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Hi Gmuli, hmmm. Yes, the Zhouyi text is filled with images. And I like the thundering elephant too, ever since an extremely dramatic weekend when I "consulted" with the Yijing by accidentally dropping my copy of Karcher on the sand of the beach on a tiny island and it opened up to 16, just as a huge tropical storm rolled over the horizon, with loud thunder booming everywhere.With most other styles of reading in the Five Arts we read only based on Images(象 - i like the literal translation as elephants, something so big and obvious you just need to look in that direction and everything becomes clear).
Using the text there aren't that many sources of Images we can layer together, so no idea how it would be used with the text. Its helpful in the other styles, as they are based on Images and relations.
How do you use the Image in divination?
Ah, I'm always happy to hear what people have to say when they look at the trigrams and how they work together! But again, I'm not talking about images or imagery in general, I'm talking about that part of the text of the Yijing that is specifically referred to as "the Image" (by most people who include it. Hilary, Wilhelm, Balkin ...)Even before reading any text, and even before looking at the hexagram number, the image that first strikes me is the one associated with the two trigrams, It depends on the question I have in mind, of course, sometimes it's the same as (or similar to) what's in the "image" section, sometimes it's not.
"Water over Earth" may be a gentle rain that satisfies the arid earth, or a rushing river that flows guided and contained by its banks. "Thunder below Mountain" could be the sound of something struggling to get free from oppression or the fear that may linger in the hearth of even the bravest man who looks solid as a rock.
Those are the first things that pop into my mind and generate an image that, in a way or another, drives me through the reading of the text. This "first image" is often contrasted or reinforced by the many other images the text offers but it never leaves my mind while reading.
Hi Gmuli, hmmm. Yes, the Zhouyi text is filled with images. And I like the thundering elephant too, ever since an extremely dramatic weekend when I "consulted" with the Yijing by accidentally dropping my copy of Karcher on the sand of the beach on a tiny island and it opened up to 16, just as a huge tropical storm rolled over the horizon, with loud thunder booming everywhere.
But I was talking more specificially about "the Image," the part of the text that comes from one of the wings of the Yi, I forget which one. Most translations of the Yi include it just after the Judgement text.
Funny, despite its name, it's generally not as rich in terms of images as the line texts or judgement, it's usually giving advice. So, the image text for 23 (Wilhelm) is as follows:
The mountain rests on the earth:
The image of SPLITTING APART.
Thus those above can ensure their position
Only by giving generously to those below.
Basically - all other levels have become unreliable to take flow from, look at the highest possible level you can reach(top line) and bring it down if possible.Thus those above can ensure their position
Only by giving generously to those below.
Or lessons for kings and princes? Yes, every now and again you get one where the trigram imagery is brilliant, but often not. I do use it, but lightly. Since it's almost always describing correct behavior in a situation, it works well when you ask for advice questions, I find. But it does often seem very disconnected from the text of the Zhouyi. And a completely different feel and taste to it.These 64 verses mention each hexagram’s two trigrams and feel to me like lessons about the actions of kings and princes:
Rutt's Zhouyi includes a translation of the entire Wings Commentaries. His is the only translation I have - and that I know of - which includes these. Not too shabby for a modernist I'd say. That he keeps them separate from the Zhouyi makes sense, since his main emphasis and offering is a translation of the Zhouyi.y the way, does Rutt include a translation of the Daxiang somewhere in his appendices? It would be fun to read through them all in a row, without other distractions in between.
The best way to use the Image in divination is to see the elements at work, in other words, to take it as a descriptive image.How do you use the Image in divination?
I must admit, I always took it more or less for granted that the Image was part of the reading, that it was only slightly secondary to the Judgement. Yes, yes, I know it's not part of the Zhouyi, that it's a later commentary, probably from the Warring States period. But it's just always been there. Wilhelm has to take responsibility for this, I think. He put the Image in prime place, in Book One, with all other references to later commentary tucked away in Book Three, where most people don't look. And most translators and commentators have followed him. Not all, of course. Anyone in the modernist faction tends to leave it out.
It's almost always in the shape of advice, how the "superior person" would act in this situation. I like to look at it when I ask a "What should I do?" question.
@hilary : Have you ever done a blog post specifically on the issue of how to use the Image? Or do you know if anyone else talks about it much? Thanks!
Gmulii, I'm a bit unclear about some of what you're saying here.With most other styles of reading in the Five Arts we read only based on Images .... Using the text there aren't that many sources of Images ... so no idea how it would be used with the text. Its helpful in the other styles, as they are based on Images and relations.
Well, we can use the Trigram Images sure. We do a lot in Mei Hua. But there is more. We can use the Images of the Lines. And we can also relate all that to the element of the Hexagram.* When you say (five arts styles are) 'only based on Images' I assume you mean the images and imagery we find in the trigrams, or do you mean something else? In other words, which one of the different 'image' definitions do you mean when you say 'Images'?
* I find that the text of the Zhouyi is filled with images and imagery, so I don't understand it when you say, that with 'the text there aren't that many sources of Images'? (Or are you saying that the Image text from Wings 3 and 4 don't contain much imagery?)
I mean I don't know how we can layer images with the text. While we do have Images, sure, layering them suggests different "zooming" to everything. We can do it with the Trigrams, we read the text of the Hexagram and relate it to the Trigrams(one showing inner parts of the situation, the other outter, so how is the environemt vs the person asking local surronding etc.)* You say, you have 'no idea how it would be used with the text'. What is the "it" that you don't know how to use with the text? By 'it' are you perhaps referring to one of the 'five arts' systems, in which case you are saying something like: 'I have no idea how I'd use the text with these (five arts) systems' - or 'I have no idea how I'd use the Image statements (from the Wings) in these systems'. Or?
Hmm... I should rephrase that. : )* And you seem to be saying something contradictory above: that the text are not a good source of images, so they are therefore 'helpful in the other styles, as they are based on Images (and relations)'???
Not that I can remember. I do like them, though, and use them. I think Wilhelm had the right idea, promoting the Image to Book I: I find them thoroughly ingenious and insightful, and also a good lesson in how to use trigrams (to paint pictures and draw analogies). Often they draw out something already implicit in the text - particularly the text of line 5.@hilary : Have you ever done a blog post specifically on the issue of how to use the Image? Or do you know if anyone else talks about it much? Thanks!
Hmmm. Someone contacted me by PM with the same point about line 5. He referred to the Image text as a kind of "Cliff's notes" for the hexagram. Very interesting. Thanks!Not that I can remember. I do like them, though, and use them. I think Wilhelm had the right idea, promoting the Image to Book I: I find them thoroughly ingenious and insightful, and also a good lesson in how to use trigrams (to paint pictures and draw analogies). Often they draw out something already implicit in the text - particularly the text of line 5.
Okay. Much of what you said above is still confusing me, but overall the way you’re thinking about and using the Images - is perhaps based on layers of images from associations with the 5 elements and stems and branches, and the seasons, etc.Overall, I'm kinda saying that the text is less flexible in using Images. It still uses it and still in a usaful way sometimes. But it isn't exactly the same, its like the Images there are already premade and provided in a merged form, compared to what is used in other styles, most of the time.
Someone just mentioned this idea to me as well, so I looked at eight or so hexagrams, but I found no consistent connection or shared meanings between the Image statements and the 5th line statements - it was there only one time that I could find.Often they draw out something already implicit in the text - particularly the text of line 5.
Okay. Much of what you said above is still confusing me, but overall the way you’re thinking about and using the Images - is perhaps based on layers of images from associations with the 5 elements and stems and branches, and the seasons, etc.
But overall, what you’re talking about has little to nothing to do with the Image statements, the daxiang, from the 3rd and 4th Wings - which was the original topic of this discussion.
Do I have that about right?
Just something I noticed - though of course now I'm going to find it hard to come up with examples. Well, there's always hexagram 5.It made me curious however where this notion of a Daxiang Image-5th line connection comes from? Is it something you noticed on your own? Or is it from Wilhelm? Or another author or source?
Okay thanks! And to clarify, I’m not saying that this notion of an Image / 5th line connection is wrong, or necessarily incorrect ; I’m saying that it is not consistent nor always true across all 64 hexagrams, which you seem to be confirming as well when you say you’re finding it hard to come up with examples.Just something I noticed - though of course now I'm going to find it hard to come up with examples.
Nothing is ever always true across all 64 hexagrams.Okay thanks! And to clarify, I’m not saying that this notion of an Image / 5th line connection is wrong, or necessarily incorrect ; I’m saying that it is not consistent nor always true across all 64 hexagrams, which you seem to be confirming as well when you say you’re finding it hard to come up with examples.
And to therefore have - or rely upon - inconsistent ‘cliff notes’? Hmm?
best, d
Yes, I agree! And in this case I think we can all agree, there is no consistent connection between all 64 Daxiang Image statements and all of the 5th lines of each hexagram (and this has been confirmed for me by an anonymous source, sort of the Q-anon of the Oracle realms!).Nothing is ever always true across all 64 hexagrams.
The Image, in any case, doesn't necessarily describe what is happening, but what would be happening in an ideal situation.
Actually, the last post was less than two week ago, so not all that 'dead' .... compared to some. Also, in response to the question: Have you ever done a blog post specifically on the issue of how to use the Image? Hilary replied above ....This thread has long ago died, but ...
Not that I can remember. I do like them, though, and use them.
grassgrowing: Describe the ground or scenery of this thread.Visualize the scene described in 'The Image'. Turn it around in your head and examine all factors. Imagine what sort of people or animals could live there, or spirits.
Great take!Wonder if 13.2's about the early confusion between The Image (daxiang) and general imagery?
Then in line 4 that got straightened out and everyone was on a secure perch...
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).