The power of the negative

[mollies]

Today I had a talk with someone about people that manage to spoil everything, by being obviously selfish, mistrusting, doubting your good intentions, even calling you names.

He works in a shop for artsupplies. He says, it is so striking, that you can have 30 nice and friendly customers, and they all make you feel that life is good, and then ONE single person can come and spoil your WHOLE day, by being negative.

How can that power be so strong?
Is it the same the other way round too? Can ONE nice and positive person make a miserable day full of disappointments, harsh and ugly people make your day go shine again?

I think YES

But I did ask the Yi about it. About the power of the negative.
And it said: Hexagram 29

I wonder if anyone here can make something of it?

Carin

 

[Tohpol]

Hi Carin,

Interesting.

29 seems to be a perfect description of that state of negativity that can haul us down into the pit. And boy, can others drag you down into it as well!

It reminds me of my own mood and psychology when I'm confronted with someone who has a big chip on his or her shoulder, or has had a really rough time of it. When someone is feeling that way they are looking to claw back the energy they are lacking for whatever reason. If we are feeling ok then that can act as a prime real estate for those needing a top up. Feed me!!

The best defence for that I reckon is to not react but to be as cheerful as can be. But this is not mere sentiment but a real defence of one's own well being. To react to that negativity would be to lose our own energy and thereby feed the other. By not reacting and maintaing our centre that "lightness" can effect the other and they drop the negative wall to receive some positive Vibes which are being offered. Sometimes...

Hex 29 suggests ways around this where:

"the hexagram is intended to designate an objective situation to which one must become accustomed, not a subjective attitude. For danger due to a subjective attitude means either foolhardiness or guile. Hence too a ravine is used to symbolize danger; it is a situation in which a man is in the same pass as the water in a ravine, and, like the water, he can escape if he behaves correctly."

All about right behaviour and not reacting, remaining calm and seeing clearly what is going on. It reminds me of Carlos Castaneda's Don Juan character who talked of "petty tyrants" meaning those who were of an entirely negative predisposition but provided lots of opportunities for the sorcerers to "enjoy themselves blue." They could do this because they were able to test their fortitude, strength of will and endurance and thus become closer to their "power" without giving away any of that precious energy. Same principle for the rest of us wishing to make some kind of spiritual progress. I think this was the message of "love thine enemies" - not to let them walk all over you or even to turn the other cheek, but to defend ourselves from those negative attacks by holding onto the positive and reflecting it back.

We do and can effect each other in such powerful ways. It reminds me to make more of an effort when I meet someone if only for a while. Its a 55/58 moment perhaps that can catapult us out of 29?

topal

 

[bruce_g]

outstanding

 

[willowfox]

Hex 29 is about the danger that you face everyday, the events, the types of people that you meet. Hex 29 is saying that when you get used to that danger then it will no longer cause you any problems, you will have a built in resistance to most problems and troublemakers. Life is a problem but one accepts it and carries on, making things turn out a success and not to be thwarted by insignificant problem people that one meets along the way.
So never become a victim or give into emotional responses, do not be depressed or despair but keep on moving forward with a strong resolve. Live each day as it comes and deal with each problem in a calm, cool way, that way one will never get ruffled by idiots.

Unfortunately, rather hard to do at times.

 

[mollies]

I don't know about 'getting used to danger.'

Wilhelm:
Getting used to the obective situation.

In human relations K'an pictures the heart, locked up in the body: the soul -and the light locked up in the dark: the mind.

Maybe one can get used to the idea, that there are angry people.
Angry people make you feel in danger. They want you to shut up, make you think that you're no good, or defy you to make a mistake where they can catch you..

In the NOW that is very difficult, to NOT show subjected attitude. Afterwards, when the tremblings are gone, you can. But I'm sure one can develope a strenght here.

I believe in the unexpected.
When someone shows negative behaviour in order to impress you, he will not expect you to be nice, kind and goodwilling. He expects you shouting too, or get scared and give in.
This pattern broken, new things can happen.

Wilhelm. I read:
"If you are sincere, you have success in your heart,
And whatever you do succeeds."

"Thus the superior man walks in lasting virtue
And carries on the business of teaching."

So if you are superior in your sincerity, you can even teach the angry one to let go his negativism.

C

 

[Trojina]

Maybe one can get used to the idea, that there are angry people.
Angry people make you feel in danger. They want you to shut up, make you think that you're no good, or defy you to make a mistake where they can catch you..

"Thus the superior man walks in lasting virtue
And carries on the business of teaching."

So if you are superior in your sincerity, you can even teach the angry one to let go his negativism.

C

The problem I see here is the belief that there are objectively 'angry people'. Seems worth bearing in mind anger is not their be all and end all, it does not define them, its only that they seem to be angry with us at some moment. And we might label their behavious 'anger' because we have valued it negatively. Anger can be dangerous, but it comes and goes, flows in and out and often when we meet it its often very unexpected, 29. Its an illusion that there are some people who are 'troublemakers' and there is one way to deal with them. Its likley every one appears as a troublemaker to someone else at some point.


That doesn't however answer the original question of why a negative behaviour from someone can really impact so strongly on the day and whether the positives can change ones outlook as equally.

Funny I had noticed recently how compliments tend to fade to the back of peoples minds and insults remain forever, especially with children. Time and time over people have related to me how someone made a remark about their teeth/nose/body shape when they were young and how it has stuck with them and made them self conscious about that thing for their entire lives. One sad example was a friend of mine who told me as a young girl she was sitting brushing her hair in the mirror and her mother came in and said nastily "I don't know what you're doing that for you're not pretty". I never met anyone who had such a negative self image and it affected her life a great deal.

But how come - after all its likley just as many people made pleasant comments to her. It does seem to me negative comments have the power to stick faster than good ones. (In that case her youth accounted for it and the fact the aggressor was her mother I guess.) But I've also known people take much to heart comments from people who didn't even know them.

It might be that when people compliment us we don't really believe it, maybe think they are just trying to be nice, whereas insults somehow seem more true.

Anyway I feel 29 in answer to your question indicates others anger is a danger one navigates in the world, the important thing being you retain your centre, your sincerity, it does not blow you off course. Children though are far more vulnerable, especially with negativity from those close. I don't think 29 advises more than holding to your own centre here, I don't see it advising one to take someones anger as an opportunity to 'educate' them.

On the bright side though yes a random kind act from someone or a pleasant remark can often transform my day from a grey one to a bright one. Hmm however I probably won't remember it for years to come, and I'm afraid an angry unprompted outburst from someone sticks in the mind for much longer.

 

[mollies]

The problem I see here is the belief that there are objectively 'angry people'.

.... I don't see it advising one to take someones anger as an opportunity to 'educate' them.

The problem I see here is the belief that there are objectively 'angry people'.

.... I don't see it advising one to take someones anger as an opportunity to 'educate' them.

There is OFCOURSE no belief there are 'angry people' and not angry people. Being angry in their being.
(However. . ??? But that is a different discussion)
But I do see, that there are people (also children, in my class) that have developed a pattern in calling up and using their anger, to achieve a certain effect, to have their will. They have this mechnism, because of many possible reasons.

Also I was thinking of something I have read in the book of Dr. David Servan-Schreiber, a well known psychiatrist , where he writes about emotional communication.
One of the rules (for non-violent communication) he describes here, is to avoid any judgement about the other, but instead concentrating only on our own feelings. He gives an example about himself at the airport, waiting impatiently for a woman, who cannot find his reservation. He gets very angry and shouts at her, saying that she is no good for this job. She stays calm and answers: 'When you are shouting like that, I can not concentrate on helping you the way I should." Immediately he understands that she had given him a perfect opportunity to apologize, without losing face.
Which is something different than:” advising one to take someones anger as an opportunity to 'educate' them.”

C

 

[bruce_g]

Today I had a talk with someone about people that manage to spoil everything, by being obviously selfish, mistrusting, doubting your good intentions, even calling you names.

He works in a shop for artsupplies. He says, it is so striking, that you can have 30 nice and friendly customers, and they all make you feel that life is good, and then ONE single person can come and spoil your WHOLE day, by being negative.

How can that power be so strong?

In business it is said, one satisfied customer will tell two others about their positive shopping experience, while a dissatisfied customer will tell seven. People are critical and corrective by nature. You may not notice the thousand hairs on your head that are in place, but you will notice the few that are unruly. When you drive your car you don't think, "my, how nicely all the spark plugs, valves and cylinders are firing", but if the engine has a repeatable hiccup or misfire on just one valve or spark plug, you think "oh no, something is wrong." We take for granted what is right and quickly notice what is wrong. Same with our body's function. We typically don't say "how nice, that my joints move smoothly, that my muscles and nerves communicate so amazingly well with my brain." We say, "I hurt" or "my arthritis is acting up."

Is it the same the other way round too? Can ONE nice and positive person make a miserable day full of disappointments, harsh and ugly people make your day go shine again?

I think YES

I think it CAN work this way, but it takes an unusually positive person to notice, and then to acknowledge and respond positively to a "nice and positive person". There are people who just refuse anything positive, who refuse to give or receive anything positive, and are conditioned to minimize or dismiss it.

In the book "One minute manager", by Kenneth Blanchard, it advises supervisors to "catch people in the act of doing something right." This, for most, takes a lot of practice. Positive reenforcement works, but unless a person has been raised by parents and teachers who have done this, it takes self-training and repetition to acquire this skill.

But I did ask the Yi about it. About the power of the negative.
And it said: Hexagram 29

I wonder if anyone here can make something of it?

Carin

Water seeks the lowest place available. 29 reflects the human tendency to gravitate downward, rather than to levitate upward (as in 59). It's easier to sit than to stand, to sink than to swim, to be let down than to rise up. Inertia and gravity are countervailing forces, which require greater effort to overcome than it is does to yield to. But, through repetition, one can learn to recognize and respond to countervailing forces, in such a way as to uplift rather than put down. Like any other conditioned response of our mind and body, it can be trained.

 

[mollies]

'Water seeks the lowest place available.'
So it is.

Bruce, what you write about:

'Positive reenforcement works, but unless a person has been raised by parents and teachers who have done this, it takes self-training and repetition to acquire this skill"

is very true in my eyes. And I feel it' s the most interesting part, what I myself can do about it. Self-training, and also experimenting with it.

C

 

[bruce_g]

'Water seeks the lowest place available.'
So it is.

Bruce, what you write about:

'Positive reenforcement works, but unless a person has been raised by parents and teachers who have done this, it takes self-training and repetition to acquire this skill"

is very true in my eyes. And I feel it' s the most interesting part, what I myself can do about it. Self-training, and also experimenting with it.

C

Experimenting with it. A pioneering spirit. Yes, that too is 29.

 

[mollies]

Experimenting is a kind of playing, isn't it?
Innocent, not heavy at all.

C

 

[bruce_g]

Experimenting is a kind of playing, isn't it?
Innocent, not heavy at all.

C

Yep! I don't think water takes itself or anything else too seriously.

4 is water at the foot of a mountain.

 

[Tohpol]

'Water seeks the lowest place available.'
So it is.
Bruce, what you write about:
'Positive reenforcement works, but unless a person has been raised by parents and teachers who have done this, it takes self-training and repetition to acquire this skill"
is very true in my eyes. And I feel it' s the most interesting part, what I myself can do about it. Self-training, and also experimenting with it.

C

Yes, this is what it's all about I think. If we want to begin to embody the idea of progress we have to become an example of it. If we want to help others then we have to start with ourselves, hard as that can be. But kids can really respond to that consistancy.

Unfortunately, I think the damage done to children is so severe that unless that positive role model is powerful and broad enough, our narcissistic societies continue to swallow them up very quickly indeed. Once into adulthood it is very hard to re-wire the system so that the person is even conscious that there's a problem - and by "problem" I mean the array of personality disorders on show that have become "normalised." That's just the so called "developed world."

It would be great to think that there could be a more holistic, emotional intelligence centrered schooling that could replace the standard education we see now.I don't think there is anything more important than the emotional education of children and allowing them to have the tools to grow into the integrated individual they hope to be.

topal

 

[Tohpol]

Playing and story-telling! Whoo-who!

The life-blood of all children. And this particular adult too.

topal

 

[rosada]

I think of 29 as floating down a narrow corridor where one must be constantly vigilant to stay emotionally centered so as not to crash into the bordering rocks. When we are feeling things are going well, when the outer world seems friendly, we tend to become inattentive to our inner radar and become so relaxed that we become vulnerable. The mother's words wounded the girl so deeply because they were spoken precisely when the girl was so open. Many times a particularly bad experience will be prefaced with the words, "Just when everything was going so well.." the outer world had lulled us into being inattentive. But when we have "success in our heart" - that is, when we are paying attention to our inner rather than taking our bearings from success in the outer world - when we have a strong awareness of our own intention, then we stay centered, and then neither the unexpected good times nor the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune can knock us off course and therefore "whatever we do succeeds."

 

[Tohpol]

"When we are feeling things are going well, when the outer world seems friendly, we tend to become inattentive to our inner radar and become so relaxed that we become vulnerable. The mother's words wounded the girl so deeply because they were spoken precisely when the girl was so open."


I like this very much. It could be the story of childhood. learning to deal with wounds inflicted on the child for...being a child.

I think we all born into 29 and essentially have to learn how to get out without screwing ourselves up in the process.

topal

 

[rosada]

I've found it useful when something negative happens that I didn't conciously intend, to ask myself, "What if I had wanted to create that situation? What if I wanted to experience being ignored, or cheated or whatever it was that just happened? How would I go about creating that?" By asking myself how I might create such a situation willfully, I am more likely to recognize what I did do to create to the situation even though it was not intentional. Because I'm not wasting any energy denying my responcibility - which will only make me feel worse and more powerless anyway - I feel good, like I'm back in control and more likely to see how I can now set things right.
Chaos, turmoil, confusion? Yes, my work here is through...

 

[mudpie]

Playing and story-telling! Whoo-who!

The life-blood of all children. And this particular adult too.

topal

I am with you! I teach a course to graduate students in developmental counseling, and a major part of it is bibliotherapy and play therapy techniques. Interesting how the grad students, themselves, often feel a little foolish at first reading stories aloud and using a sand tray with toys, playing with puppets.......but then amazing things happen . A creative power is unleashed, the atmosphere becomes free and playful, personal stories get portrayed, even healed.

Agree that it is unfortunate that schools in general don't allow for this kind of education....social skills training is rather overlooked unless children have a deficit in some way....and even then , the social skills training is almost done as a way to get the rebellious/different child to conform to the status quo.

In regards to the 29 and angry behavior.....Today I went to a market which is notoriously crowded and the crowd notoriously RUDE!! It is so amazing to watch how contagious this rude and ME-FIRST, get-out-of-my-way attitude is....in others and in myself. Even when I go in feeling very calm, I end up feeling irritated and squeezed and inclined to be pushy myself. A dangerous place to shop (emotionally). I frequently have to stop and breathe.

These two stories of mine seem to fit together. HUman beings seem to be most themselves, their beautiful true selves, when they can be free and playful. In the dark tunnel of "the marketplace", competitiveness and people vying for space create anger....there is no room to move freely, the spirit gets crushed out.

People who acting angrily are really crying out.

 

[bruce_g]

I am with you! I teach a course to graduate students in developmental counseling, and a major part of it is bibliotherapy and play therapy techniques. Interesting how the grad students, themselves, often feel a little foolish at first reading stories aloud and using a sand tray with toys, playing with puppets.......but then amazing things happen . A creative power is unleashed, the atmosphere becomes free and playful, personal stories get portrayed, even healed.

Agree that it is unfortunate that schools in general don't allow for this kind of education....social skills training is rather overlooked unless children have a deficit in some way....and even then , the social skills training is almost done as a way to get the rebellious/different child to conform to the status quo.

In regards to the 29 and angry behavior.....Today I went to a market which is notoriously crowded and the crowd notoriously RUDE!! It is so amazing to watch how contagious this rude and ME-FIRST, get-out-of-my-way attitude is....in others and in myself. Even when I go in feeling very calm, I end up feeling irritated and squeezed and inclined to be pushy myself. A dangerous place to shop (emotionally). I frequently have to stop and breathe.

These two stories of mine seem to fit together. HUman beings seem to be most themselves, their beautiful true selves, when they can be free and playful. In the dark tunnel of "the marketplace", competitiveness and people vying for space create anger....there is no room to move freely, the spirit gets crushed out.

People who acting angrily are really crying out.

This is so right on.

If we were to create a completely mythological character, our ultimate archetypal Sage, what would he or she look like? or act like? or feel like?

I could only speak for myself, but he'd have a great sense of humor, wouldn't take himself overly seriously - having no delusions of what he is or is not - and in addition to possessing endless insight, would exude resilient innocence. Playful indeed. What he wouldn't be is a statue: someone locked inside himself or his beliefs.

I think collective groups, like those who push themselves and everyone else around them through the mall, are locked inside themselves. That's why so many appear expressionless. They put themselves on auto pilot, and just want to complete their mission. So now, what would this mythological Sage do or feel, if he or she were walking through this mall?

 

[mudpie]

(S)he would cartwheel down the center lane, weaving in and out of the clusters. or maybe he would hold a sign reading "free hugs" ( that was a sage act) or maybe she would play the harmonica and wait for a crowd to gather.
I am thinking of jesus, everywhere he went, people gathered to be near him, so contagious was his innocence and substance, but UH-OH, in the market place , they finally screamed for him to be crucified.
the Sage is both loved and hated, it seems

 

[bruce_g]

the Sage is both loved and hated, it seems

Yes, that seems to be a theme, doesn't it?

cartwheels.. love it

 

[mollies]

"So now, what would this mythological Sage do or feel, if he or she were walking through this mall?"

The only thing I can think of:

giving bread crumbs to a child so that the child can feed the birds

C

 

[heylise]

Last week taught me a little lesson. The way I would want to be so I cannot be contaminated by the low mood of so many people. I thought I should be looking at people same way I look at the veggies, some look fresh and good to eat, others you simply pass by - some people look good, others faded and not good for your health. I should not take them with more weight than I do the veggies. Just pass all those people and stay who I am. Answer a sudden smile, but hardly notice the grumpy faces.
Navigating through them that way, so I easily avoid bad places and follow the open paths.

I have been thinking about it, because I was waiting in a line at the checkout of a small shopping center, and behind me a woman cop was waiting too. She had only a package of wafers but I had a cart full. So I told her to go first. She did and thanked me, but when she left, she turned around and gave me a huge radiant smile. She was all in black, very sturdy clothing, and the smile looked all the more beautiful for it. It made my day a good one.
I could have seen the grumpy or faded or bored faces of the other people in the line, but I didn't. She was the only one I saw that day.

So I think maybe a sage would walk through the mall only seeing what matters.

LiSe

 

[mollies]

About 30 years ago I was feeling very bad because of a difficult decision I had made, and a postman in the street said something nice to me, out of nowhere. By his words he lifted me up out of the darkness, without knowing it. I do not remember the words. It was just something nice. Since then many things have happened and have been said. But what do I remember of it? Most of those things become like fog.

C

 

[Trojina]

Theres no telling what a Sage would or wouldn't do. Once we start deciding how a sage might behave we are well on the way to making rules for 'good' behaviour. The sage might behave any old way depending on how the wind blows

Hmm but the Sage must have gone to the mall for a reason ? New trainers, a pair of jeans, new underwear, highheeled shoes ? I reckon the sage doesn't notice people and treats them with equanimity cos shes more fixed on her purchases...

 

[bruce_g]

My idea of the sage was perfectly portrayed by the Sufi master in Jewel of the Nile.