a stimuli to excite sensors, its about perception, attention, stripping, digging to find whats beneath. The energies, not in a " spiritual" kind of thinking but the energies, the waves of sound , the light excites our eyes, the shortcomings of our attention , the biases come together with our perception.

To Translate-interpret is 22.

I have no problem with the word grace for . In our country we don't pay much attention with the secular meaning . Its a very shortsighted view. Grace its about charis- charisma- " show your chares" we say, show your essence, make it visible. The usage from the Christian church of the word serves other purpose, but its also about presence.

 

[anemos]

cross posting with lise

 

[anemos]

About "appearance" and "essence"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtsfidRq2tw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

 

[hilary]

... 'Sequence of the Sixliners' ('Xu Gua', 序卦) and 'Mixed Sixliners' ('Za Gua', 雜卦) ... while the historical context is the end of Shang (商)/Yin (殷) dynasty and beginning of Zhou (周) dynasty ...

Well! I thought I was the only one who ever took those two Wings seriously. I have a strong feeling that their authors knew a lot but were just jotting down a quick mnemonic for their students.

...Quite the opposite of shy, yet not boastful either, just standing his or her own ground confidentially. Like Popeye the Sailor as opposed to Bluto. So when I write my IC I shall call h15 Popeye.

I shall look forward to it. (Now, which gua is Olive?)

I'll second that motion on his notes and Wings translation. Shocking, really, with the quality of his Wings, considering what a meaningless hash he made of the Zhouyi translation.

Maybe he believed people developed the power of coherent thought at some moment post-Zhouyi and pre-Wings?

Thats the best way to express 22- it doesn't limit it or add negative connotations. and it not opposing Whilhelm's "grace" if someone can take this world free of any secular connotations.

Asking about my mindmapping note-taking got 22 once. And nowadays doing my homework as a note taking method I do visual-note-taking. Its adornment , its beautifying, is stressing the meanings and relationships between subjects with colors, symbols, signs drawings cartoons. HAve been thinking 22 all the time.

Its about make visible in many different ways. It about the power of a stimuli to excite sensors, its about perception, attention, stripping, digging to find whats beneath. The energies, not in a " spiritual" kind of thinking but the energies, the waves of sound , the light excites our eyes, the shortcomings of our attention , the biases come together with our perception.

To Translate-interpret is 22.

I have no problem with the word grace for . In our country we don't pay much attention with the secular meaning . Its a very shortsighted view. Grace its about charis- charisma- " show your chares" we say, show your essence, make it visible. The usage from the Christian church of the word serves other purpose, but its also about presence.

I do like 22 for mindmapping - that's brilliant. Not only because it's important to adorn your mindmap, but because they are supposed to make it possible to relate to the ideas. Absolutely 22.

'Secular' is the opposite of 'ecclesiastical', by the way - but your meaning is clear. And now you have me reaching for the dictionary to look up 'charisma'…

If we wanted a Christian word for 22, it could almost be 'sacrament'. I remember reciting in Sunday school that a sacrament was 'an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace'. That's 22. (But then so is branding, and suitors, and so on.)

 

[knotxx]

The ceremony doesn't make anything happen unless you mean in a religious sense...which would depend on your religious views I suppose. I mean I see what happens is that legally there is a contract and so the person's legal and social status changes on being married, but that doesn't mean any other change really happens within them...unless you're religious/spiritual beliefs tell you something has happened inwardly of course.

I side very strongly with hilary on this. A marriage is like a promise--as hilary said, it's performative language. It is of course possible to love someone deeply and truly and live with them and all that your whole life--but if you haven't spoken some sort of marriage vow, then it is not "a marriage."

It's like a promise: If you haven't spoken the words "I promise," then you cannot keep a promise, because no promise exists.

Or: you can tell the truth, but if you haven't said the words "I swear" than you are not under oath. Telling truth and being under oath are quite different things.

And you may say "well I'd rather have the deep true love and living together than the ceremony" and so would I, if I could only have one. But if I could have both, I'd rather have both. In the US people have risked a lot, up to their actual lives, for the right to be able to make that marriage-promise -- in the 60s when the issue was mixed-race marriages in the South, and now when the issue is gay marriage. It is more than empty ceremony, at least to many people, or it wouldn't stir such deep passions.

Hex 22 makes me think about naming, in the sense that, as some famous poet once said, a good poem names something that has never been named before. A poem IS a name. (Another poet, asked "what does your poem mean?" "Lady, if I could have found a better way to say it, I would have.")

But a great poem is not a way to settle legal disputes, obviously--although Keats nudged at this question with his extremely unsettling line "beauty is truth, truth beauty." That line is often dismissed as hippy-dippy nonsense, but Keats was not a hippy, and his short life was filled with terrible truths, including teenage years nursing his mother and brother during their slow deaths from tuberculosis. I think Keats must have had a grand and severe definition of beauty that has nothing to do with prettiness or niceness.

Anyway, that was a side road. Hex 22 as "expressing essence, making essence visible, blossoming out"--right-naming?-- has always worked for me. But you can lose your way in all that surface, so that's there, too.

 

[knotxx]

An apology is another example of the sort of thing that must be spoken, manifested, shown, or it doesn't work. You can be as sorry and regretful as you like deep inside, but until you say "I am so sorry, what I did was wrong, and it hurt you, and I won't do it again," you have not apologized.

 

[Trojina]

I side very strongly with hilary on this. A marriage is like a promise--as hilary said, it's performative language. It is of course possible to love someone deeply and truly and live with them and all that your whole life--but if you haven't spoken some sort of marriage vow, then it is not "a marriage."

According to who ? According to people who believe in the marriage ceremony that's all. A ceremony does not mean a marriage and a marriage of any kind is certainly no less a marriage because of the lack of some ceremony. How can you tell people they don't have a marriage because they don't believe in or choose to perform some ceremony you happen to believe in.

I think I know you better than to think you mean that unless people believe in marriage they are not married/joined together.

It's like a promise: If you haven't spoken the words "I promise," then you cannot keep a promise, because no promise exists.

so promises are 22 things ? Hope not ! there are many threads on 22, it's the new 44 don't you know. And of course it is significant perhaps that there is the eleven pattern. 44 was the contentious one blood was shed over, now it's 22 so logically the others yet to come will be hex 11, yes I've seen it go that way and hexagram 55 which currently is not very contentious.

Or: you can tell the truth, but if you haven't said the words "I swear" than you are not under oath. Telling truth and being under oath are quite different things.

yes they are...so you can lie through teeth whilst under oath. The whole idea of the outer showing the essence is manifestly limited if you simply look about you. If the outer manifested the inner reliably then all beautiful people would be good...and people would tell the truth under oath...You can only go so far with making out performative action encapsulates 22 before it falls apart with a smashing sound. People can marry and have no marriage whatsoever.

And you may say "well I'd rather have the deep true love and living together than the ceremony" and so would I, if I could only have one. But if I could have both, I'd rather have both. In the US people have risked a lot, up to their actual lives, for the right to be able to make that marriage-promise -- in the 60s when the issue was mixed-race marriages in the South, and now when the issue is gay marriage. It is more than empty ceremony, at least to many people, or it wouldn't stir such deep passions.

well that is your personal opinion on marriage . Many people actively do not believe in marriage and would never do it no matter how much they love someone.

An apology is another example of the sort of thing that must be spoken, manifested, shown, or it doesn't work. You can be as sorry and regretful as you like deep inside, but until you say "I am so sorry, what I did was wrong, and it hurt you, and I won't do it again," you have not apologized.

And the apology may have absolutely no impact on the person whatsoever. Actions speak louder than words. Someone can go through a ceremony and say 'I love you' every day but if they don't show care for you then it is no marriage at all in any true sense.

Anyway this is off topic, really off topic for 22 anyway, because you are discussing your personal opinions about marriage and union. As I said in earlier posts one cannot be legally married without the ceremony but that's as far as it goes.

 

[Trojina]

An apology is another example of the sort of thing that must be spoken, manifested, shown, or it doesn't work. You can be as sorry and regretful as you like deep inside, but until you say "I am so sorry, what I did was wrong, and it hurt you, and I won't do it again," you have not apologized.

And you can apologise and not mean a word of it...so showing something can mean very very little. People apologise for all kinds of reasons and not always because they truly feel sorry. Like wise (as is too obvious to need to point out) people can have a marriage ceremony and not be remotely married in their hearts at all.

 

[knotxx]

oh but yes of COURSE you can lie under oath, and make a promise and not keep it (even make it KNOWING you won't keep it). And you can make a marriage vow and not mean it--or mean it, and not be able to keep it.

But that doesn't mean those word-actions have no meaning or no power. To lie under oath, to break a vow, to break a promise to a friend, to refuse to apologize--those are all quite serious things.

(On the other hand, I think it is actually quite hard, maybe impossible, to make a real apology insincerely, which is why people are always making NOT-real ones ("sorry if your feelings got hurt," "sorry if you took what I said wrong," "sorry those things happened"<----not apologies). A real apology is PAINFUL to say which is why people resist it so much. It's true it may have no effect on the person you're apologizing to, but a correct apology will have an effect on the apologizer, at the least.)

About marriage -- I think we are just talking at cross-purposes--just defining the word "marriage" differently. I don't mean by "marriage" the deeper union--I mean the formal vow. Of course there are many people who do not believe in marriage of any kind (including even private vow-swearings, which is certainly a kind of marriage, to me), and those people can have just as loving, deep unions as anyone else, and quite a bit MORE loving/deep etc than many married people.

But by definition, the word "marriage" means "we made a promise to each other to build a life together" [usually a promise made before our friends and families, but not always]. You can have a beautiful, profound life and love together without making such a promise--in fact I think some people feel like they can have a BETTER life & love without such a promise, and for all I know they're right, seriously.

But a marriage is a FORMAL union, that's what the word means. I do not in any way mean to denigrate the choice of people who choose not to get married, not at ALL. But without the formal-vows part, it is some beautiful deep profound complex thing, maybe a thing that is better than marriage, but it isn't marriage, by definition.

I keep coming back to it being like promising. You could ask me to promise to care for you all your life, and I could say "I can't promise that," and then I could do it anyway. But then I couldn't come back and say "well I kept that promise, actually," because I didn't MAKE the promise. Which may or may not matter to you/us.

I don't think this is far off from Hex22 at all, actually, which is all about weddings after all.

 

[knotxx]

and yes I guess I do think a promise might be a Hex 22 ish thing, with all the beauty and danger of drowning that entails.

 

[Trojina]

But that doesn't mean those word-actions have no meaning or no power. To lie under oath, to break a vow, to break a promise to a friend, to refuse to apologize--those are all quite serious things.

Yes, quite, so by definition not really 22 territory exactly. See the Image in 22.

About marriage -- I think we are just talking at cross-purposes--just defining the word "marriage" differently. I don't mean by "marriage" the deeper union--I mean the formal vow.

Yes I was aware of that cross purposes thing in similar posts to Hilary. The formal vow is the show yes. But looked at in terms of real values the formal vow is not marriage IMO...but we could go round in circles crossing purposes. I know what you mean.

But by definition, the word "marriage" means "we made a promise to each other to build a life together" [usually a promise made before our friends and families, but not always]. You can have a beautiful, profound life and love together without making such a promise--in fact I think some people feel like they can have a BETTER life & love without such a promise, and for all I know they're right, seriously.

I don't really think the formal promise makes much difference one way or the other to be honest, not in terms of what happens in the actual real life union. That's just an opinion, not remotely on topic.

I keep coming back to it being like promising. You could ask me to promise to care for you all your life, and I could say "I can't promise that," and then I could do it anyway. But then I couldn't come back and say "well I kept that promise, actually," because I didn't MAKE the promise. Which may or may not matter to you/us.

At least saying "I can't promise that" is honest because the truth is no one knows what will happen down the line. I really don't think promises are a 22 thing. Of course we can't really assign promises to a hexagram I suppose...but I'm definitely not with you on the promising thing or the vows things and 22. In any case marriage and what it meant in Yi is quite different to what it is meant to mean today...I assume.

We will have to agree to differ, substantially, for now

BTW I do think there can be a transformative aspect in 22, especially 22.4 though I could not relate that to marriage in any way other than as a metaphor.

I don't think I want to say anything else about 22 right now....not for a long time. As I say it's becoming one of those hexagrams like 44 was