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The Yi vs. Christianity... or not?

cal val

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Hi there...

Candid did something very interesting in the 1.5 thread that I've seen happen here from time to time, and that is he related something from the Bible to an aspect of hexagram 1. He said: I see the dragon much as John saw Jesus. He's also quoted Scripture that he felt correlated to lines in the Yi. So have others.

I believe that much of the wisdom in the Bible parallels or correlates to much of the Wisdom in the I Ching. Does anyone have any examples of such parallels and correlations to share in this thread? Links to other threads where they already exist are great too.

Thanks!

Love,

Val
 

chrislofting

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the roots of christianity are found in judaism and there are strong correlations of IC with qabalah stuff.

qabalah material promoted in the 11th century AD seems to have had its roots in arabic material - the difference being the QBL focused on 10s, the arabic stuff on 8s....

Chris.
 

cal val

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What if I were to try to discuss the Yi with Christians who are compelled to discuss Christianity with me? What if I were to try to explain it to them in a way they would find no contradiction between the Yi and Christianity... a way they would find palatable... a way that we could communicate our beliefs in peace?

Love,

Val
 
C

candid

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Hi Val,

I believe Yi can describe virtually any sequence of the human condition. One can read most anything anywhere and apply a hexagram and its lines. The Bible is no different, and because its rich in symbolism, also reflecting the human condition, its easy to make parallels with Yi.

The difference is that Yi is more fluid and can flex to fit into a Biblical scenario more easily than in reverse. An exception is Proverbs. In fact, now you?ve made me curious enough to consider looking only at Proverbs to apply various Yi correlations. I might just work on that this weekend for the fun of it.

Rather than use New Testament scripture, which also works well, here are a few examples from the Hebrew Bible:

Hex #3
Gen. 1.1 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Hex #4
Exodus 1.1 Now these [are] the names of the children of Israel, which came into Egypt; every man and his household came with Jacob.

Hex #7
Deu 1:15 So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes.

Hex #21
Jos 1.8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Hex #24
Ecc 1.6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

Hex #41
Lev. 1.2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, [even] of the herd, and of the flock.

Hex #42
Pro 1.5 A wise [man] will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Hex #55
Job 1.3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.

Hex #60
Num 1.2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of [their] names, every male by their polls;

C
 
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candid

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Val,

In regard to your second question, let me repeat what I said earlier:

The difference is that Yi is more fluid and can flex to fit into a Biblical scenario more easily than in reverse.

Applying this to a meaningful discourse with Christian believers (as apposed to mere formalists), means that you, as a representative of Yi, must also be more fluid and flex into their more rigid doctrinal framework.

But I hope you?re not counting on them hearing or understanding your point of view. However, through 61, you may be able to influence them from the inside out.

C
 

chrislofting

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61 is part of the 'archetypal' set of qualities, the purest forms that translate as constants all the way from dodecagrams to trigrams, so just focus on those for starters:

01 - heaven - pure yang (light, male)
34 - lake
61 - fire
19 - thunder
33 - wind
62 - water
20 - mountain
02 - earth - pure yin (darkness, female)

IOW all of these qualities will be reflected in all concepts as 'obvious' qualities and so 'universals'.

61 as such reflects the soft element beneath the hard exterior, the samness behind the differences.
(as fire moves outwards so all within its bounds are turned to ash - sameness. That ash is also a form of fertiliser and so the association with guidance and setting of directions, development of an ideology, something to 'fight' for, as the judge fights for a misjustice etc etc

62 reflects the use of exaggerating traditions to maintain loyalty to the collective in general - even if past the best-before date! ;-)

Chris.
 

cal val

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Candid...

Very interesting point about being flexible where belief is concerned. When I came to this town, a devout atheist Jew, I was beside myself as to how to communicate with these people when it was all about Jesus.

But after my dreams of the men in grey everything changed. I didn't care how an individual got there... I just knew he was in the same space as I and that space was the most important consideration... not the "language" or dogma we used to conceive or convey it. A pair of Jehovah's Witnesses came to visit soon after I began to understand my dreams, and, just like all other encounters with Witnesses, I explained to them I wasn't Christian, and, so unlike any other time, I welcomed them to a discussion and to share with me their views and feelings because we were... in the end... talking about the same thing. We passed the most delightful hour together, and they left as uplifted as they left me. Nothing changed in my views and nothing changed in theirs, but we were able to communicate beyond our differences to our "sameness."

Since then it's been natural for me to respond with a sincere smile when someone says to me, "Have a bless-ed day," or to say quite sincerely "I hear you" when someone talks of their love for Jesus. But in all this, I don't ever communicate my feelings about this place we share... or how I get there, and I would just like to better understand their language in order that I might.

Thank you.

Here's the image you asked me to post for you.



Love,

Val
 
C

candid

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Val,

Thanks for posting one of my favorite images of power. As you may know its from LiSe's website.

I'm in complete harmony with your views on these things.

Interesting that you mentioned two languages which say the same truth. I almost knee-jerked a response to Chris saying the same thing about his expansion of 61. Two languages saying the same in spirit.

I'd be happy to work on correlations with the New Testament rather than with Proverbs. Its just that the words attributed to Jesus have less historical evidence of authenticity than those of the Hebrew Bible. If someone can get around that and have it not be an obstruction, perhaps I'll work on that instead of Proverbs. Especially if you?ll find it helpful in bridging communication with Christians.

C
 

wanderer

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Is it not the nature of wisdom to cover the same matters. After all we are each confronted with basically the same dillema, In exploration and explanation, each culture is always going to have much in common and their spiritual works will also.
 

cal val

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Candid...

Your understanding of Proverbs sounds wounderful. Something both Jew and Christian can relate to.

I'd love to hear your parallels and correlations.

Thank you!

Love,

Val
 
C

candid

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Val,

Beginning research on this is daunting. There's just so much that correlates. For example, Revelation is actually the revelation of Christ. This means that most of the entire book of Revelations can be seen as Jesus' own words. Being that its a book consisting almost entirely of metaphor, it can be gone through by chapter and verse, giving Yi reference to each and every symbol. Talk about a brain drain.

Perhaps if I limit the view to the Christian witnessing aspect of the New Testament it might be more relevant? Or is there any particular aspect of the doctrine you feel you would benefit from mostly, concerning comparative notes?

C
 
C

candid

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Val,

chuckles.. ok, I'll pray about it and see what happens.

wink
 
C

candid

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Here?s a quick comparison with Proverbs 1.1-1.10. This isn?t carefully articulated, and its certainly not a study of Proverbs. Its just to demonstrate the common association.


Proverbs Chapter 1

1:1 THE PROVERBS of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
Yi 4.2 The son is capable of taking charge of the household.

1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to comprehend the words of understanding;
Yi 16.2 To know the seeds, that's divine indeed.

1:3 To receive the discipline of wisdom, justice, and right, and equity;
Yi 34 When we understand this point - namely, that greatness and justice must be indissolubly united - we understand the true meaning of all that happens in heaven and on earth.

1:4 To give prudence to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion;
Yi 62 If a man occupies a position of authority for which he's by nature really inadequate, extraordinary prudence is necessary.

1:5 That the wise man may hear, and increase in learning, and the man of understanding may attain unto wise counsels;
Yi 4.5 For the man devoid of arrogance who subordinated himself to his teacher will certainly be helped.

1:6 To understand a proverb, and a figure; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
Yi 52 Therefore he has that true peace of mind which is needed for understanding the great laws of the universe and for acting in harmony with them.

1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; but the foolish despise wisdom and discipline.
Yi 51 The superior man is always filled with reverence at the manifestation of God; he sets his life in order and searches his heart, lest it harbor any secret opposition to the will of God.

1:8 Hear, my son, the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the teaching of thy mother;
Yi 37 The foundation of the family is the relationship between husband and wife. (mother/father)

1:9 For they shall (mother/father) be a chaplet of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.
Yi 37 The loving reverence of the son is then carried over to the prince in the form of faithfulness to duty.

1:10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
Yi 58.6 Seductive joyousness

C
 

cal val

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Candid...

Wow... I'm feasting here... and feeling absolutely gluttonous.

Thank you!

Love,

Val
 

cal val

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Chris...

Thank you. You've given me some food for thought as well.

Love,

Val
 
C

candid

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Val,

Great! Glad it connects.

Yi generally states an ideal once. The Bible is redundant. A same Yi verse will work for many Bible verses for this reason.

Yi isn't fixed either, as is the Bible. For this reason I feel it falls to the student/follower of Yi to be fluid in dealings with those of a rigid path.

As an aside, I?d interpret Jesus? quote: ?I am the way, the truth, and the light.?
As: ?I am tao; truth and light.?
Certainly a symbol of the Great Man.

C
 

gene

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There are many many ways in which the two correlate. And yet, for the fundamentalist, they would not likely see it. So much has changed over the centuries and in the fourth and fifth centuries good portions of the new testament especially were altered or changed to support the views of the emerging Roman Catholic Church. It is hard to separate fact from fiction. In fact, on another level, it is hard to separate myth from reality. For that is where they both stand. Where the rubber meets the road. Was there ever a son of god that died for our sins? I doubt it, but the concept still applies. Each of us becomes a mini christ, (Christian) as we die to our lower selves and live by the principles of the higher self. As the higher self becomes more prevalent in our life, "The dragon appears in the field." And our life becomes more prominent, and we gain power, (over ourselves) as we live according the the principles of the superior man. As we gain access to the sage, (Yi) we become more like him. (Christ in you, the hope of glory.) As we search the depths of wisdom in the yi, we "go and sell everything we have to pay the price for the field in which we found the pearl of great price." We forsake "earthly treasures," and "lay up for ourselves treasures in heaven, wherein moth and rust doth not corrupt." We become like the "prodigal son," who woke up, and realized the error of his ways, and went back to his father. The same to a certain extent is true of "The wanderer." in hexagram 56.

Hexagram 61 in many ways is the hexagram of the heart. Of love. And in Biblical terminology we have, "but the greatest of all commandments is this, that ye love one another." And when we have love in our hearts for others, we become like the "crane calling in the shade." And those of like mind hear the call, even though they cannot see the crane.

This can go on forever, maybe someday I will write a book on this.

Gene
 

cal val

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Gene...

"... maybe someday I will write a book on this."

What a GREAT idea! I sincerely hope that someday comes very soon.

Thank you for all the examples. Helps in ways I can't explain.

Love,

Val
 
C

candid

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Correction -

That should read: I am the way, the truth, and the life. (not light)

I wonder if someone might shed more light on those three words (way, truth, life), in regard to original Chinese definitions and meanings?
 

gene

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In the opening of the new testament we have what are called the four gospels. In the opening of the old testament, we have what are called the five books of Moses. In eastern philosophical systems we have what is called the five elements. In the Western System we have the four elements. How the five books of Moses apply to the five elements I do not know. However, I do know the relationships between the four gospels and the four western elements. In the book of Matthew we have "Jesus" (really the Christ, in truth) described as a king. Matthew relates to the element of fire, and more specifically, fixed fire, Leo, Lion. Since Kings are royalty, their births are recorded to show their kingly line, and as such we have a geneology and a description of birth in Matthew. In Mark we have the depiction of Jesus as a servant. Here we have the element of earth, and more specifically, fixed earth, Taurus, Bull. Since in ancient times servants were considered to be of no import, there is no geneology of Jesus, and no mention of his birth. In Luke we have Jesus depicted as the son of man, and as a member of the human race, there is a geneology, and a narrative of his birth. Luke is the Aquarian gospel, Fixed Air, The son of man. In John, the attempt, (on a superficial level anyway) was to depict him as the Son of God. Since God has no beginning and no end, there is no mention of a geneology, nor is there any description of his birth. John is Scorpio, fixed water, the scorpion/eagle, and the Son of God.

Why are there four elements in the west, and five in the east? I don't know. I do see them as different symbologies to depict many of the same things. There is however, a fifth gospel, (actually many, but one very prominent one) The gospel of Thomas. This gospel is more esoteric than even John, and is very subtle. To me it relates to something even more mysterious than scorpio, the actual center. (Perhaps the galactic center?)

In the first two books of Moses we have genesis and exodus. This can be considered the "coming in and the going out." Here esoterically, is described in greater detail the story of the "prodigal son." In Genesis the human race "goes out into the earth." In Exodus the human race, as symbolized by the Hebrew nation, returns (out of Egypt) to the father. Abraham too, leaves his father, (his father dies) and goes out into a land not his own. His sons eventually go down to Egypt. Here we have the recurring cycles of involution and evolution. Spirit goes down into matter and in its imprisonment eventually finds a way out to return to the heavens, with no need for further reincarnation. There is a hint of this involution and evolution in hexagrams 63 and 64. For in 63 all is perfect, (heaven) but it cannot be maintained. (Hence the return of spirit back into a body, material form.) And in 64 return is made back to the realm of spirit. Hexagrams 3 through 62 describe the process of the birth back into material form. (hexagram 3), and 62, flying too high, because reincarnation is still a necessity. In hexagram 23 we once again have the descent, and in 24 the rising. Involution and evolution.

More later,
Gene
 

bradford_h

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Hi all-

Although I hate like hell to have Christian Cooties anywhere near the Yi,

Way is the familiar Dao4
Truth is Zhen1 (Mathews #297)
Life is Sheng1 (Mathews #5738)

b
 
Y

yellowblue

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A christian in wolf's clothing? Sacrilege all around....!!! Same cut of cloth, different design. These Christians and these wolves are from the same family. They trot a narrow path and can't see beyond the scent of blood in their nose, driven by fear and aggression to weed out what is beyond there scope.

The label "Christianity" applies to the wolves who can't see beyond their own self image (their perception of Christ). It's very unfortunate that their projection has caused one to be afraid of "Christian Cooties", since that is the epitomy of what Christ disdained.

Still, one abides in their own perception.

Sorry Brad. I just hate misperceptions and labeling and have a big mouth. I can see where you're coming from, and sympathize, even empathize with your labeling. You do understand that Christ has little to do with Christianity, don't you?

Deb
 

cal val

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"Christ has little to do with Christianity"

Exactly my point. Thank you Deb! He was one of the wise men... one of the brave men... and it was other men who took his wisdom and used it and did with it what they wished to meet their own needs. So I can talk about Jesus in the same breath with any of the other wise men who ever lived... without hesitation.

Love,

Val
 
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yellowblue

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Yes Val,

"It was other men who took his wisdom and used it and did with it what they wished to meet their own needs."... or a vast majority of them anyway, as it is with the teachings of all inspired men.

And although I hope that most Christians are sincere in their beliefs, as well as most Buddhists and Hindus, etc., etc., etc., I think that maybe, like with most of us children, it takes a cataclysmic force to enable us to confront what we've been "taught" and come to grips with the truth inside ourselves and where we need to be at that time.

Sometimes it seems fear usually obstructs that until we're ready. In the mean time the fundamental "truths" provide a basic conduit to enlightenment, but fundamentalism also obstructs enlightenment with the penalties that are taught along with the good stuff. It depends it seems on where one is at in the path and what they're able to absorb at that point.

Of course this is simply MHO, nothing more. I'm sure I'm all wet in many ways. I hope I haven't offended anyone. I certainly have so much still to learn.

Especially regarding YiJing : )

Deb
 
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yellowblue

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PS

I'm not saying that the Bible or Yi Jing isn't pure or factual, only that mankind's interpretation is biased.

Deb
 
C

candid

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I have no regrets for the 20 years of being a Christian. I learned things I wouldn't have learned otherwise. The good and the bad. I choose to keep the good, or try to. Truth isn't defined by any religion. Its just truth.
 
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yellowblue

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Candid,
Everything, every step closer to truth has come from my "Christian" upbringing. And I'm glad for it and the 46, the steps through effort it has provided that have allowed me to become nearer to the "truth". I think that "truth" is the lamp that guides us to the bright light.

But I can't identify Christ with Christianity.

Deb
 

sparhawk

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Hi all,

If anybody is interested, there is a book that address the Yi from a Christian perspective specifically:

Embracing Change
Postmodern Interpretations of the I Ching
From a Christian Perspective

by Jung Young Lee
1994 Associated University Presses
ISBN 0-940866-23-4


It address a lot of the questions raised here.

Cheers,

Luis
 
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yellowblue

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Then again, this thread is not about Christ vs Christianity.

The Bible and Yi is full of paralles. I think that Christ's parables are especially reflective of this.

hex 14 = the parable of the talents

hex 43 maybe the parable of wheat and tares....

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door,
I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
Revelation 3:20 (NIV)" Could this be hex 4-- being receptive to the teaching (line 5)?

This goes on and on, and as the Yi, isn't always literal, but is ideal in the moment and the question and the reception, but it's all the same.

Sometimes what we have become accustomed to needs a new "twist". Maybe that's all it is. To one who's grown up with the dao de jing or bible it isn't that impressive.

Is it just another way of hearing or coming to know the truth? Maybe this is the crux of Val's inquiry.

Deb
 

gene

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The Book of Revelations was not popular with the early Roman Church, but it was included in the canon because it had such popularity and widespread raport with the population that it was left alone. Ironically, the book has a warning in it that "if anyone should add to the words of this book, to him shall be added the plagues therein." And the rulers were just fearful enough, that they didn't interpolate too much, and we have one book that has come down to us in pure form. No wonder the Roman Church didn't like it. When it talked about Babylon the Great, it mentioned the City that sitteth on seven mountains and rules over the kings of the earth. Who else could that be but Rome? Oh my, wonder of wonders.

Anyway..."The way, the truth and the life." "No man cometh to the father but by me." And the church interpreted that to me the only way was believing Jesus was The unique "Son of God." But Jesus being Jewish, went by the law. And his real meaning more likely was, the way that I follow is the way. When he said follow me, he meant follow the way. Follow the law. Not just the ten commandments of course, but the hidden law, discovered through the secret codes of the Torah. Of course, the hidden law is the word. (The commandment) and John saw the word as being made flesh in Jesus Christ. In these versus, as well as others, the Roman Authorities had their excuse to make Jesus into a god, in fact the only true god, and make a "way" into a religion. But Jesus himself said, "Does it not say in your own Scriptures, "that ye are gods?" Perhaps Jesus teaching was that we all have the spark of the divine in us. "And greater things shall ye do, for I go unto my father." "As you have believed, so shall it be done unto you." In hexagram 10 we have treading, what do we tread on? We tread on the way. We tread on the path. We tread on the Dao. And when we tread properly, the end of that treading is "Peace, #11." Heaven and earth unite.

In hexagram 20, the wise ones of old, the sage(s) contemplated the needs of the people and gave them instruction. Jesus taught in parables, that in "hearing they might (or not) hear, and in seeing they might (or not) see. The I Ching too, is written in parable in many ways. That is why it is so hard to understand the original Chinese. So much is written in metaphors, the metaphors have many meanings on many levels.

More later,
Gene
 

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