...life can be translucent

Menu

The Luo Shu - the language of numbers

frank_r

visitor
Joined
Jun 20, 1971
Messages
639
Reaction score
0
Lo Shu starting with trigram fire

hello Robert,

I had a question about the Lo shu diagram. normally the lo Shu start with number 1 at the bottum with water. But I had a conversation with somebody and there the Lo Shu started with the number 1 on top with trigram fire,and then number 2 is trigram mountain etc. He said that this is the Siberian way. Do you know this one also and why does it start normaly at the bottum and what will it say when is starts at the top?

Thanks Frank
 

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
The Luo Shu - the Real Lost Symbol

Dear Frank,

Technically speaking, there is only one arrangement of the first nine numbers in the Luo Shu. That is to say no matter where the number one is placed, the following numbers will be in the same relative position to one another.

Five will always be in the center, and the odd numbers will always form a cruciform; therefore, only arrangements with one within the cruciform (excluding the center) are possible. There are four such positions, and all the numbers would be rotated to adjust and reflect the same square.

Traditionally, the number one is placed either above or below the center cell. If one observes a sequence of higher order magic squares in the Luo Shu format, then one will notice that the diagonal with one increases by one with each successive cell, forming a sequence of 1- 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 ..... to infinity.

This sequence would be on the descending diagonal reading left to right with the one originating below the center cell.

The sequence would be on the asecending diagonal reading left to right with the one originating above the center cell.

For myself, it seems more natural to have the one below the center cell and the nine above the center cell, as it is easier to read in sequence along a descending diagonal than it is an ascending diagonal.

The bottom line is I do not believe there is a difference between the two squares that you mention, it is simply a matter of orientation.

Robert at www.luo-shu.com
 
Last edited:

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
Understanding the 3-6-9

Yi Jing Community,

I found this web site that discusses the 3, 6, and 9 theory.:eek: It seems to be related to the Rodin Coil, ternary notation, the Yi Jing and Magic Squares. Here is a sampling:

"These number groupings piece together into a jig-saw-like puzzle pattern that perfectly demonstrates the way energy flows. Our base-ten decimal system is not man made, rather it is created by this flow of energy. Amazingly, after twenty years of working with this symbol and collaborating with engineers and scientists, Marko discovered that the 1,2,4,8,7,5 was a doubling circuit for a very efficient electrical coil. There was still one more very important number pattern to be realized. On the MATHEMATICAL FINGER PRINT OF GOD notice how the 3, 9, and 6 is in red and does not connect at the base. That is because it is a vector. The 1,2,4,8,7,5 is the third dimension while the oscillation between the 3 and 6 demonstrates the fourth dimension, which is the higher dimensional magnetic field of an electrical coil. The 3, 9, and 6 always occur together with the 9 as the control. In fact, the Yin/Yang is not a duality but rather a trinary. This is because the 3 and 6 represent each side of the Yin/Yang and the 9 is the "S" curve between them. Everything is based on thirds. We think that the universe is based on dualities because we see the effects not the cause.


When I say the oscillation between the 3 and 6 what I mean is that 3 doubled is 6 and 6 doubled is 12, but 1+2=3, and then 12 doubled is 24, but 2+4=6 and 24 doubled is 48, but 4+8=12 and 1+2=3. So the 3 and 6 go back and forth in their own separate dimension. This creates the other important pattern of (3,9,6,6,9,3,3,9)."

web link: http://www.rense.com/RodinAerodynamics.htm

I have found the Rodin Torus industrial applications quite interesting and very much related to the numerology of Magic Squares in the Luo Shu format.:cool:

robertluoshu
 

frank_r

visitor
Joined
Jun 20, 1971
Messages
639
Reaction score
0
Hello Robert,

Yes, a very interesting link you gave there. Thanks for this. Have to study this one a little further.

Frank
 

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
hello Robert,

I had a question about the Lo shu diagram. normally the lo Shu start with number 1 at the bottum with water. But I had a conversation with somebody and there the Lo Shu started with the number 1 on top with trigram fire,and then number 2 is trigram mountain etc. He said that this is the Siberian way. Do you know this one also and why does it start normaly at the bottum and what will it say when is starts at the top?

Thanks Frank
Frank,

I found a web site that can answer your question.

http://www.fengshuipalace.com.au/loushu.aspx

One corresponds with North and is always placed below the center number.

There has also been some historical reference to the 3x3 Luo Shu Magic Square as a measurement of Time, as the above web site mentions. The magic constant is 15 and this represented the number of days in a fortnight. There were six fortnights in a season, twentyfour fortnights in a year.

These numbers may appear on Chinese bi discs from the Han dynasty (206 BC - 220 AD). These particular astrological discs were notched, with the outer edge divided into four sections (representing the four seasons) with each section having six ridges, marking the number of fortnights in a season. (Reference: Illustrated Catalogue of Ancient Jade Artifacts in the National Palace Museum Taiwan 1982)

Science and Civilisation in China, Volume III Joseph Needham, p. 405

"Each of these twenty-four periods corresponds to a 15 degree motion of the sun in longitude on the ecliptic. The average fortnightly period is 15.218 days."

Therefore, there are 91.308 days in a season. This would be a very important number and fraction to monitor and document.

robert.luoshu at www.luo-shu.com
 
Last edited:

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
the Lo Shu and the Former and Later Heaven Trigram

Robert Dickter,

Hi - really nice website you have made. I enjoyed looking through many of the pages.

I was wondering whether you would be interested in how the Lo Shu has been used as one of the calibration devices when creating the Former and Later Heaven trigram sequences from the arrangements of the visible celestial bodies around a Taiji symbol?

My thread here explains the procedure, and the Lo Shu comes in to play in post #8. Maybe you would have some additional insight, being so much more familiar with the Lo Shu than me?

Thank you for putting all that information online.

All the best,

Erime
Erime,

I found this website which may address your question much better than my feelbe first attempt.

http://www.kheper.net/topics/I_Ching/history.html

If you understand how the numbers of the Ho Tu rotate into the Lo Shu could you please give a demonstration.

Also, I am wondering if balanced ternary notation has anyting to do with this?? I do not know the math of ternary notation so I could use a little help out there.....

robertluoshu at www.luo-shu.com
 
Last edited:

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
The Luo Shu and the Diagram Preceding and Succeeding Heaven

Erime,

I have been giving this some thought. I think the Luo Shu can be used to follow the numbers and their corresponding elements as such:



I will try and explain.

In the Diagram Preceding Heaven, earth starts in the position that corresponds with one in the Luo Shu and ends in the position that corresponds with the number two in the Diagram Succeeding Heaven. This in turn results in wood (which starts in the number 2 position) getting displaced into metal's position (which corresponds to the number 4 position). And so on.

Please use the model in the above mentioned web site along with the Diagram Preceding and Succeeding Heaven, as well as the Luo Shu.

There appear to be two cycles, perhaps one representing yin and one yang:

First cycle: 1 - 2 - 4 and 7 ends the cycle. One doubles to two, two doubles to four, then seven and repeat. An easy to see arithmetic progression.

Second cycle: 3 - 9 - 6 and 8 ends the cycle. 3 squared is 9, 9 minus 3 = 6.
Or, if x = 3, then the pattern is: x……x*x……x*x – x, this being our familiar ternary notation progression????

Fire is not in the first cycle, water is absent the second cycle. And everything rotates around 5, earth.

This may not make any sense so please excuse my efforts, if however you can make any logic out of this, please respond!

{Reference: A Companion To Yi Jing Numerology and Cosmology by Brent Nielsen (2003) plate 4 and plate 7

robertluoshu at www.luo-shu.com
 
Last edited:

erime

visitor
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Messages
75
Reaction score
0
robertluoshu said:
If you understand how the numbers of the Ho Tu rotate into the Lo Shu could you please give a demonstration.
Hi Robert

I see the Ho Tu as a kind of cardinal direction heirarchy indicator. I haven't looked in to it's patterns very much.

If we take North to be at the bottom of the Ho To (as we see in Feng Shui Later Heaven diagrams) - something which can apparently be debated as far as I am aware ( Southern hemisphere Feng Shui / The North South Debate 3'rd Installment ) - then I see the Ho Tu as indicating the number 1 'place' is North, number 2 'place' is South (highlighting that N-S axis). After this we have East as number 3 placement (where the Sun rises from), and the last place is West. After the main 4 cardinal directions are 'placed' within a hierarchy, then the center becomes the focus. This seems more apparent in the first Ho Tu with the circular arrangement of the higher numbers around the numbers 1-5 as a kind of cross (compass?).

That's my take on it, anyway.

robertluoshu said:
Also, I am wondering if balanced ternary notation has anyting to do with this?? I do not know the math of ternary notation so I could use a little help out there.....
Sorry; can't help you with that.

My exploration of the Lo Shu begins by numbering the Early Heaven Bagua like in these diagrams:

The colours represent the five elements associations.

The 'stepping stone' number 5 in the middle means the sine-wave dynamism of the taiji symbol can be embodied, and an axis of sorts can be drawn in.

After numbering the Early Heaven bagua, then we can see an interesting relationship between the numbers in the Lo Shu (when inserted in a similar circular chart - a chart design which was apparently used by ancient Chinese astronomers):


I was wondering whether you can find any deep mathematical relationship between the last two diagrams above.

The Lo Shu is a perfect reflection of the Early Heaven bagua numbers flipped through the vertical axis! Try it in MS Paint if you want to see. :bows:
 

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
Lo Shu and the Early Heaven Bagua

Erime,

Tremondous post - you have helped me to understand a little now about concepts I thought hopeless and have not given much thought.

1. From what you have said above, is it a correct statement to say that Feng Shui is more closely related to the Ho Tu than is the Lo Shu?

2. Explain what you mean by "the sine wave dynamism of the Taiji symbol", or simply provide a web site, sounds like it could be a wordy explanation.

3. Could you please provide an image of a Taiji symbol, I think it would look great on this thread. Nevermind. I just looked it up.

4. Do any of the numbers assigned to the four cardinal directions correspond to the North Star, Pei Tou? Is the Center, five? Does five also correspond to Earth? Explain please.

5. Please let me study the numerology offered. First thoughts:
  • The cruciform of odd numbers is intact.
  • The verticle axis is flipped while the horizontal axis is maintained, nine has exhanged places with one, or North with South.
  • And the even numbers in the four quadrates have shifted one position in a counter clockwise direction.

6. You prefer Lo Shu to Luo Shu, correct?

robertloshu at www.lo-shu.info
 
Last edited:

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
The Lo Shu and the Early Heaven Bagua



I look at the arrangement of even numbers representing "one wheel" and the odd numbers representing another "wheel".

To myself, it looks like the wheel of even numbers rotate clockwise (one 90 degree turn) from the Early Heaven Bagua into the Lo Shu position and the cruciform of odd numbers stays intact but the veriticle axis is flipped (or a 180 degree turn), nine (North, Heaven) switching with one (South, Earth).

For myself, this transition of numbers calls attention to the numbers 19 and 91, which seem to trade places, or spin around the horizontal axis. I study Luo Shu Magic Squares so I have a prejudice. 91 to me represent the number of days in a season and the 19x19 Magic Square is a big favorite of mine. You can study the square at this link:

http://luo-shu.com/book/part_two/order19_examples

For myself, a deep mathematical relationship with the Luo Shu, Ho Tu, and Early Heaven Bagua might point to the concepts of Space (the Pythagorean Theorem) and Time (reference to the seasons, solar cycle, fortnight periods, etc.).

In the Early Heaven Bagua, the relationship of 3-4-5 (a Pythagorean triple) is stilll intact as it is in the Lo Shu. The reference to Time perhaps could be made with the numbers 19 and 91, the numbers I see spinning around the horizontal axis, but I agree this is quite a stretch.

I also see the concept of spin or rotation, with the even numbers doing one thing and the veriticle axis of the odd numbers doing a different dimensional spin in order for the Early Heaven Bagua to transform into the Lo Shu.

robertloshu
 
Last edited:

pantherpanther

visitor
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
762
Reaction score
0
To the respectable Frank Kegan (only),

Number triplets that form Pythagorean Triads in Luo Shu magic squares represent a significant discovery. No one in four thousand years has made this association that is known. It is a short walk from here to Chinese philosophy and numerology. The primary purpose of numbers and math is for measurement. Math represents the only truth, everything else is illusion.

The best introduction to Pythagorean mathematics today is to examine its root origin, which is Chinese.

If I am to be criticized, please quote me correctly. I never said that my mathematical system could explain the Yi Jing. I said in the above paragraph that higher order magic squares are related to the Yi Jing and play a role in prognostication and calendar making. This is a far cry from claiming that I have all the answers.

My work may be of no use to you, but in the short time my research has been publicly posted a mathematical proof has been written and published, and ground breaking progress has been made on “retention” Magic Squares in the Luo Shu format.

I do not have to explain why the number seven is so significant, it is enough to demonstrate how the number seven plays a significant role in understanding the “language of numbers”.

Other people can explain why this, or philosophize about that. That is the point of research, to open the minds of people and stimulate thought as well as to interact with one another. And if were lucky, we evolve. There is no evolution with judgements and criticisms.

This work represents the beginning of much more research and insight into Magic Squares in the Luo Shu format. This is not for everybody, it is for people with open minds who seek knowledge or entertainment. It is good, innocent fun and a great way to use the mind.

Persistence, confidence, and hard work will triumph in the end.

Robert Dickter, author, Number, Time, and Archetype webmaster of www.luo-shu.com
int

Robert,
I ain't Frank. However, G I Gurdjieff stated in the 1920's that the Chinese knew of the octave and this knowledge was later transferred to the West. The I Ching is based on this knowledge . The Chinese model is more subjective, contextual and descriptive than the Western,which is more objective, abstract and prescriptive. It is in the West like a representation of the scales that make up the notes in music , while the Chinese model resembles the arpeggios that are formed by the scales. For example ,the model of a mother and a father with 3 sons and 3 daughters.
We all have to deal with living and dying every moment . The Western and Eastern teachings supply keys to understanding our situation and how to cope with it. To suggest that we view them as a mental game strikes a dull and flat note.
 
Last edited:

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
Fu Xi and the Hexagrams

Some comments:
  1. Fu Xi was the inventor of the calendar.
  2. Fu Xi was the inventor of the trigrams.
  3. Fu Xi was the inventor of the carpernter's square.
  4. Fu Xi was presented the River Chart and the Luo Writing from Heaven.
  5. Fu Xi was the father of the four seasons.
  6. Fu Xi and Nu Wa were the inventors of musical instruments.

Quoting from the Zhou bi suan jing:

  • "The art of numbering proceeds from the circle and the square......
  • The methods used by Yu The Great in governing the world were derived from these numbers......
  • The carpenter's square serves to measure distances and heights and fathom depths....
  • He who understands the earth is a wise man, and he who understands the heavens is a sage.
  • Knowledge is derived from the straight line. The straight line is derived from the right angle (gnomon). And the combination of the right angle with numbers is what guides and rules the ten thousand things."
Ten Thousand Things, sometimes symbolized by the swasticka Chinese character, is a conventional means of speaking of all things, the totality of objects.

Mark Lewis, Writing and Aurhtority in Early China (1999):

"Fu Xi's invention of the trigrams results from his ability to link Heaven and Earth. Passages in the apocryphal literature also argue that the Yi is the Way of Heaven and Earth, and the the hexagrams serve to "unite" Heaven and Earth."

Joseph Needham, Science and Civilisation in China, Vol. 3 (1972):

"It will be remembered that the legendary Yu was the patron saint of hydrualic engineers and all those concerned with water-control, irrigation and conservancy. Epigraphic evidence from the Later Han, when the Chou Pei (Zhou bi) had taken its present form, show us, in reliefs on the walls of the Wu Liang tomb-shrines (C. 140 AD), the legendary culture heroes Fu-Hsi and Nu-Kua holding squares and compasses. The reference to Yu here undoubtedly indicates the ancient need for mensuration and applied mathematics.

When the Chinese character for compass is combined with the character for carpenter's square, the new word that is formed means: to establish order, a moral standard, the way things should be (tradition).

Mark Lewis, Writing and Aurhtority in Early China (1999):

"The analysis of reality through the application of numbers converged with that through images and graphic signs in the text of the Yi. Recent archeological finds have shown that the links of the Yi to number are ancient.......The idea that these were hexagrams has been confirmed by the fact that manuscript versions of Yi divination from the fourth to second centuries B.C. also employ hexagrmas formed entirely from numbers."

"Passages define both the process of divination and the understanding of the cosmos as the manipulation of numbers, and they employ numerology to explain the structure of the texts. Since the hexagrams are generated by numbers, it is the power of number to reproduce the structure of the universe in a visual emblem that makes possible the Yi's creation of images."

"As a source of numerical lore the Yi was fundamental to uses of numbers by the imperial state. One example was the preparation of calendars, which was based on "calendrical numbers"......The Yi was regarded as the foundation text for the state-sponsored calendrics of the Han empire."

Based on my research, I am more prone to believe that the Yi was based on numbers, math, the gnomon, the Lo Shu, and a cosmological belief that this "mathematical science" could establish a calendar and establish order over the universe.

The cosmology of the early Chinese was represented by the Lo Shu, or a model of Time and Space. This is supported by the lay out of their ancient cities, the jade bi disc, the TLB Bronze mirror, and temple design.

Although I am confident that the mathematics of sound and the octaves play a integral role in all of this, I have not been able to uncover references that would further my research in this area. Sound and number are intricately related, as Pythagoras has proved, and people have been attempting to decode the Luo Shu into a musical compostion. Perhaps this is where the secrets lie.

robertluoshu at www.luo-shu.com
 
Last edited:

pantherpanther

visitor
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
762
Reaction score
0
"Choon-Kil-Tez and Choon-Tro-Pel are Chinese twin brothers who rediscovered the law of sevenfoldness"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub's_Tales_to_His_Grandson

".... Law of Heptaparashinokh, and are the scientific terms used by the Chinese scientists to explain their Law of Ninefoldness. It is rather strange that there is no Chinese Neologism for the Law of Ninefoldness. It is also interesting to note that the word Enneagram is not used in the Tales. It is also interesting to note that there is no mention in the 1931 edition of Beelzebub’s Tales of Harnel-Aoot, the disharmonized fifth Stopinder. The Chinese brothers Choon-Kil-Tez and Choon-Tro-Pel discovered two of the Mdnel-Ins, called by them Sooanso-Toorabizo which means ‘obligatory-gap - aspects - of- the- unbroken- flowing- of- thewhole.’ but they failed to discover Harnel-Aoot. Similarly there is no mention of Harnel-Aoot in Ouspensky’s writing. That being said, there are two words in the following list which sound similar to Aoot and which refer to the fifth centers of gravity or Dooczako of two octaves. Those words are Khooti-Pikan-On and Khooti-Noora-Chaka. "
http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_neologism_talk_ae2008.htm
 
Last edited:

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
"Choon-Kil-Tez and Choon-Tro-Pel are Chinese twin brothers who rediscovered the law of sevenfoldness"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub's_Tales_to_His_Grandson

http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_neologism_talk_ae2008.htm
"The plot of Beelzebub's Tales primarily revolves around the ruminations of an extraterrestrial known as "Beelzebub" to his grandson Hassein, as they travel through space towards Beelzebub's home planet "Karatas" on the spaceship Karnak. It mainly recounts the adventures and travails of Beelzebub amongst the 'three-brained beings' (humans) of the planet Earth. Beelzebub covers the entire history of the strange behaviors and customs of these beings."

-----from Wikipedia website (above)


"What is a Neologism? The etymology of neologism is rooted in the Greek language: the modern form is based on νεολογισμός [neologismos] (from νέος [neos] new + λόγος [logos] word, speech, discourse + suffix -ισμός [-ismos] -ism) - literally, “new word”. A neologism is a word, term, or phrase that has been recently created (or “coined”), often to apply to new concepts, to synthesize pre-existing concepts, or to make older terminology sound more contemporary. Neologisms are especially useful in identifying inventions, new phenomena, or old ideas that have taken on a new cultural context. (1)

Gurdjieff's use of neologisms in Beelzebub's Tales is, for many of us, one of the difficulties in reading and comprehending the book. Another difficulty is his use of long sentences with many sub phrases. Fortunately, however, Gurdjieff did provide definitions, descriptions and illustrative examples of the neologisms. For many of us the Neologisms have come to represent in a succinct way the meanings of the various ideas and principles that Gurdjieff described in the pages of Beelzebub's Tales. By drawing on word roots from many languages, Gurdjieff has managed to capture in his Neologisms, in a highly encapsulated form, numerous verbal images that speak variously to our conscious and unconscious intellectual and emotional associations in order to assist a slow unfolding of meaning and insight into the Laws of World Creation and Maintenance."

----from endless search website

Simply put, I'm not buying it.

Studying Magic Squares in the Luo Shu format allows one to understand the significance of the Luo Shu and why it was revered as a Mathematical and Cosmological icon.

Making up sounds with nomenclature formulates a secret club with only the members understanding the code. And the ability to do research and confirm the allegation would be limited to the opinions of one man, that is more like a cult than an academic endeavor.

And one sound emanating from one person is not the exact wavelength or energy as the same "sound" from another person. Besides, number describes music, or sound, not the other way around (see Pythagoras).

You are relying on spaceships and extraterrestrials to explain Neologisms and the Yi Jing.

I have used qualified references to make the case that the origin of the Yi Jing is Number and I am going to stick with references such as Needham, Schinz, Cammann, and Lewis.

I am not clear if Gurdjieff's theories are accepted in the mainstream.

“All the keys are in Beelzebub, but they are not near their locks.” Gurdjieff

How convenient, one can not prove or disprove such profoundness. Numbers do not lie. The Math is either there or not. Great lengths have been made to link the Lo Shu to the Math of the Gnomon (Cammann), the most sophisticated math instrument to Humankind for over five thousand years.

The math of the Magic Square in the Luo Shu format stands on solid ground, and can be supported with great references. It is the Math of the Luo Shu that the cosmology of the early Chinese is based on, not spaceships and Beezlebub.

The cosmology of the early Chinese was represented by the Lo Shu, or a model of Time and Space. This is supported by the lay out of their ancient cities, the jade bi disc, the TLB Bronze mirror, and temple design.

The fact is not every body likes Math, it is like Greek to some people. And if one does not like Math, then it may be much easier to look for answers elsewhere.

It was Pythagoras who said "Everything can be explained with Number."

Happy New Year,

robert luoshu at www.luo-shu.com
 
Last edited:

pantherpanther

visitor
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
762
Reaction score
0
Plato and Pythagoras made clear that they did not reveal the Mystery teaching to the public. In the case of Gurdjieff, the teaching was transmitted orally and in community and the Movements (dances) and writings were parts of a whole. There was nothing cultish involved. He trained a few pupils to transmit his teaching and chose to publish Beelzebub's Tales in the last year of his life. Few knew of him.
http://www.gurdjieff.org/
 
Last edited:

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
There was nothing cultish involved.

http://www.gurdjieff.org/
I found these articles on the same web site you recommended in the above post.

http://www.gurdjieff.org/munson2.htm Title of article: "The Strange Cult of Gurdjieff"

and this:

http://www.gurdjieff.org/carroll.htm Title of article: : "Gurdjieff Heads New Cult"

I believe we are going Off Topic. The Thread is titled: The Luo Shu: The Language of Numbers

Neologisms, Beelzebub, extra-terrestrials, Karnac the UFO, and cults have no place in a discussion about mathematics and its relationship to the cosmology of the Shang dynasty.

I appreciate your imput and believe sound has an important role to play in all this. However, if we can not have a discussion based on the merits of the thread and bring up relevant information that can be confirmed with references, then the discussion loses focus and becomes a competition of opinions.

Mathematics is not about opinions, it is either there or it is not. Mathematics was important to the Shang Kings who practiced divination based on Number. This has clearly been established in the literature. There is a connection to Luo Shu Magic Squares which is fascinating, and to discover the use of the Luo Shu in so many different cultures over thousands of years is equally fascinating.

robertluoshu @ www.luo-shu.com
 
Last edited:

pantherpanther

visitor
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
762
Reaction score
0
Robert,
It is mindless (and gullible) to have opinions on things one knows little about.

It was Pythagoras who said "Everything can be explained with Number."

Commentary on Shi Qing Lu says: ‘Every change of heaven and earth exists in numbers, which have a forward and backward progression. Heaven, earth and man have this progression.’ This statement
correlates precisely to Gurdjieff's teaching, which is based on number.
-
Also, Ki Cammann agreed with me that Gurdjieff understood the origin of and original forms of the Chinese diagrams . Perhaps this helped Cammann to reason -an original notion to scholars at the time - that the later forms were distortions of the original, writing in his Dualism article, "We have seen that the Fu Hsi circle of trigrams must have reached its present state because a group of ancient Chinese scholars applied to its third primitive form the numbering of their early Lo Shu square and then later modified this to conform to the adjusted numbering on the fully developed Lo Shu; while the circle ascribed to King Wen must have attained its present appearance after a second group had previously deployed it on the cross-shaped frames of two successive forms of the Ho T’u. This completely reverses the usual statements made by historians of China’s culture—whether Chinese or Western—who have maintained that the trigrams ascribed to FuHsi traditionally belonged with the Ho T’u, while those attributed to King Wen belonged with the Lo Shu."
 
Last edited:

frank_r

visitor
Joined
Jun 20, 1971
Messages
639
Reaction score
0
"Choon-Kil-Tez and Choon-Tro-Pel are Chinese twin brothers who rediscovered the law of sevenfoldness"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub's_Tales_to_His_Grandson

".... Law of Heptaparashinokh, and are the scientific terms used by the Chinese scientists to explain their Law of Ninefoldness. http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_neologism_talk_ae2008.htm
Hallo Panther,

It has been years ago that I read Beelzebub, intriging, strange but interesting book. But cann you explain in short what was meant with " the law of sevenfoldness" and "the law of Ninefoldness".
Cannot remember what he wrote about this anymore?

Thanks :)

There is a very interesting book about the Enneagrams from Laleh Bakthiar http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Healers-Handbook-Psychology-Spiritual/dp/1871031397/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262012314&sr=8-1

In her book she found 64 possible Moral Balance/Imbalances. Using the enneagram types. With this I found a key to change this to the hexagrams. I gave already some lectures about this and it really worked. Were some very interesting evenings I had with severall groups.



A thread from some years ago about this subject (post 9 till the end, the images are not there anymore)http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=315

Frank
 
Last edited:

frank_r

visitor
Joined
Jun 20, 1971
Messages
639
Reaction score
0
Erime,

I have been giving this some thought. I think the Luo Shu can be used to follow the numbers and their corresponding elements as such:



I will try and explain.

In the Diagram Preceding Heaven, earth starts in the position that corresponds with one in the Luo Shu and ends in the position that corresponds with the number two in the Diagram Succeeding Heaven. This in turn results in wood (which starts in the number 2 position) getting displaced into metal's position (which corresponds to the number 4 position). And so on.

Please use the model in the above mentioned web site along with the Diagram Preceding and Succeeding Heaven, as well as the Luo Shu.

There appear to be two cycles, perhaps one representing yin and one yang:

First cycle: 1 - 2 - 4 and 7 ends the cycle. One doubles to two, two doubles to four, then seven and repeat. An easy to see arithmetic progression.

Second cycle: 3 - 9 - 6 and 8 ends the cycle. 3 squared is 9, 9 minus 3 = 6.
Or, if x = 3, then the pattern is: x……x*x……x*x – x, this being our familiar ternary notation progression????

Fire is not in the first cycle, water is absent the second cycle. And everything rotates around 5, earth.

This may not make any sense so please excuse my efforts, if however you can make any logic out of this, please respond!

{Reference: A Companion To Yi Jing Numerology and Cosmology by Brent Nielsen (2003) plate 4 and plate 7

robertluoshu at www.luo-shu.com
Hallo Robert,

I looked at the numbering you made, very interesting how the numbers go. 1-2-4 and ending in 7
And 3-9-6 ending in 8. In numerolgy 1+2+3+4+5+6+7= 28=10=1. And the number 8 allready has the number 9 in itself 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8 = 36=9.

The only thing is that the number 6 and 8 have to change Wood-thunder is 8 and not 6 and mountain-earth is 6 not 8. so it is ending not with 8 but with 6.

From acupuncture I know these two cycles:

Where they come from I don´t know, but I know this about the numbering:

Life starts from water, yang starts from water. When you look to the Former Heaven then the first movement is from water to fire, it's done under the force of the Planet Saturnus, seen by the Chinees as the mother that makes the first push. It's the action of the opposites that gives the movement

With the later Heaven sequence the movement also starts with water as being the first movement, on the lowest level. Again the action starts with water on yang side and action on yin side starting with fire.

In the Lo Shu you have the Earth movement starting with one and following with 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-1 . Nine is not included because it's a spiritual number a number of no change. A heavenly number not belonging by earth.

But there is also a movement from Heaven and Earth, and now there are fases of changes. In this case there is also movement with the nine.

There are two movements a yang and a yin movement.
Yang is starting with one a yin and ending with 9.

So the first is 1-2-3-4-5-9 and the other is 9-8-7-6-5-1.

When you look to the trigrams you see with the yang movement . Water - earth - thunder wind -earth(5 is no trigram but is seen as centre belonging to element earth)- fire. When you convert these trigrams to the element than you have water - earth - wood - wood earth - fire.

Then the yin movement 9-8-7-6-5-1.

Trigrams; Fire - mountain - lake - heaven -5(element earth again) - water.
Converting to elements. Fire - earth - metal - metal - earth - water.

And when you put these 12 in a circle you have the energy of the seasons, With 4 elements of earth before a season is starting.
The last are the merdidians how they are running in the body.






Most of this I already wrote some time ago in this thread maybe also interesting for you. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=3833&page=17
 
Last edited:

pantherpanther

visitor
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
762
Reaction score
0
Hallo Panther,

It has been years ago that I read Beelzebub, intriging, strange but interesting book. But cann you explain in short what was meant with " the law of sevenfoldness" and "the law of Ninefoldness".
Cannot remember what he wrote about this anymore?

Thanks :)

There is a very interesting book about the Enneagrams from Laleh Bakthiar http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Healers-Handbook-Psychology-Spiritual/dp/1871031397/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262012314&sr=8-1

In her book she found 64 possible Moral Balance/Imbalances. Using the enneagram types. With this I found a key to change this to the hexagrams. I gave already some lectures about this and it really worked. Were some very interesting evenings I had with severall groups.



A thread from some years ago about this subject (post 9 till the end, the images are not there anymore)http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=315

Frank
Frank,
Laleh Bakhtiar's work is inspired by Sufism. Although some of her work is fine, it doesn't relate to Gurdjieff's teaching regarding the enneagram; rather, to what others who didn't know his teaching (as Ichazo, Palmer, and many others, including some Catholics! ) invented from and popularized about it.

You may not know that Robert posted an article that distorted the enneagram ,the "Rodin Coil," on another thread http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=103480#post103480
and invited me to this thread after I had commented on Rodin, the enneagram and the dragon and turtle charts (as in 42 and 44) . Robert perhaps didn't bother to note (or grasp, I assume), my comment that a key to the enneagram was that it contains three octaves and correlated with the I Ching, etc. If he had understood my comment he need not have made his subsequent superficial comments regarding Gurdjieff's teaching, which is based on number. (Robert confused the Mexican with the Mayan,too, which suggests a lack of diligence?)

The enneagram is about universal laws. It may be approached from studying the laws of three and seven, although there are other elements to be included from Gurdjieff's teaching and "ideas." It is not about ordinary astrology and psychology. A scientist's (like Basarab Nicolescu's ) approach in terms of physics may be more useful. I think the same questions relating to the enneagram exist in studying the I Ching. In both teachings, the concept that major levels of complexity provides a framework for explaining the interaction between two adjoining levels of major complexity is relevant. The Chinese concept of Heaven,Earth and Man, the Hermetic "As above, so below," the Macrocosm and Microcosm are traditional ideas that relate.

RE: " the law of sevenfoldness" and "the law of ninefoldness".

I suggest Gurdjieff's lecture on the enneagram may be helpful. http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_enneagramtalk.htm
The ennegram is not simply about mathematics, as the closing statement makes clear to the audience.

There is another commentary which discusses this :
http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_enneagram1.htm

It quotes from Beelzebub: "And so, my boy, these great terrestrial learned beings, the [Chinese] twin brothers Choon-Kil-Tess and Choon-Tro-Pel, now saints, were the first, after the loss of Atlantis, to lay anew the foundation of this knowledge They not only laid anew the foundation of this 'totality of special information' but they were also the first on Earth to ascertain two of the three fundamental particularities of that great law about which I have told you, that is to say, they were the first to ascertain its two 'mdnel-ins' That branch of genuine knowledge, similar to the one known on the continent of Atlantis as the 'science of the seven aspects of every whole phenomenon,' they called the 'Law of Ninefoldness', and they called it thus because they added to the seven clearly differentiated manifestations of this great law, which they called 'doostzakos,' the two particularities first observed by them which they named 'sooansotoorabitzo,' a word signifying 'obligatory gap aspect of the unbroken flowing of the whole ' And they named this law thus because during their exhaustive research they became convinced beyond doubt that in all the 'cosmic transitory results' they investigated, these particularities are necessarily found at specific places in the process of this great law." (
 
Last edited:

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
Gurdjief's Music and Holy Dances

Found a web site that ties in the Enneagram, Gurdjief and his holy dances, Ouspensky, von Franz, Jung, Eliade, music, the Lo Shu, the Ho Tu, the I Ching....its got everybody and everything 'cept Karnac the UFO.​

:D

http://tap3x.net/EMBTI/j4selfc.html

Note the "Ya" shape at the bottom.

:cool:
robertluoshu at www.luo-shu.com
 

votri

visitor
Joined
Nov 25, 2009
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
Found a web site that ties in the Enneagram, Gurdjief and his holy dances, Ouspensky, von Franz, Jung, Eliade, music, the Lo Shu, the Ho Tu, the I Ching....its got everybody and everything 'cept Karnac the UFO.​

:D

http://tap3x.net/EMBTI/j4selfc.html

Note the "Ya" shape at the bottom.

:cool:
robertluoshu at www.luo-shu.com
Robertluoshu,

That link doesn't show the correct way of connecting the He Tu (Ha Do) to the Enneagram of Personality. The Asian way of showing the enneagram is:

VoTri
 

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
Enneagrams

VoTri-

Yes, that is my point, there are many schools of thought on the Enneagram. These are opinions of how to use the Enneagram to suit a particular need, and these opinions can be supported by a personalized way of looking at Number.

No one way is right and no one way is wrong. It is open to interpretation to devise a system that works for that particular person or group.

Ideology is a personal quest and one is going to choose the most ideal path that gives that person the fullest confidence. It is all about what one chooses to believe and we all have a different belief system.

We all feel that we are on the right path and it is exciting to have such a belief. I feel that I have discovered new things about the Lo Shu. You feel you understand the Ho Tu as the Map of the Universe. Erime feels that he has discovered the King Wen sequence. And Gurdjief believed in Beelzebug and UFO's, in the end Gurdjief may prove to be right. In the end, we may all be right. And wrong as well.

We are all on the path looking for answers and then there are some who feel they have all the answers.

The bottom line is: What Do We Really Know?

That is why I like Math, it does not create illusion, Math tells the truth.

And a mathematician always has the right to say "Prove It."

robertluoshu at www.luo-shu.com
 

frank_r

visitor
Joined
Jun 20, 1971
Messages
639
Reaction score
0
Robertluoshu,

That link doesn't show the correct way of connecting the He Tu (Ha Do) to the Enneagram of Personality. The Asian way of showing the enneagram is:

VoTri
Hello Votri,

This is a interesting link between the enneagram and the Pre and post heaven sequence.
Do you have some articles where they explain this further?
But what is the link with the enneagrams? I see that the figure is like the enneagram but in a way I sense that I miss something.

Thanks :)
 
Last edited:

votri

visitor
Joined
Nov 25, 2009
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
RobertLuoShu,

If you like to learn more about LoShu and see how to apply that to the enneagram, then let's me give you a hand.

Start out with the Ying-Yang Pakua. Then apply LoShu number on Ying Yang Pakua. This require you to exchange the number 2 & 8. By doing this, you are converting the ying-yang pakua to the Pre-Heaven Pakua.
Now apply the enneagram to the Pre-Heaven Pakua, you will then get the Later-Heaven PaKua. You will get the number in the 1,2,3,4 on the women side and 6,7,8,9 on the man side, as expected without violating the ying-yang pakua



As for applying number to the 12 zodiac, I recommended that you reserve that idea for Ha Do. I have already proved and used in Zi Wei Dou Shu.

VoTri
 
Last edited:

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
Frank,

Can you see from VoTri's posting that the number pattern transition from the Pre Heaven Pa-Kua to the Latter Heaven Pa-Kua is:

1-2-4-7 then repeats, and

3-9-6-8 then repeats.

robertluoshu at www.luo-shu.com
 

robertluoshu

visitor
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
82
Reaction score
0
The enneagram and the lo shu

THE ENNEAGRAM AND THE LO SHU

The above three magic squares are the first three arrangements of numbers beginning with zero, featuring 4, 5, and 6 as center numbers.

Every row, column, or diagonal forms a three digit number; the corresponding three digit number in the adjacent square has a difference of 111.

Some interesting notes about the Enneagram:
  • the numbers 147, 258, and 369 occur in all three arrangements of numbers
  • These numbers are seperated by a difference of 111.
  • 111 is the constant of the 6x6 Magic Square, the square of the Sun, 666 is the total sum of all the numbers in the 6x6 MS.
  • The pattern of increments of 111 would begin with 36, or 6*6.
  • The numbers: 36, 147, 248, 369, 480, 591, 702 fall into pattern in the 27x27 Magic Square
  • 702 is equal to 729 - 27 (or X*X - X, when X = 27, relevant to the 27x27 MS).
More:
If the numbers of the Enneagram are read backwards:
  • 9 - 3*3 and the 9x9 Magic Square
  • 63 - Add 6(111) and you get 729 or the square of 27
  • 85 - is the center number of the 13x13 Magic Square, a key to the calendar.
  • 27 - 3*3*3 and the 27x27 Magic Square is the key to the calendar
  • 41 - Represents the center number of the 9x9 Magic Square. The constant of the 9x9 Magic Square is 369. That is, any row, column, or diagonal of the square adds up to 369. (Or, 9*41).
Therefore, the 3x3 (square of Saturn), 6x6 (square of the Sun), and 9x9 (square of the Moon) Magic Squares are seemingly connected to the Enneagram.:bows:

The Lo Shu was revered by the early Chinese because they considered it a model for Time (as in the calendar) and Space (as in the Pythagorean Theorem).

The Enneagram seems to share these characteristics as a model for Time and Space; the numbers seem to point to the numbers of Magic Squares.

Magic Squares were a big deal thousands of years ago and were a part of the Yi Jing.

Could this be more evidence?
 
Last edited:

pantherpanther

visitor
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
762
Reaction score
0
Robert,
I don't know what organic, practical experience they related to the magic squares. With the Enneagram, the numbers may relate, but the diagram is a partial representation of different levels of energy (it contains three octaves and a process in which they can relate in different ways) which is not
really shown in the 2D drawing- rather,it is indicated. A true mathematical model may be there or perhaps only a part of one (and this may be intentional).
To practice the Movements, as the multiplication 142857 etc. , engages one in the process the E describes. That can reveal an experience of Time and Space and laws which is verifiable but not expressible in words or the figure of the Enneagram. It couldn't be otherwise with any objective work of art, for example. A statue of a Buddha that was made by those who had conscious knowledge and placed that it, can raise the consciousness of an observer (as well as touch the being of all people, whatever their knowledge or development). A sacred Mass can do the same. Perhaps the Enneagram is not on the level of some sacred symbols, but was created as a bridge to the sacred for those who needed assistance in that direction. What I am suggesting is it is not "complete" and was not intended to be. It was to be a guide, so to speak. I have at moments seen the symbol of the E as "alive," which leaves me in question as to its "completeness'." Is it sacred or objective? I don't know. it may still be a guide to the sacred, and that was part of what I experienced. In working with Movements, the dances the whole being is involved and different levels of energy are worked with consciously.
 
Last edited:

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top