Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
There is another bit of nomenclature for the Ben and Zhi Gua, one that may be found in the Shujing or Book of History and date from the Early Zhou.
Zhen Gua and Hui Gua are used respectively for original and resultant. Zhen is the same word that's usually translated persistence or determination in the Yijing. Hui is also commonly used in the Yijing and is usually translated "regret." These are assumed to depict the same relationship in time as Ben and Zhi - Zhen being the momentum of the situation, its inertia and therefore its resistance to change, Hui being the decisions or choices to be made for the future and therefore the potential for error and regret.
Zhen and Hui are also used refer to the Lower and Upper Trigram Positions in the hexagram. It is not known which is meant in the Book of History, although obviously those who don't believe trigrams existed yet must conclude that Zhen and Hui are the same as Ben and Zhi. The terms Ben and Zhi are also ancient - at least by the middle Zhou and the Zuozhuan, the phrase Qian Zhi Gou (Qian moving to Gou) indicated Line 01.1.
Zhen Gua and Hui Gua are used respectively for original and resultant. Zhen is the same word that's usually translated persistence or determination in the Yijing. Hui is also commonly used in the Yijing and is usually translated "regret." These are assumed to depict the same relationship in time as Ben and Zhi - Zhen being the momentum of the situation, its inertia and therefore its resistance to change, Hui being the decisions or choices to be made for the future and therefore the potential for error and regret.
Now, what to call the zhi gua in English? Anyone for 'second hexagram'?
Now, can you get any more "neutral" than "second hexagram"?
To me it is very much like "do I need a raincoat" (question, first hex) in the context of "well, this is the weather" (second).
So we need a term which encompasses all of yours and mine and all the others.
LiSe
Well, as far as I'm concerned, you and I have identified the difference that divides this board and makes it so very difficult for people intimately acquainted with the Yi to come to anything like agreement about what it means in itself or when used for a consultation. And that difference is this: we can't find the all-encompassing term you're asking about and looking for when you think the second hexagram is the immediate answer to the question. I have *always* taken the first hexagram as the immediate answer to the question.
Look, if we can't even agree on *that*, then my disgust/disappointment with the lack of agreement and understanding on this board is a pretty much appropriate response. For someone like me who wants understanding between people, I mean.
Look, if we can't even agree on *that*, then my disgust/disappointment with the lack of agreement and understanding on this board is a pretty much appropriate response. For someone like me who wants understanding between people, I mean.
The music analogy doesn't work here. We are not a group gathering together to produce a piece of art.
This is the 'divination/discussion area. Discussion does generally involve people having varying opinions, thats the whole point of it. If you are disapointed in the fact that people with varying ideas discuss in the discussion area of this board then I agree with you, that is sad.
I
I think what I'm going to do with this is what I do with these sorts of situations all the time. I'll look for understanding (understanding, not agreement) with people when I explore issues with them, so I know where they're coming from.
I'm pretty cool with any term you want to attach to the relating/other/second/tendential hexagram.
But what's its role relative to the main hexagram? What's the role of the main hexagram relative to the the 'second hexagon'? I think a person can make that decision for themself based on their understanding and needs. But it gets really confusing when we exchange ideas on this site and we're not even on the same page.
I think what I'm going to do with this is what I do with these sorts of situations all the time. I'll look for understanding (understanding, not agreement) with people when I explore issues with them, so I know where they're coming from.
Its not at all clear about what you mean about being on the same page ? This is just a vague term, what are you talking about ?
And who do you think it gets 'confusing' for, for you?
And a number of people did agree the second hexagran could both be seen as a context and a future development
But there is of course no solution short of the forum adopting a 'line' from which dissenters will not be tolerated.
Without getting into the personal stuff here, all I can say is that the resulting hexagram is the future hexagram for 100 out of 100 Chinese interpreters. All the rest is Western imagination.
Lindsay
Cool. So, are you saying that anybody who ascribes to a view other than those 100 Chinese guys is wrong? And are you willing to take the heat for saying so?
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).