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The sage according to carol k. anthony

sliponshoe

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i've been reading carol's guide to the i-ching and she always mentions the sage as a guide working for us, for ex. that we must not try to force things but let the yi do the work for us. what exactly does she mean by that? is the yi some sort of god who helps us achieve our goals? can we pray to the yi?
 

hitchhiker

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I think I see the Yi as a manifestation of our unconscious, both individual and collective, but I think you'll get better answers from the more experienced people on this forum.

Best,
hh
 
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peace

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I believe she means the Sage is whatever is inside us that is our highest and most trustworthy self. If you have basic trust (in yourself and the universe), then you don't have to force anything or play manipulative games because you know that things will work out the way they are supposed to. That doesn't mean you sit back like a zombie - it means that you know when to act and when to stay still. You know what's real and what's illusion.

To me, it's trust in yourself when you are centered and truthful and willing to see reality.

Rosalie
 
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bruce

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It?s a big question. Too big for just one answer, me thinks. It depends how an individual sees themselves in relation to.. whatever we wish to call it. The common western perspective is to separate God (collective unconscious, etc) from our individually perceived self; so there is God over there, or guides swimming in the ether realm, itching to answer all our silly questions. Or maybe one god assigned exclusively to teaching the Yi, another for Tarot, another for Runes, etc. The Romans and Greeks were onto this psychology. The gods have their thing going on and we are the pawns, the means to their ends. And the devoted mortals could win favors, often with gifts of insight.

My own frail view of it is:
An interactive energy mass, electrically charged and almost entirely self perpetuating. Inertia slows it down, otherwise I imagine it would exist forever, forever expanding. But I do think the world ends, eventually; returns, so to speak.

Individualism pulls away from the mass, seeking to become its own entity. Being born, as in hex. 3, exhibits this initial chaos, trying to both separate and then unite. My exchange with Yi is an honest effort to reunite with the Great Way of the mass through synchronization. The mass cooperates; as it is always in a state of cooperation. The tricky part is that the ?hero? must somehow retain his individuality, while at the same time uniting with the Great Way of the mass. It?s the classic Prom?theus myth. And like Prom?theus, our guts are perpetually eaten out because of it. Thank the gods for Herakles!
 

dobro p

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The Yi's not the book, it's more the intelligence that comes through by way of consulting the book. I think it's higher mind, that mind that we can't access ordinarily because of all the obstacles generated by our ego.

The 'sage' refers, I believe, to the person who *has* overcome those obstacles and whose consciousness has stabilized in higher mind. A person, who by contrast to us, is much more integrated and selfless.
 

jte

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Slip, you'll get a wide variety of opinions and precious few hard facts to back them up on questions like that.

I've personally come to the conclusion that it is some sort of non-human intelligence that we contact through the medium of the book. I have reasons for believing this, but I'd hardly be able to prove it scientifically. And I respect that others have other views, a few of which you've seen above.

Frankly, I'd have a difficult time trusting anyone who claimed to "know" the answer to questions like that with certainty. Unless there's actual evidence, to me that would seem more like the person is following or trying to build a dogma around the Yi. And in my view, it's inherently a mystery, for a variety of reasons.

If you're experiencing things that are difficult to explain like synchronicity/omens, recurring meaningful dreams, or "psychic experiences", you might consider taking a look at the Shuo Kua and Ta Chuan appendices to the I Ching. They say some interesting things that should leave you with food for thought (though again no hard answers) and might help you formulate your own ideas.

- Jeff
 
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bruce

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Jeff, I so agree with what you've said. From time to time I've tried to receive a concrete answer from Yi on these things, and like a particle of dust, all my constructs were blown into outer space. I believe the necessity is to grasp the openness of 64.

 

jte

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:)

Hehe, wish I did know, sort of... Guess I would be the Sage or a superhuman intelligence or something like that then, though, and I'm not...

Oh well, my current existence is "down here", not "up there", so c'est la vie. There's something to be said for living "down here" too. After all, I get to enjoy ocean swims, hot bowls of soup, looking into my child's eyes, and other seemingly mundane pleasures... Shouldn't take them for granted, though. After all, while there's a truly mind-bogglingly enormous universe out there, it's mostly empty space.

- Jeff
 
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bruce

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Once there was a holy man named Narada, whose great learning impressed the gods, even Vishnu who sleeps on a bed of cobras above the dark lake of infinity and whose very own dream is the universe.

One day Vishnu came to Narada and offered him a single wish; Narada answered that he would like to understand Maya, the illusion of the worlds dreamed by Vishnu. "Very well" said the god. "Let's go for a walk."

So Vishnu and Narada began a trek that would take them across the whole of Hindustan: through the teeming streets of Calcutta, along the banks of the holy Ganges, into the stifling forests that belonged to the Bengal tiger, and out across the plains of Uttar Pradesh, which grew hotter and hotter until the grass disappeared and their feet trod the burning desert of Rajasthan.

In the desert, Vishnu beckoned Narada to him: "My son, I am thirsty. There is an oasis around this dune. Please go and fetch me some water." So Narada went. He found the oasis, where spring water greened the fields of a small village. Seeking permission to draw from the well, he knocked on the door of the first hut. A young woman answered, and at the moment that Narada's eyes met hers he forgot his mission, forgot everything from before.

Narada stayed and married the beautiful young woman. They had two children. He was very happy, coaxing grain from the soil, working beside his loving wife and watching his children grow.

Twelve years went by, and one day an unusually dark storm rolled in from the north. Thunder boomed and rain came down in sheets. Narada tried to gather his family in his arms but the flood hit too quickly and plunged them into an inky swirl that separated them all. In a frenzy, he dove and thrashed and cried the names of his wife and children, but in the dark swirling water he could grasp nothing. Exhausted and heartbroken, he gave in to the raging current and the water swept him away.

Narada awoke face down in the sand under the blazing sun. He heard a voice: "My son, where is the drink you promised me? It's been half an hour." Narada looked into Vishnu's face. After a moment the god said, "Now you understand my dream."
 

jte

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Hmmm. Well thanks, Bruce for posting that, although the story seems to go a little over my head in a way - I'm not quite sure what it tries to explain about Vishnu's dream/the nature of reality. If you've thought about what it means and have some ideas, I'd be interested in hearing them.

- Jeff
 
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bruce

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Hi Jeff,

How to explain the Hindu pantheon in 307 words or less?


Just as each hexagram image represents a principle or phenomenon, so it is with the gods of Hinduism. The idea of dreaming Vishnu is that, this existence which we consider to be real is but the imagining or dreams of God. If you place this beside Jung?s idea of Collective Unconscious you can draw similarities.

Where do our dreams come from? Our subconscious mind; and sometimes an even greater conscious emerges with archetypal symbols from the Collective Unconscious Mind, or mind of God, or, if you will, dreams of Vishnu.

The idea is that, even our waking life is made of what Campbell referred to as ?mind stuff?. The only difference is that our waking consciousness presents a more dense, heavy, gross, material form. Just as our dreams appear to us from our subconscious, so this material appearance manifests from, one could say, God?s subconscious. So as we dream our dreams, God dreams us. As an aside, the hexagram this reminds me of is 16.

Shiva isn?t the dreamer but the dancer. In order for God?s dream to manifest there must exist duality and separation. This god I have named Ti Ming (timing), because it is he who delineates measure and time. Shiva, to me, is hex. 60. And if I were to try to assign a name to the god who makes Yi synchronistic, it would be Ti Ming or Shiva.

Kalae is death. It is the horrible idea that life requires consuming life to live. She is a mother eating her own children. To me she is hex. 30.

These all exist as ideas, though likely only the Brahmin understands this. For others, a plastic Jesus or Buddha does just as well. That?s the beauty of it. Every cast is equal. All the dreams of Vishnu.
 
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bruce

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Jeff, I take it the explanation wasn't helpful?

I?m interested in your thoughts on this, or just how this all sits with you.
 

sliponshoe

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thanks for your input, guys. one more question re carol: she also asks the yi yes/no questions assuming that 9 means "yes yes yes" and 6 "no no no" to determine if she's understood the answer ("did i understand your answer, yi?") or whether the answer is referring to her or somebody else's behaviour when she asks about another person. what's your experience?
 
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peace

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I've never read that she says that?
Where did you get that from? It sounds a little bizarre!

Rosalie
 

matt

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"I think I see the Yi as a manifestation of our unconscious, both individual and collective, but I think you'll get better answers from the more experienced people on this forum. "

Hitchhiker, your statement was brimming with experience
 

dobro p

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"thanks for your input, guys. one more question re carol: she also asks the yi yes/no questions assuming that 9 means "yes yes yes" and 6 "no no no" to determine if she's understood the answer ("did i understand your answer, yi?") or whether the answer is referring to her or somebody else's behaviour when she asks about another person. what's your experience?"

It sounds like a system that works. As long as you define what the rules of the consultation are to both yourself and the Yi, it'll work.

However, it's also my experience that the Yi works a *lot* better if you're operating on a global level, and that it 'doesn't like' yes/no questions. There's something about yes/no questions that really does a disservice to the essential unity of all things. It's like the universe is saying: "Everything is one; everything is connected to everything else," and you're saying: "Yes, but I want to break it all down into ego-sized easily-conceived chunks via this yes/no question approach so that I can control outcomes to my liking."
 

jte

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"Jeff, I take it the explanation wasn't helpful?"
No, no - I just got somewhat overbooked in real(?) life :) and didn't come back to read for a day or two. Sorry!

My take on it. Well, it's certainly an interesting cosmology. I guess I couldn't say I agree with it, but I respect it for what it is. In my case, I'm a fence-sitter on most such questions until I see a good reason to believe something specific. I do believe in a God that created the universe, but whether that creation is God's dream(s) or something else - well, I have no view on that.

I *do* believe strongly that God is present and aware of what happens in the world, although normally very quietly and unobtrusively - "backgrounded" as it were.

"Where do our dreams come from?..."

A good question. I've had some dreams where I experienced contact with God. Whether they were just dreams or whether they were actual contact, well, I don't know. I suppose it's possible they were.

I know that Val in particular on this board had dreams that she believed was the consciousness(es) behind the Yi communicating with her. And of course, many people report many strange dreams such as prophetic ones, etc. And I think Gene on this board had suggested that at the unconscious level we're (in some mysterious way) connected with God. While Gene had a lot of views I didn't agree with, that sounded at least plausible to me.

"That?s the beauty of it. Every cast is equal. All the dreams of Vishnu."

There is indeed a certain magnanimous beauty to that idea. In my case, I believe in drawing a distinction between good and evil and trying to increase good and curb evil. My spirituality is primarily founded on the Yi and I see this in the Yi's message (but being well aware that is just my interpretation, not *the* interpretation :). Certainly both good and evil take their turn in the world, and, I believe, actually create and destroy each other over time. Are they (and all things) equal before God? If I could honestly say I knew for sure, I'd be happy to tell ya ;-) .

- Jeff
 
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bruce

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Hi Jeff,

How dare real life interfere with your Clarity time!

That's pretty much my take on it too. To me, it's a beautiful vision of how it may well be, but the dream aspect is pretty abstract. I found it interesting that, according to Campbell, caste is not determined by wealth but by measure of spiritual and philosophical understanding. What doesn't sit right with me about it is that it is through family lineage which this is determined. But then, life was not as complicated then as now - a shoe maker was a Shoeman, a baker was a Bakerman, etc. That type of traditional lineage seldom finds a place in contemporary society.

I find ancient Hinduism, their gods, goddesses and over-all symbolism fascinating. There is succinct reasoning behind every facet. And unlike many other religions, it always leaves you wondering, and never in a state of completion or knowing in literal terms how it is.

My own belief about Jesus is, he knew that the majority of people needed something tangible to hold onto, and so he became the red rock.
 

sliponshoe

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"'ve never read that she says that?
Where did you get that from? It sounds a little bizarre!

Rosalie"

it's an appendix to the latest edition of her guide to the i-ching. i don't know if it was included in earlier editions.
 
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peace

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Hi Sliponshoe:

I hope you don't think I meant you were bizarre for saying that!

It just goes against my fantasy about Carol Anthony and her work. Anyway, I still find her work one of my first choices in interpretation.

I think the key is that we all keep searching and reading and learning! I also start with the broad question and boil it down. I've never found yes/no particularly useful. In the end, we have to put the whole picture together. It's never a simple thing.

Rosalie
 
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rosada

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I concieve of God as Time. Consider what we say about Time - "Eternal", "Timing is Everything", "All things come in Time", "Time reveals everything." "The Great Distroyer" etc. - it's as if we are discribing God.

Bruce's story of Vishnu reminds me of a time a friend of mind was in trouble. I tried everything but nothing i could do was any help. At last I prayed - and i woke up! This was long ago, so long ago I have forgotten the details of the dream, what the "trouble" was, even who the friend was, but I'll never forget suddenly waking up and realizing the whole episode had been a dream. I also remember that after the relief of discovering i had just been dreaming, I realized I felt a little sad, I wanted to go back into my dream and reassure my friend that we were dreaming...Perhaps that is why the Great Souls choose to reincarnate? To come back into the dream to reassure us we too can wake up?
 

dobro p

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"I concieve of God as Time."

God is beyond time, according to most of the people who seem to know what they're talking about. Time is a concept which is limited to ego-based perception. It's an illusion. I'm not sure where the deification of time came into Yi studies, but it's a real detour, I think - way off base.
 

void

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Do you know what Dobro I don't actually believe at base that any one of us know any more about God than any other one of us. I have to laugh at your statement "God is beyond time, according to most of the people who seem to know what they are talking about"
Sounds like you think there are people who know what Gods about and people who don't. Well I reckon Rosada knows as much about God as any other living being.



I'm so suspicious of those who point out 'ego based perceptions' in others, who the **** do they think they are. This was always my problem with Carol Anthony who I see as standing on her own podium to pronounce her own extremely judgmental views and pass it off as the Yi, taking a position, acting like she 'knows' from her exalted spot who is acting from an ego base and who is not. Sorry Rosalie I know you are her most ardent fan, I seem to have an ego based objection to her ego, lol.

Whats the use Dobro pointing out time is an illusion ? So what ? Its an illusion every one of us live in. If I'm late to work tomorrow I can't see telling my boss its his ego problem cos times an illusion. If we go that direction my arms and legs are an illusion, infact I'm an illusion and so that tree over there. Thing is its an illusion we better take seriously I think because it appears to have consequence - it also happens to be where we current incarnates find ourselves now - and now is all there is so if Rosada says God is time its as valid as saying God is anything, after all there isn't anything God is not is there, even ego based projections are God playing silly beggars. So for you to tell Rosada God is not time is really quite funny, because theres nothing God is not is there.
 

void

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I think I'm saying Dobro you imply there is a place where God is not ? Well its her dream you know she does have a place in every single part of it.
 

void

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And as I'm on a rant roll its just **** to think bad things can only happen as a result of karma from a previous life, and to not get angry for that reason is ****. What a retrograde and harmful belief if you extend it to others ! I find it quite noxious for example that someone might think a starving child was like that because of past life transgression ! No ! more like current life greed of the world its come into !
 

void

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Ooops sorry this is not the reincarnation thread - misplaced rant.
 
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peace

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Void -

All the threads are the same


I too hate this new age (starts with an "s", ends with a "t".
I believe things happen to people - and it's how we deal with them that is and grows our character.
If someone is victimized - there's the victim's stuff and the perpetrator's stuff and they intersected.
Could it have been avoided if the victim crossed the street and buttoned her collar till it pinched her throat - as not to look like a victim or seductress - who knows.
No one knows what goes on in another's mind and it is totally arrogant - IMHO to blame the victim - and cruel and most likely WRONG.

Which gets me to Carol Anthony.
Void - the reason I really, really like what she says is because I get to think about how much I get in my own way. I get to remind myself that just because I want something doesn't mean I have to get it - and she reminds me of all the ways I bull...* myself in self-righteousness under the guise of pride, anger, superiority, etc.
I couldn't care less about who she is or what she stands for - or who she judges.
I probably use her as "crutch" to remind myself to go to a deeper level with the readings. I can be very judgemental - especially when I feel pissed off, wronged and want something real bad.

Rosada - I've heard that space and time are our human limitations to make some sense of the world because we can't get our "minds" around the whole picture. I know I have a warped sense of time. Everything takes too long as far as I'm concerned and I always think things will take shorter than they do.

I think the real deal is that everyone is different, sees things differently and that's the way it is. There is truth - but people interpret things based on their own filters. I don't even think ego-based projections are wrong - just something we can bump against when dealing with other people to help us learn and take the projections back and tell the truth about ourselves and maybe see the world a little differently and get along with others a little better.

Talk about rant
 
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bruce

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If time is an illusion, what is it that happens between a tree sprout and a fully grown tree? What makes seasons? And, if humans never existed, wouldn?t these things still be? After all, they existed long before our species has, and when primitive man came onto the scene, he marked off the days on stone walls, based on the sun?s rising and setting. Isn?t that evidence of time as more than illusion? If we are born into this earthly existence out of our own illusion, that leaves two possibilities. 1) We manifest the entire universe from our own illusion 2) All life forms suffer the same illusions as humans do, including sand and rock, or they wouldn?t exist either on this illusionary planet in this illusionary universe. So, did we make the whole universe up? I don?t think so.

imo, humans are just animals who think too much.
 

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