"The Passion of the Christ"... the 2nd coming?

[tashij]

i saw stuff about gibson's movie, it looks completely violent and bludgeoning. i am not so jaded that i can call visual images of suffering kitsch. so sorry guys. apologize for my kidding around. i have no interest in seeing this movie.

why dont they make hysterical movies 'socrates was poisoned'.

 

[bigdogrrr]

They didn't make the movie "Hemlock!" because Johnny Depp insisted on playing Socrates with a lisp (a little tiring on the audience since they wanted to include most of 'The Republic') and Julia Roberts wasn't available to play Mrs. Socrates.

 

[frandoch]

In Dostoevsky's masterpiece, BROTHERS KARAMAZOV, he has a beautiful story about Jesus coming back to the earth one day.
Of course he had chosen Sunday, because on the other six days who will take care of him? Who will bother about him? Sunday... and he had chosen the right place -- in the center of the town, before the church. People were coming out of the church after the sermon in the morning, and Jesus was standing there on a platform under a tree, waiting to see whether they recognize him or not.
The crowd gathered. They said, "He looks like Jesus Christ. What a strange coincidence! Certainly he is a hippie, but he looks exactly like Jesus Christ." Listening to this, that they are thinking he is a hippie, Jesus said, "No, I am not a hippie. You are my people. You worship me in the church, you have my statue on the cross. You can't recognize me?" The people were in shock, looking at each other.
What to do? They said, "As far as we are concerned, it does not matter whether you are a hippie or Jesus Christ. One thing you should do quickly -- because the bishop is coming out; if he sees you, you will be in trouble -- you escape as fast as you can!" Jesus could not believe it! He said, "Wait! You are ignorant people, you don't understand. You don't recognize me, but my bishop -- who has been teaching my teachings his whole life, kneeling down before my statue, praying to me every day -- certainly he will recognize me."
The bishop came, the crowd gave way. The bishop came near, looked from up to down, from down to up, and thought, "Looks exactly like Jesus Christ. A great actor!" And he said, "You get down from the platform! You get down immediately!"
Jesus said, "Don't you recognize me?" He said, "I have recognized you. You get down!" And he told a few people in the crowd, "Catch hold of him and take him inside the church, and lock him up there." Jesus said, "What are you doing? You must be joking! The people who crucified me of course were not my people. The rabbis of course were not my followers, but you are my follower...." He said, "You keep quiet! You simply do what you are being told to do."
And Jesus was locked in a small cabin, dark, dismal. He could not believe what was happening. "These people go on praying, `When are you coming?' Now I have come -- and this is the treatment you give to the founder of your religion?"
The whole day, hungry, thirsty, he waited. In the middle of the night somebody opened the door.
The bishop entered, put a candle on the windowsill, fell at the feet of Jesus Christ and said, "I had recognized you, but I cannot recognize you in front of people. You will destroy our whole business. With great difficulty we have established the firm! It took us tremendous labor, fights, bloodshed, wars; finally, somehow we have managed the church. And you should be proud of us, that we are the biggest religion in the whole world. The largest number of people belong to your religion.
"But I cannot accept you, recognize you, in front of the crowd for the simple reason that people of your type are always rebellious, dangerous. It is good when you are dead, but it is not good when you are alive! You will disrupt everything, you will destroy everything!
"You were saying to the people, `Blessed are the poor.' Now the Vatican is the richest place in the whole world. The pope rules over the greatest kingdom anybody can rule -- immense power, immense riches. You will disturb things; we cannot allow it to happen.
"You need not come, we are taking care of your business perfectly well. So you have to decide: either you get out and get lost -- with due respect -- or we will have to crucify you again tomorrow morning, because there is no other way to deal with you. When you are dead, we worship you; when you are alive, we crucify you."

Michael F.

 

[jte]

Hrmm. I think I will go see it despite the negative aspects.

From a recent post: "So choose your lower energy experiences with care--choose what KNOW can be transmuted into higher energy. Lower energy is not necessarily bad, but can be bad if we don't choose carefully."

Tashij, you're probably wiser than me in that way.

With 6 billion people running around, it seems (only seems) that one can hardly say anything meaningful without it being a provocation.

Sadly, the bludgeoning is also reality.

- Jeff

 

[tashij]

life and deeath of christ offers no different meditations than this:

1.? I am subject to aging. Aging is unavoidable.

2.? I am subject to illness. Illness is unavoidable.

3.? I am subject to death. Death is unavoidable.

4.? I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.

5.? I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and live dependent on my actions. Whatever I do, for good or for ill, to that will I fall heir.

"Similarly, of all mindfulness meditation, that on death is supreme.?

to transmute.

 

[candid]

Hi Jeff,

All speaking is vain in the end. But all living things speak, some more subtly than others. Speaking is always a risk, especially when speaking one's closer thoughts. Socrates spoke something meaningful and was made to eat hemlock. Jesus spoke something meaningful and was crucified. We speak our minds here and are occasionally ridiculed. Speaking something meaningful is always a risk.

Oh well.

C

 

[tashij]

the problem with speaking is that always so many more words and thoughts to follow!!!! lol!!!!!

my teacher told us a story. in tibet, there was always some fighting between the schools. there was a famous lama who the lamas of another school decided was bad, and they went to kill him. he said, 'ok, you can kill me, but first let me say some prayers'. so , the lama's said, 'fine, then we will kill you'. they left him in front of the statue, and when they came back, there was nothing there but fingernails and hair and rainbow body. the lama did not want the lamas to make bad karma by killing him, so he left.

why cant christianity get to that point?

 

[candid]

chucklin here, Tash.. thanks for that.

 

[bigdogrrr]

Tash -

Maybe you should study Christianity a little bit. No Christian would accept your summary of the meaning of Christ's life and death. I'm not sure any Buddhist would either. It is suffering, not death, that lies at the center of Buddha's concern.

 

[bigdogrrr]

Tash -

Also your little story is a standard bit of hagiography. There a many similar stories in the lives of the Christian saints, people who chose to sacrifice themselves so that others might not suffer the consequences of sin. On one level, that is precisely the story of Jesus, is it not?

 

[candid]

Hi Bigdogrr,

The story of Jesus is subject to the story teller. Even Christians can't agree among themselves on exactly what that story is. Is salvation through grace or works? Can salvation be lost or is it sealed forever? Not to mention Catholicism, the "Universal" doctrine of Christ. Or Mormonism, where male adherents receive their own planet to rule over after their death, and are served by "the weaker sex as slaves." Is the rapture doctrinally sound, or was it added to cannon centuries AD? And what of the various spins on the tithe?

Maybe YOU should study Christianity a bit more before criticizing another's point of view of a story no-one knows about with certainty.

C

 

[bigdogrrr]

Sorry, Candid, I don't follow your argument. I don't know of any mainline Christian group that doesn't see Christ's death as a sacrifice of some sort. Nobody said anything about salvation. Or about the Mormons. Tashi is just plain wrong. Why put up with that?

 

[candid]

Bigdogrrr,

How can you say Tashi is wrong? She merely shared a story that was told her. The story had its own moral and point, though its to be interpreted freely and without dogmatic reference. Her only personal comment was, "why cant christianity get to that point?" I think that's a fair question, in light of the story. Why can't Christianity get to the point of not damning the world, redeemed only by the suffering of a perfectly innocent man. The suffering savior did much the same in eliminating the bad karma of those who would kill him, by praying - Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. The only difference is that the lama just disappeared, leaving only evidence of his ascension.

C

 

[madversity]

hi. yes this is a sensitive issue. so ill try and keep it short.

1. socrates CHOSE to die and in doing so he exercised his final act of free choice. and since this was considered to b the transitory world of deception and ignorance, i dont think he was bothered.

2. as for jesus, it always frightens me when history is rewritten in the minds of men, esp in my people. it only brings to hate, violence and vanity.

3. i admit i am esp touchy being a jew. jesus was jewish. he was human. he was a prophet. he was not accepted as one by the very corrupt leadership at the temple at his time.

4. it was the time of a major jewish holiday and in gesture the romans pardoned a prisoner. the jews in power informed the romans they would b very happy if jesus, who was a prisoner of the romens at the time, would b snuffed. the romans agreed, for political reasons i supposed and pardoned some one else, not jesus.

judaism was the first and only monotheistic religion at the time and supposing jesus was the sun of god that would undermine the whole idea of belief in one, inseperable being.

our daily choices dont usually touch upon life and death. what is our value system, what should it b? these r big issues but none the less answerable by each of us. we act on them. not talk.

and about jesus i suppose he was exempt from having to return to our world again and b forever one with his god.

im sorry my 'speech' is completely out of context cuz i couldnt cover all the text. thanks for listening

 

[bigdogrrr]

Hmmmmm... I think I agree with what you're saying, Candid. In fact, it's a rather interesting point, if I've got it right. The lama just disappeared. No drama, no speeches, no angels, no rolling stones, no coming back from the dead to make sure people understand what's going on and appreciate the sacrifice. Poof, the lama's gone, and it's up to you to figure out why. Or not. Either way, the lama did what he had to do, the bodhisattva thing to do. No big deal. If that is Tashi's point, then I owe her an apology. I'm really not sure Christianity has gotten to that point after all.

 

[tashij]

well, yes i am wrong, in saying christianity offers no different meditations than the ones listed above. yes, plain wrong, it's true.

i do see buddhist themes in christ's story and passion, i'll keep it to myself. or think it out better before posting.

but the historical buddha did say the supreme meditation is on death. it is not the only one, but the meditation on death will cut thru to wisdom very quickly. it is part of the pali canon.

i appreciate the stories of christian martyrs who sacrficed themselves for the sake of others. i am always moved by their lives. i love jesus, and i love the story of jesus, i read his story and prayed to him for years.

in my country, the christian right holds powerful positions in government. flannery o'connor, the great catholic short story writer wrote a story using jesus' words "the violent bear it away". in it, she satirizes small minded christian people. jesus life and story, in my eyes, appears always to be co-opted by the hands of the violent. guess it wont change.

 

[tashij]

yes candid, you did spell out -better than i - what the point of the story was. the lama was a very developed person, and was able to leave without making a trauma for everyone. the story finished that the lamas who wanted to kill him all understood, became even higher realized, and felt increased awe and respect for all sentient beings.

thanks for the challenge guys.

 

[candid]

Geeze, Mad, your "speech" couldn't be more right on. Love your points. Socrates did choose to die rather than deny his truth. I think that's true of Jesus as well. He could have punked out. Why not? Judas did, and even got paid off for it. As to whether Jesus came back or not, word I got is, he was fed up with the carpenter?s union and returned as an accountant.

Bigdogrrr, right, poof, gone - no big deal. I don't know of course but I imagine that's how Jesus would have preferred it. He, the man who pointed to the lilies of the field and said, behold, not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed in such splendor as these, is unlikely to have desired such an elaborate display of his execution, not to mention the fuss over him for the next two millennium. That's not how he lived and I doubt its how he'd choose to die. Maybe if he knew earlier in advance he may have left his fingernails and hair. Then, maybe not.

C

 

[gene]

According to the biblical story, maybe historically true or not, the Romans released one prisoner as a principle. The Jews were asked, which will it be, Jesus of Nazareth, or Jesus Barabbas. The interesting thing is, barabbas means son of the father. Which Jesus was which? Will the real Jesus please stand up? The story has been written and rewritten, yet with all the historical literalist church's perversions of the story, a hidden drama still abounds. The story here too is of involution and evolution. The Jesus story as a whole is this, and the death and crucifixion is the story in miniature. The spirit is brought down into matter. In the ascension, the spirit is victorious over matter. In Jesus death, the spirit is entombed in matter. In his resurrection, there is the victory of spirit over matter. For matter is just a reflection of the spirit, and spirit of matter. As yin is a reflection of yang and vice versa. The story is not to be taken literally. Unless you belong to the traditional literalist church, but that church's doctrines won out by the power of the sword. The cross is the symbol of space and time. One section being space, the other time. And the son of man is crucified into space and time when he is reincarnated into a physical body. One section of the cross yin, the other yang.

The ancient sun god died on December 24th, and rose again, rising higher in the sky on December 25th, which corresponded with the ancient winter solstice, and the month of Capricorn, where the goat ascends the mountain, where the prodigal son ascends back to his father. The Jesus story existed long before Jesus, The things written about Jesus were also written about one of the Greek gods. The same story almost to detail can be found in ancient Egyptian myths. The sayings of Jesus have been found in literature dating hundreds of years before his existence. There is a deeper meaning here.

Gene

 

[lenardthefast]

Most of the Jesus story was borrowed from Mithraism, a very popular religion among the Roman legions. Oh, and BTW, in the oldest Bible existant on the planet today; the one stolen from the St. Catherine's monastary in the Sinai, which was sold to the Brits for $100,000 by Stalin, there is NO mention of a resurrection. None, nada, zilch. But whenever I mention this to my Catholic friends they go into apoplexy.

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[Frankelmick]

Gene,

Earlier this month, I went to talk given by Astrid Fallon who is an astrologer who specialises in using declination. Have you heard of her?

(Declination is how far the Sun, Moon and the planets are North or South of the celestial equator. The equivalent of latitude.

Most astrology looks at where the planets are relative to the background of the tropical Zodiac. The equivalent of longitude.)

Astrid was saying that she believes that the Zodiac symbolism comes from declination.

You wrote, "The ancient sun god died on December 24th, and rose again, rising higher in the sky on December 25th, which corresponded with the ancient winter solstice, and the month of Capricorn, where the goat ascends the mountain, where the prodigal son ascends back to his father."

Yes. Astrid was saying that since the Winter Solstice is the point where the Sun is at its lowest declination, the image of the mountain-goat is the animal best placed to take on the long climb back up towards the zero point of the vernal equinox.

I thought the talk was fascinating.

Best wishes,

Mick

 

[gene]

Hi Mick

No I haven't heard of her, but I do some astrology, and the precession of the equinoxes is what makes the "Great year" Now, as the sun is about to enter into the sign of aquarius in terms of the great year, we are in for some major changes in this planet. On the sphynx in Egypt is the form of a lion and a man/woman combined. They represent the signs Leo and Aquarius. For when the sun reaches these two signs, as a rule, it changes its magnetic polarity, and causes a shift in the earth's axis. This is why ancient Egypt placed so much emphasis on these two signs. Now, the other two fixed signs, Taurus and Scorpio have in them what might be called the "Stargate." Near the Scorpio Sagittarius border is the center, or womb of the galaxy. Esoterically this is what Jesus was talking about when he talked about the last days, as a woman in travail, but joyful when her son is born. For here, at the center of the galaxy, square to Aquarius and Leo is the stargate where a new man in a sense will be born, out of the chaos of the old. Like the phoenix, (scopionic eagle) he rises out of the ashes of the destruction of the old world. I don't fear death too much, but I would like to see what happens on December 22, 2012, because I believe there is an allusion to this in the book of revelations, where it says, the heavens shall be opened like a scroll, (the stargate?) and they shall see the son of man (The constellation of Orion), sitting on the right hand of the father. It is all uniquely and utterly fascinating. I have only scratched the surface of this journey, but since I belong to no secret societies, nobody is yet offering me the keys to the scriptures. Hopefully someday I will be found worthy.

Gene

 

[Frankelmick]

Gene,

Astrid Fallon's web address is

http://www.fallon.demon.co.uk

Best wishes,

Mick

 

[gene]

For anyone interested in looking at an alternative view of Christianity and history, here are two websites that might be of some interest. http://knight-lomas.com/index2.html and, http://www.robertlomas.com/

Gene

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Gene,

Interesting that you mentioned Knight/Lomas. I've read all of their books (have one signed by Knight), even the latest "The Book of Hiram". Quite controversial for Christians, but very interesting nevertheless. Something to be read with an open mind.

The thoroughness of their research, though some of their conclusion may appear quite farfetched, have changed a few of my views regarding Christianity.

What's your opinion on their work?

L

 

[gene]

Hi Sparhawk

I have read his first book, only listened to talk shows about his second. I have seen the new book at Barnes and Noble and will pick it up eventually. I have had "The DaVinci Code" recommended to me too. They say it is really going to shake up Christianity. Right now, as we speak, I am listening to a talk by Gregg Braden http://www.greggbraden.net/ about new science evidence of a "God code" written right into our cells. As I listen I am hearing that there is coming out more and more evidence that there were ancient civilizations on this planet that were highly evolved. Also, the genetic code shows that we have been genetically manipulated. They have now been able to find genetic material of neanderthals which is different than ours and apparently existed side by side with man. Also mentions newly discovered Hebrew documents that go into the creation story far more completely than biblical texts. (Remember the Sumerian texts I have mentioned?) In the book of Daniel it says that in the last days knowledge shall be greatly increased. The lies we were taught both in school and in Sunday school are now being exposed.

Gene

 

[gene]

Another website some may find very interesting is: http://williamhenry.net/

Gene

 

[lenardthefast]

Hi Luis,
I read "The Hiram Key" and throughly enjoyed it. One of my hobbies is studying the Knights Templar and their role(?) in establishing the United States. There is a wealth of information in the Hiram Key on that subject. I haven't read the second book yet but I will get around to it.

While on this subject I might ask whether you have any knowledge (or anyone else on the forum), as to whether they have been allowed to excavate the basement of Rosslyn Chapel yet? The authors were convinced that the scrolls believed excavated by the Templars in Jerusalem were interred there. Thanks.

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Gene and Leonard,

Actually, Knight and Lomas have four books out and the very nice websites that Gene mentioned.

The second book is "The Second Messiah", the third is "Uriel's Machine" and the one that just came out in the US (I bought it six months ago from Amazon in the UK) is "The Book of Hiram"

The history of the Knights Templar's is fascinating indeed. I have quite a few books about them.

To answer your question about Rosslyn Chapel, no, at the very last moment the Trustees of the Chapel withdrew their permit and to this day, almost eight years after the Hiram Key they still are not allowed to excavate. So, who knows, your guess is as good as mine as to wether the Trustees are hiding something or not...

L

 

[cal val]

Okay... now the REAL news on the movie is coming out... not just the Gibson-camp pre-fabricated news...

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Last night, Assemblyman Dov Hikind (D-Brooklyn) attended an early premiere of the film at the Jersey Gardens Cineplex in Edison, N.J. He said he was "left numb" by the film's portrayal of Jews.

"I have no doubt that this is capable of causing violence against Jews," Hikind said.

But Gibson insisted he was "evenhanded" and said he was faithful to the Gospels, which in essence say that Jews set Jesus up and the Romans did him in.

"They were brutal," Gibson said of the Roman soldiers who marched Jesus up Golgotha. "They were more afraid of their own commanding officers than they were of the enemy."

Gibson also denied Jewish accusations that he let Pontius Pilate off the hook for Jesus' execution.

"He actually condemned a man to death who ... he thought was innocent," he said. "He's a monster."

But in the movie, Pilate repeatedly refuses to order Jesus' execution and relents only under pressure from the Jewish high priest Caiaphas and his Pharisee followers.

Also, Pilate's wife, Claudia, is openly sympathetic to the Virgin Mary and gives her the towel with which she sops up Jesus' blood after He endures a stomach-churning flogging that is the sadistic centerpiece of the ultraviolent movie."

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/167331p-146310c.html<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Btw, one of the little pieces of gossip circulating around the film industry before I left... long before this film was in production... is that Mel Gibson's father is very outspoken in his hatred for Jews and Mel is a chip off the old block.

Love,

Val