The Relating Hexagram

[bruce_g]

Yup, it's true. Luis is always mucking with me. And that deep pit out back, it's only an old familia tradition, in case the unrefusable offer issa refused. So Luis, you come outa, eh?

Bruiser

 

[bruce_g]

There is another bit of nomenclature for the Ben and Zhi Gua, one that may be found in the Shujing or Book of History and date from the Early Zhou.
Zhen Gua and Hui Gua are used respectively for original and resultant. Zhen is the same word that's usually translated persistence or determination in the Yijing. Hui is also commonly used in the Yijing and is usually translated "regret." These are assumed to depict the same relationship in time as Ben and Zhi - Zhen being the momentum of the situation, its inertia and therefore its resistance to change, Hui being the decisions or choices to be made for the future and therefore the potential for error and regret.
Zhen and Hui are also used refer to the Lower and Upper Trigram Positions in the hexagram. It is not known which is meant in the Book of History, although obviously those who don't believe trigrams existed yet must conclude that Zhen and Hui are the same as Ben and Zhi. The terms Ben and Zhi are also ancient - at least by the middle Zhou and the Zuozhuan, the phrase Qian Zhi Gou (Qian moving to Gou) indicated Line 01.1.

Have read this several times, trying to get my head around it clearly. It roughly sounds like "persist (Zhen) or else (Hui)". That would make it an offer you can't refuse without dire consequences.

Are you listening, Luis?

But, seriously, that's an interesting way to think of it. Do I understand what you've said correctly, Brad.. more or less?

 

[Sparhawk]

Zhen Gua and Hui Gua are used respectively for original and resultant. Zhen is the same word that's usually translated persistence or determination in the Yijing. Hui is also commonly used in the Yijing and is usually translated "regret." These are assumed to depict the same relationship in time as Ben and Zhi - Zhen being the momentum of the situation, its inertia and therefore its resistance to change, Hui being the decisions or choices to be made for the future and therefore the potential for error and regret.

Ah, this is interesting, indeed. I was reading your glossary and you wrote quite a bit about zhen1 貞, that you mostly translate as "persistance." I also checked the dictionaries that I have but they mostly give a meaning of loyalty, chastity, virginity and divination. Chastity and virginity are not in your entry for zhen1 but purity, virtue and rectitude are. I see what you mean about this word applying to the original hexagram, with its momentum and inertia.

Hui3 悔 is trickier, regret and remorse being the basic meaning of the character. Hmmm. I've got to think about the reason Hui Gua was ever used to name the second (resultant) hexagram.

L

 

[heylise]

There is yet another circle at play here, a circular reference.

When scientists were puzzling about the terms they found, like "Li zhi Feng", 30 its 55, they started reasoning about it. They could not really make sense of "its". How could one hex "possess" another one? So they said, it has to be something like "going to". Because, they said, it is where the changing line makes it 'go to'.
I don't remember where I read about this, alas. I only remember it was a very respected writer, probably it was Keightley in Sources of Shang History.

Dictionaries are for a very large extent made up of the things translators do with texts. So zhi as also being directional, not only possessive, found its way into those dictionaries. Now we reason the other way around: zhi is directional, so the primal hex goes to the relating one.

I have personally no problem at all with zhi as 'its'. Compare it with a sentence like "He found his Waterloo". It does not mean someone possesses Waterloo, only that something in his life played out like Waterloo did for Napoleon.

Imagine hex.1 like a castle with 6 levels. A king built it. He started with a foundation made of stones from Gou, a region where the rocks are connected with the foundations of nature, basic instincts and such. The perfect material for a foundation, so much connected with the earth that nothing can shake the stones from their place.

On floor level doors in front and back, so everyone could go out to the world and the world could enter, true Tong Ren openings.

On the next floor bedrooms. The master bedroom where the king meets his queen in a different way, shares his emotions, get rest, or be like a Lu-tiger.

One flight higher the office, where decisions were made, figured out how income and spending could be brought in balance. The kitchens, feeding everyone. Where Xiao Chu was being looked after, the personal 'farm'.

Next the big reception rooms with balconies. There the king resides, he receives other rules, or his ministers, oversees state matters, from the balcony he can reach the people and oversee his territory, he governs his DaYou from here.

Finally at the top, in the penthouse, lives the former king (or maybe it is a crude attic with roof windows), father of this one, grandfather of the children. He has withdrawn from worldy affairs, lives so close to heaven that the can almost touch the stars. Everybody who needs advice, climbs to his room and consults him. Then he raises his GUÀI and speaks and his words are universal and wise. Except of course in those moments when he accidentally thinks it is himself who is wise.

So the bottom line is "Qian zhi Gou", second line ""Qian zhi Tong Ren" and so on. Like a floor being the castle's reception, or basement, or penthouse.

LiSe

 

[bruce_g]

This I can easily relate to, LiSe. Levels, layers, extensions, all belonging to one castle. I could not understand someone having a problem with this, as it seems obvious; and in this regard, "relating" seems also easy and obvious. Clarifying meanings of words do not always clarify their purpose, especially when the meaning of those words are metaphoric by nature. "My time has come" or "It is my time" doesn't mean I own time, but that I and Time meet.

 

[hilary]

Wonderful posts, thank you. The castle-building is lovely, and so is 'meeting his Waterloo' or 'my time'. That's how I (often) think of 'relating' hexagrams: what it is for me. (And that could also become a direction or t******* that I somehow give to things.)

Now, what to call the zhi gua in English? Anyone for 'second hexagram'?

 

[bruce_g]

chuckling here about the t-word

"Contextual hexagram" is how I usually think of it. It's the lake fishies swim in. The lake plays a role in the fish's future, but the context is not always about the future.

There's no doubt "resulting" also applies, since mechanically, that's how it evolves. Inherent in the evolution is its origin. Yet, without context the origin can't exist. Chicken and egg.

 

[Sparhawk]

Now, what to call the zhi gua in English? Anyone for 'second hexagram'?

Hey, I used that one first in this thread!! I'll claim royalties on it if it becomes popular...

Now, can you get any more "neutral" than "second hexagram"? In case that wasn't obvious, or perhaps too obvious to see, that was my goal: neutrality. I know, I know, it doesn't translate to Zhi Gua or Hui Gua...


L

 

[dobro p]

Now, can you get any more "neutral" than "second hexagram"?

Sure. 'Other' hexagram. If you say 'second', it really sounds like it comes after the first one.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of the other hexagram providing context for the primary hexagram though, and here's why: context tends to control what's contained in it, context tends to be at a higher level of organization and operating with a slightly different set of laws than the thing that's part of context. So for instance, the human body is the context for all of the different parts and systems contained in it, and the purpose of each part is subservient to the purpose of the whole body. Now, when I ask the Yi a question, I'm interested in a response that tells me about the most important aspect of what I'm asking about, not a lower-level, contingent aspect of the whole thing. That's the first reason I don't like the 'other' hexagram to be about context.

The second reason I don't like it is because it's different from what I *do* like about thinking of the two hexagrams (primary and other) as a kind of weather report, which says: "Okay, this is what's happening right now, and here's the direction that present conditions see to moving in." Today's weather and tomorrow's weather, in other words. Very, very useful.

 

[heylise]

To me it is very much like "do I need a raincoat" (question, first hex) in the context of "well, this is the weather" (second).

So we need a term which encompasses all of yours and mine and all the others.

LiSe

 

[dobro p]

To me it is very much like "do I need a raincoat" (question, first hex) in the context of "well, this is the weather" (second).

So we need a term which encompasses all of yours and mine and all the others.

LiSe

Well, as far as I'm concerned, you and I have identified the difference that divides this board and makes it so very difficult for people intimately acquainted with the Yi to come to anything like agreement about what it means in itself or when used for a consultation. And that difference is this: we can't find the all-encompassing term you're asking about and looking for when you think the second hexagram is the immediate answer to the question. I have *always* taken the first hexagram as the immediate answer to the question.

Look, if we can't even agree on *that*, then my disgust/disappointment with the lack of agreement and understanding on this board is a pretty much appropriate response. For someone like me who wants understanding between people, I mean.

 

[Trojina]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, you and I have identified the difference that divides this board and makes it so very difficult for people intimately acquainted with the Yi to come to anything like agreement about what it means in itself or when used for a consultation. And that difference is this: we can't find the all-encompassing term you're asking about and looking for when you think the second hexagram is the immediate answer to the question. I have *always* taken the first hexagram as the immediate answer to the question.

Look, if we can't even agree on *that*, then my disgust/disappointment with the lack of agreement and understanding on this board is a pretty much appropriate response. For someone like me who wants understanding between people, I mean.

The day we all agree on the right meaning of any answer/term/etc etc is the day the Yi Jing and this board will be as dead as a dodo. Why anyone wants or even thinks possible to have a unified view of the Yi Jing and related terms etc etc is totally beyond me. What disgusts you Dobro, seems the breath of life to me, its what keeps me reading here. I hope I never come to find the monochrome understanding of the Yi here that you seem to think so desirable.

Trying to fix how the 'second' hexagram must be read seems crazy to me (and I'm still pretty much in favour of 'relating' as the best word for me since both hexs relate in the answer) an insistence on the Yi adopting a short view linear approach to time - why should it ? Because its convenient for you ? Because you want things nice and tidy and 'wrapped up' - more like choked to death as far as I'm concerned. What is the context or the way things look to you subjectively may also contain the future and my experience is that reading it fluidly, using intuition is pretty accurate. I think you confuse accuracy with fixity and that is a mistake.

I'm really blown away by your use of the word 'disgust' here ? Many things are disgusting, people discussing how they apply the 'second' hexagram is hardly one of them, is it

If you want understanding between people why do you think this can be achieved through limiting possibilities and narrowing meanings down to how you see things.

 

[Sparhawk]

Look, if we can't even agree on *that*, then my disgust/disappointment with the lack of agreement and understanding on this board is a pretty much appropriate response. For someone like me who wants understanding between people, I mean.

Well, you may feel that way but, IMO, "disgust" is waaaay too much of a big word and feeling for what may be happening here. I'm not even "disappointed" at my disagreements with anybody in the forum. Is all part of being human and each having their own brains. For all of it, I always find a lot of value in all of the opinions posted here, including the ones that are 180 degrees from mine.

People tend to take themselves too seriously and spend lots of "disappointing" energy on things that have no immediate weight or consequence.

Cheers,

 

[getojack]

Ferphuxache, Dobro, lighten up.

Am I missing something? Since when is diversity of opinions a no-no?
Who said everyone has to agree on one definition... one viewpoint... one truth?
Yo Dobro, if you really want understanding between people, why don't you try being more open to the viewpoints of others... maybe you'll learn something.

 

[getojack]

BTW, I kinda like the term someone posted on this board for that other hexagram... the "second hexagon".

 

[dobro p]

To my critics: if you'd take the time to enquire about the disgust and disappointment I'm feeling instead of criticizing me for what I said, you might learn something useful.

Here's an analogy, taken from the world of music. To be able to play a piece of music with somebody else, you have to be in the same key and playing at the same tempo and you have to switch chords at the same time. If you can't manage that, the song goes off the rails. It's immediately evident when that happens, and when it does, the musicians usually stop playing (if it's not a performance), and compare notes so that everybody knows where and why it went wrong. Then they go anna one anna two anna... and they try it again. That's why music is so beautiful when it works, cuz everyone's not only on the same page, but they're *very* together and listening to each other and the level of understanding is pretty high. That's my ideal, I suppose.

Here's another analogy, closer perhaps to the situation on this board that I'm talking about. When two people are having a disagreement and emotion comes into it, there are all sorts of ways to deal with it, but one of the things that can help after the feelings have calmed down a bit is to compare notes and find out what the other person was trying to say and what they were feeling, and to let them know what you were trying to say and how you were feeling. Now *that* is understanding, and it's hard to arrive at in my experience, but worth the effort.

Here's a final analogy: the reason we can exchange messages on this board is because we all understand the same language. Understanding requires that you both understand a common language.

My feeling about what happens here is that there's often not enough common ground in the Yi language we speak here for communication to be really useful and satisfying.

And that's why I despair here sometimes, cuz I feel that understanding is impossible if we're not agreed on at least a few of the basic concepts or methods. Well, that's an exaggeration, cuz we do agree on a couple of things, for instance: we agree there are 64 hexagrams; we agree pretty much on how to toss the coins and build a hexagram; we agree (I think) that a hexagram can apply to a vast variety of situations. So, yeah, we agree about some things. But it seems to me that if we can't even agree on the *role* of the primary hexagram, that we don't stand a chance of being on the same page when we talk about what a hexagram means, or when we compare notes when interpreting a consultation.

And if I'm upset, that's my problem. And if I share that distress with you, you're free to respond to it any way you like. And if we find some common ground and understanding, that's great. And if we don't, that's sad.

 

[Trojina]

The music analogy doesn't fit here. We are not a group gathering together to produce a work upon which we all agree.

This is the 'divination/discussion area. Discussion does generally involve people having varying opinions, thats the whole point of it. If you are disapointed in the fact that people with varying ideas discuss in the discussion area of this board then I agree with you, that is sad.

 

[dobro p]

The music analogy doesn't work here. We are not a group gathering together to produce a piece of art.

This is the 'divination/discussion area. Discussion does generally involve people having varying opinions, thats the whole point of it. If you are disapointed in the fact that people with varying ideas discuss in the discussion area of this board then I agree with you, that is sad.

I'm not disappointed with the variety of views here - that's the richness and play of this place, and a lot of the fun of it for me. What I'm disappointed about is that the agreed-upon common ground is too small, in my opinion, for really useful exchange on important issues to take place.

 

[bruce_g]

Somewhere between ambiguity and crystallization, I think we can all pretty much agree. I’m sure that if Brad were to be asked for an interpretation of the “relating” Gua, he could handle it. So happens this thread is specifically about “The Relating Hexagram”, so he offered some literate insight. Not everyone has to get in rank with it, but it could make a difference to some.

Same with the rest of the Yi, and every other ancient work. There are literalists and liberalists, and those who can dance in-between, like 1.4.

 

[dobro p]

I'm pretty cool with any term you want to attach to the relating/other/second/tendential hexagram.

But what's its role relative to the main hexagram? What's the role of the main hexagram relative to the the 'second hexagon'? I think a person can make that decision for themself based on their understanding and needs. But it gets really confusing when we exchange ideas on this site and we're not even on the same page.

I think what I'm going to do with this is what I do with these sorts of situations all the time. I'll look for understanding (understanding, not agreement) with people when I explore issues with them, so I know where they're coming from.

 

[bruce_g]

I

I think what I'm going to do with this is what I do with these sorts of situations all the time. I'll look for understanding (understanding, not agreement) with people when I explore issues with them, so I know where they're coming from.

I think most of us tend to be more free and easy with those we're acquainted and comfortable with, because, as you've said, we understand where they're coming from, and they, us. Personally, I find it hard to connect with some on anything more than a pragmatic level, because their ideas are fixed, as though in steel or rock. There can be no real discussion, so I don't try to discuss with them. But that's fine too. It's not my job to change anyone but me.

 

[getojack]

Taking a cue from sparhawk... the M-W dictionary definition of "interpret" is

Main Entry: in·ter·pret
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French interpreter, from Latin interpretari,
from interpret-, interpres agent, negotiator, interpreter
transitive verb
1 : to explain or tell the meaning of : present in understandable terms <interpret dreams> <needed help interpreting the results>
2 : to conceive in the light of individual belief, judgment, or circumstance : CONSTRUE <interpret a contract>
3 : to represent by means of art : bring to realization by performance or direction <interprets a role>

Which kind of interpretation would you like?

 

[Trojina]

I'm pretty cool with any term you want to attach to the relating/other/second/tendential hexagram.

But what's its role relative to the main hexagram? What's the role of the main hexagram relative to the the 'second hexagon'? I think a person can make that decision for themself based on their understanding and needs. But it gets really confusing when we exchange ideas on this site and we're not even on the same page.

I think what I'm going to do with this is what I do with these sorts of situations all the time. I'll look for understanding (understanding, not agreement) with people when I explore issues with them, so I know where they're coming from.

Its not at all clear about what you mean about being on the same page ? This is just a vague term, what are you talking about ? And who do you think it gets 'confusing' for, for you ? Seemed to me we were on the same page, at least I could follow the ideas expressed by each poster. And a number of people did agree the second hexagran could both be seen as a context and a future development.

I was going to ask you what you thought the solution was to your perception of this dissent, of people not 'being on the same page'. But there is of course no solution short of the forum adopting a 'line' from which dissenters will not be tolerated. So you come up with your own solution of trying to figure out where others are coming from - er yes exactly I thought thats what we all were doing anyway.

 

[dobro p]

Its not at all clear about what you mean about being on the same page ? This is just a vague term, what are you talking about ?

It's not a vague term; it's used all the time by English speakers. It means that you both understand enough of what the other person is saying to actually communicate meaningfully. Because when people *think* they understand each other (but don't really), very often mistakes get made.

And who do you think it gets 'confusing' for, for you?

For me sometimes, yes. And for the other person too. For instance, look at what you said here:

And a number of people did agree the second hexagran could both be seen as a context and a future development

See, if the second hexagram can be seen as either a context or a future development, that means it's really useful to know which one the person sees it as so that you know what they're talking about. Otherwise it can get confusing.

But there is of course no solution short of the forum adopting a 'line' from which dissenters will not be tolerated.

Rubbish. I'm looking for common ground, and if the only alternative you see is intolerance, it says more about you than about me, I think.

 

[lindsay]

Without getting into the personal stuff here, all I can say is that the resulting hexagram is the future hexagram for 100 out of 100 Chinese interpreters. All the rest is Western imagination.

Lindsay

 

[bruce_g]

I heard it was 99 out of 100. Some wacky Chinese guy had an imagination.

 

[dobro p]

Without getting into the personal stuff here, all I can say is that the resulting hexagram is the future hexagram for 100 out of 100 Chinese interpreters. All the rest is Western imagination.

Lindsay

Cool. So, are you saying that anybody who ascribes to a view other than those 100 Chinese guys is wrong? And are you willing to take the heat for saying so?

 

[Trojina]

Cool. So, are you saying that anybody who ascribes to a view other than those 100 Chinese guys is wrong? And are you willing to take the heat for saying so?

You miss the point. You see if some people are of the view that the relating hexagram only indicates the future then this still does not solve your problem. It won't solve your problem because there will still be those who see it another way, hence there will still be differing opinions, or different 'imaginings' as some may say. But we seem to have got sidetracked from discussing how the relating hex is viewed and onto your desire for conformity.

You are still unable to say how you envisage this board reaching a unified consensus on the issue. I said I could see no way to do that other than imposing a 'line' and you said that was 'rubbish'. Okay then how do you propose to get that consensus ? You haven't said as yet how ?

(BTW I know what 'on the same page' is supposed to mean, only here it has become a bit of a joke, 'management speak', so to speak that is too vague and pretentious to mean anything at all. )

There isn't anything much confusing about having some flexibilty about the second hexagram as far as i can see. When people answer queries here they generally state how they are seeing the resultant hex.

I also don't quite get where these '100% of Chinese interpreters come from' ? I thought there was not much interest in the Yi in China at present, and that which there was it was used very much as fortune telling. Wouldn't they think most of our interpretations were imaginative nonsense ? Therefore to hold their view up as some kind of impregnable authority seems doubtful here - unless by these 'Chinese interpreters' something else was meant ? Lise translates Chinese she does not view the relating hex this way I don't think.

Anyway good luck with your quest for universal consensus here on the issue of relating/tendential/resultant hexagrams and everything else. If all goes well there should be nothing left to say by July

 

[hilary]

Ah, meta-discussion, always endless fun. (Does that count as meta-meta-discussion?) I don't think Lindsay mentioned impregnable authority, I think he was just stirring the pot.

I've found the role of the second hexagram varies a whole lot according to the logic of the 'sentence' it makes with the first one, along with the nature of the question. 'Relating' seems, in practice, to be the umbrella concept that works best. And isn't it odd how infrequently differences on something as basic as this actually cause misunderstandings round here?

 

[getojack]

I see time less as a clear, straight line and more as an amorphous blob.
The first hexagon is the center of the blob and the second hexagon is the periphery of the blob. Since the time blob is always changing and adapting, what is now the blob's center (now, or the first hexagon) periodically moves to the periphery and the periphery (potential, or second hexagon) moves to the center. I hope against hope that some imaginative Western physicist discovers this blob-like nature of time in the near future, so that we can finally reach consensus on the nature of the first and second hexagons.