Therapeutic Intent And The Art of Observation

[pantherpanther]

View attachment 690

 

[neegula]

"Instead of organs, the Eastern systems see an entire person; instead of
discreteness, they see a complex of energetic inter-connectedness
between practitioner, patient, and the life network. Instead of warriors in
battle, they are handmaidens assisting a return to balance. Their own life
energies are inextricably inter-twined with those of their patients, and their
emphasis is on prevention and a theory of health.
(...)

If many observers, over many thousands of years, from many different cultures, have reported these
energetic interactions, and demonstrated their therapeutic usefulness,
perhaps our contribution is to discover exactly what is happening, and how to optimize its effects."

i wanted just to give evidence to this part of the document 'cause it is worth of attention imo; it suggests also a reflection about the kind of relation we have with-in ourselves towards sickness and health.

when you are sick, do you "rest" and wait for medicines coming from outside,
or you "rest" while working on "what's going on? how can i optimize deases's effects?"

 

[elvis]

The fundamentals of holistic healing is grounded in symmetry where we have a closed system and all is relationships. The hierarchy present is web or network like and the overall form takes on a 'small world' network appearance where short cuts are allowed, local trust is available and so levels easily crossed.

Abstractions are limited to sensations of "X-ness" with sensory dynamics in the form of secondary harmonics dominating (images, sounds, smells etc).

The overall focus in on trust in others(another) and the flow focus covers not FIVE phases but in fact FOUR. In five-phase, or qi science, the distinctions are made of WOOD, FIRE, WATER, EARTH, and METAL.

Analysis of these classes of meanings reveal them to conform to classes derived in Western socio-economic contexts where the qi involved is manifest as capital. Thus we have:

WOOD - production (re-production and new production)
EARTH - filtration (externally sourced and internally sourced)
METAL - exchange(cooperative and competitive; retailers)
WATER/FIRE- distribution (internal (water, aka consumption) and external (wholesalers))

The eight classes of meanings derived in IDM map these to the eight classes of meanings derived in the I Ching trigrams:

WOOD - wind and thunder (covers emotions of anticipation and surprise)
EARTH - earth and mountain (covers fear and grief, devotion to others and discernment)
METAL - lake and heaven (covers joy and anger)
WATER - water (covers issues of rejection/rejecting)
FIRE- fire (covers issues of acceptance, direction setting)

The derivation of classes of meanings from recursion of dichotomies is a process that sets a boundary, the elements of the dichotomy, out of which emerge the classes. As such we see an origin in symmetry and with that the focus on relational space over object space, the dynamics of managing the flow of qi - be it as 'life energy' or 'capital' or 'social capital' = SAME classes, DIFFERENT contexts, DIFFERENT labels.

The problem with holistic healing is the focus on a CLOSED system and as such a grounding in SAMENESS (gets into such as homeopathy etc). The closed system focus means 'all is known' but it is the play of highs, and lows, the raw vs the refined that matters.

Evolution shows us that our brains have 'transcended' such a limited position in that reality is more about the experience of DIFFERENCES and dangers of - as such, holistic health has problems in dealing with viruses where such demands a RIGID pyramid or tree-like hierarchy that is focused on protection of the symmetric from the outside (whereas the symmetric is focused on maintaining overall balance of the closed system).

Thus, for example, anti-viral drugs do better at dealing with HIV than do the holistic methods on offer. Bacterial infections on the other hand can be covered using holistic methods where such avoid the massive imbalance that such anti-biotics can let-loose if not managed properly (although take longer to heal the original infection than anti-biotics can do)

The realm of symmetry is a realm grounded in relational dynamics within a single 'whole'. As such the dynamics cover a topological focus on symmetry distortions but cannot deal with symmetry breaking and it is at the breaking levels that the realm of anti-symmetry and asymmetry work - in these areas we focus on the mereological rather than the topological and in so doing focus on the uniqueness of consciousness as expressed in each individual.

The play of anti-symmetry and symmetry IS a play of competitive vs cooperative but the mediation element of the asymmetric, in the form of consciousness, adds another dimension to things where such includes the development of languages.

Thus, for example, basic holistic, qi-focused, perspectives LACK this detail due to the limitations in deriving categories where it takes DEPTH in the categorisation to elicit the language capabilities that can extend current perspectives. IOW western-derived precision in understanding can aid in holistic perspectives.

 

[neegula]

as Someone said, put together western rationality and discovering with eastern wisdom...

among traditional western medicines and homeopathy, agopuncture and kinesiology stand. and they stand very clearly!

elvis, i'm so sorry that for me it is so difficult to read and understand your very smart english language, but i always read you with pleasure:bows:

 

[hilary]

The part Neegula highlighted jumps out at me as my reading for the year begins with 54 - so thank you for this.

Seems to me that everything the article says about an approach to medicine can be applied to an approach to divination - more or less has to be, in fact. I can ask very focussed, specific questions, but I won't get far if I try to confine the reading in a little topic-shaped box.

 

[pantherpanther]

The part Neegula highlighted jumps out at me as my reading for the year begins with 54 - so thank you for this.

Seems to me that everything the article says about an approach to medicine can be applied to an approach to divination - more or less has to be, in fact. I can ask very focussed, specific questions, but I won't get far if I try to confine the reading in a little topic-shaped box.

I think Stephan A Schwartz understands that medicine is an art and a science and our consciousness is not limited to one level or scale of perception. We can make precise observations and then process them in relation to deeper levels of experience and knowledge. I think you suggest a similar approach can apply to divination . I commented recently on energy work in healing which also applies :

(#1) http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=
103908#post103908
"For those with some practical experience of energy work , modern science
can enhance their knowledge . There is no conflict , so speak, from looking
through a telescope and a microscope [ at matter.] One can [also] observe
what is visible from a perspective that includes an awareness of
phenomena that are not "visible" .

Some clinics in Asia include both Western and Oriental medicine. Twenty-
five years ago, a friend went to China and became certified in Tui Na (a
branch of TCM [a contemporary version of Oriental medicine]) and worked
in a clinic there for ten years. He told me they had a cure rate for cancers
above 90%, including many that would be diagnosed as terminal in the
West.

When I asked him why he hadn't started a clinic here - this was ten years
ago - he said he would need a million dollar war chest to deal with attacks
from the medical industry. He also became a Taoist priest and his
knowledge of the I Ching was profound and he applied it in his medical and
martial arts practices. (He was legally adopted as a son by a Chinese
lineage master who transmitted his full teaching to only two pupils.The other
was an Oriental.)

There are hundreds of chants,and also rituals and practices that relate to
the content of the I Ching, including using it as a means for divination.
I think its "ideas" can be approached and verified by individual energy
practice without knowledge of rituals,chants and so on. The human energy
anatomy is universal, and its relation to the cosmology of the I Ching is
similar to that found in other traditions. It is a "living system," and the
work is how to experience that in oneself and outside oneself. You may be
correct that number (and music) are aspects to be considered in reading
its "map."

You ([Chris] note:
The more specialisations focus on mapping reality so the more they take-on
the 'shape' of our filtering system - the neurology.

Our nervous system (or systems) are more complex than you seem to
imply , and the mind's awareness and perception may include other
active "brains" than what is observable in the neurons of the brain. What is
observed in those neurons may be like a partial caricature of yesterday's
news to the mind and not felt as "emotions" or of interest or value to one's
conscious work for understanding or perhaps transformation ...

Consider the I Ching represents as a whole a progressive,
ascending/descending harmonic scale of inner light,sound and silence
spiraling around a fundamental tone that can be experienced in the WHOLE
body [as in "the mind-body"] , not "mystically" or "mentally" . While it
describes real life, mundane conditions and processes in time in symbolic
language and hexagrams, these resonate with the whole on a larger scale.
The hexagrams may not be perceived in terms of "words" but through an
inner hearing that conveys meaning. This does not agree with the process
of "filtering" you write of as generating "meaning" on " a concrete level" that
is isomorphic with the "meanings" generated by the I Ching . You assume
that the creators of the I Ching were not knowledgeable of universal laws of
scale as well as the structure of humans and knew how to work with them." unquote.

Chris and I had a series of exchanges on a Divination thread last
week which moved to Open Space.What he says above on Schwartz's
essay on Therapeutic Intent, Chris and I have already, so to speak,
discussed in our previous exchanges on his views and mine.
I have a background in hard science and medicine, and also
an interest in what Schwartz refers to as knowledge of "the ancients,"
including the I Ching. I questioned in our series of exchanges Chris's
understanding of the science of neurology and the validity of relating that
through IDM to his IDM model of the I Ching "system" of words and numbers.

I think I understand his thinking as represented in IDM, although he is
convinced I don't . We mean different things by "conscousness," "scale,"
"holistic" and many other terms, because our worldviews are different.
I think Traditional knowledge and modern materialistic science both
contain truth, as Schwartz indicates. Chris misreads Schwartz , based
on his bias, in the same way he has me in our previous exchanges.
His IDM theory ["construct" is the term I would use among colleagues
who do scientifiic research] is elegant and complex . I don't think it
works, except theoretically.

I gather I am one of many on Clarity who has engaged in a discussion
with Chris. It has been fun.I briefly summed up my views, after many
interesting exchanges:
(#3)
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=103908#post103908

 

[elvis]

His IDM theory ["construct" is the term I would use among colleagues
who do scientifiic research] is elegant and complex . I don't think it
works, except theoretically.

(1) The EIC works.
(2) The EIC is derived from the IDM work and as such is a practical example of the application of the IDM model.
(3) The IDM perspective on the roots of mathematics etc is being taught as part of the training to get around 'math phobia' issues.
(4) The IDM perspective on persona typologies is extending understanding of such.

IOW we have moved well beyond the realm of the 'theoretical'.

 

[pantherpanther]

(1) The EIC works.
(2) The EIC is derived from the IDM work and as such is a practical example of the application of the IDM model.
(3) The IDM perspective on the roots of mathematics etc is being taught as part of the training to get around 'math phobia' issues.
(4) The IDM perspective on persona typologies is extending understanding of such.

IOW we have moved well beyond the realm of the 'theoretical'.

With all due respect, I suggest there is nothing fundamentaly original in your applying mathematical theory to the I Ching. I think Leibnitz's mathematics has been applied in a similar way. Many of my comments addressed your knowledge of neurology and your giving an arbitrary interpretation of the language of the hexagrams. I don't agree with many of your responses in this regard. As for my own ideas concerning the I Ching,which are not original and are based on a traditional body of knowledge, I think you reject them, which indiicates we have different world-views and experience.

 

[elvis]

With all due respect, I suggest there is nothing fundamentally original in your applying mathematical theory to the I Ching.

There is no such application. There is the application of neural operations that reflect the use of logic operators and in doing so the clear identification of THREE forms of dichotomisation and so yang/yin interpretations used in deriving meaning.

The ABILITY to extract parts information from a hexagram stems from understanding the nature of asymmetric dichotomies and what happens when these are recursed - as covered in the IDM material

This dynamic applies to all recursed dichotomies that take on the form of asymmetric interpretation (and so map to part/whole elements of the dichotomy) - IDM even includes identification of the foundations of mathematics and as such the classes derived in IDM precede the formalisation of such in the specialist language of mathematics.

I think Leibnitz's mathematics has been applied in a similar way. Many of my comments addressed your knowledge of neurology and your giving an arbitrary interpretation of the language of the hexagrams.

My knowledge of neurology is thorough and the IDM reference set covers the material considered in the model:

http://www.emotionaliching.com/myweb/brefs.html
http://www.emotionaliching.com/myweb/neurorefs.html
http://www.emotionaliching.com/myweb/dencerefs.html
http://www.emotionaliching.com/myweb/formrefs.html
http://www.emotionaliching.com/myweb/irefs.html

As for the I Ching language focus, there is nothing arbitrary involved. The first pattern identified was 27-ness and I suggest you try it out before dismissing the argument. The 'traditional' application of logic operators to I Ching hexagrams has NEVER been done in the context of how the brain processes information and so the differences between symmetric, anti-symmetric, and asymmetric forms of dichotomy. Thus the traditional application of XOR was on difference between 'equal' elements, here we find that if the interpretation is considered asymmetric (and so covering the brain bias in part/whole processing) the language element of the I Ching presents itself and we get access to hexagram details not manifest in the traditional methods you seem to favour.

I don't agree with many of your responses in this regard. As for my own ideas concerning the I Ching,which are not original and are based on a traditional body of knowledge, I think you reject them, which indiicates we have different world-views and experience.

I don't totally reject your point of view, I just think it is limited, past its 'best before' date and as such antiquated when we consider what comes out of the IDM focus on what the neurology tells us vs thousands of years of speculations grounded in ignorance.

The 10th century BC model of the I Ching covers a LIMITED mindset that is then interpreted from a 21st century AD mindset and so a lot is projected onto that 10th century BC model that is NOT THERE in the original. One must always take CONTEXT into consideration when analysing ancient texts lest one sees more than is in the original but interprets such to have been recognised as such!

The limited mindsets of ancient civilisations is brought out in consideration of the structures of their languages and their use of local history/legend/myth to aid in the language - as such there is a context dependency and that influences the expression of personal consciousness.

The more developed the language the more universal it becomes such that local context dependencies are not required. The 10th century BC focus contains much local context dependencies and so shows a PRIMITIVE mindset at work. 3000 years later we have 'moved on' a bit and only the universal elements present become of interest - as covered in IDM and the EIC - I can change the labels of the EIC and make the I Ching 'disappear' but it will still work since the underlying patterns are not unique to ancient china, they are universals we all share as neuron-dependent life forms.

The advantage of retaining the I Ching symbolisms etc is that they work well in the focus on recursion and dichotomisation. BENEATH the local terms are QUALITIES that are universals and so the trigrams map to a set of basics than exploited for more sophisticated representations where such includes identification of the emergent properties of language development.

Thus the 21st century AD perspective can be used to flesh out content, but still retain style, of the 10th BC perspective if need be, but the fuller version transcends that limited perspective and that is more useful than sticking, religiously, to the traditional perspective.

 

[pantherpanther]

We are back to basic differences in our views. Your belief is clear that so-called "primitive minds" did not understand "neurology" on a more sophisticated level than contemporary science has begun to explore. There was a class which did possess "great knowledge".
Science's advances in technology are still too crude to measure energy that the mind is capable of doing . The energy anatomy of the human is only beginning to be partialy observed and far from understood how it works.
Mind-to-mind transmission - and a lesser function, mental telepathy; clairvoyance, clairaudience are skills that were taught and still are learned. . Bilocality, distant healing and so on, that are often called "miraculous" are "lawful " facts of life which what you consider "the 21st mind" - which is not the "conscious mind" that we should be educated to develop in our youth - is not able to understand.

 

[elvis]

We are back to basic differences in our views. Your belief is clear that so-called "primitive minds" did not understand "neurology" on a more sophisticated level than contemporary science has begun to explore. There was a class which did possess "great knowledge".

specifics? You got this from some mystical text or some anthropological study? Savant skills come from basic neurology so you cant be talking about that - or perhaps you are but are not aware of associative memory dynamics?

Science's advances in technology are still too crude to measure energy that the mind is capable of doing . The energy anatomy of the human is only beginning to be partialy observed and far from understood how it works.

So what? The IDM focus is on the foundations of MEANING and as such covers the POSSIBLE classes of meanings GIVEN the neurology. From that comes "what is possible give this material" and we find that all we have come up with so far is possible and that includes transcending 10th century BC mindsets. The communication of material DEMANDS sameness and as such the basic neurology that serves us all. Specialist perspectives create specialist languages but these are all metaphors for describing patterns of 'nouns n verbs', differentiations and intregrations, particles(pulses) and waves etc etc etc Ancient perspectives were strongly metaphoric, strongly tied to local history/legend/myth, and as such were too symmetric and lacking in precision (where such included the use of symmetric logic).

We can identify the foundations of mathematics, the I Ching, socio-economic categories, classes of consciousness etc etc etc from the material so I don't see what the problem is - UNLESS you have issues with material that may demand a large paradigm shift in your belief systems. Have you been through Fraser's "Golden Bough"? There is NOTHING in that material that is 'outside' of what IDM covers. There is a LOT that IDM covers that could benefit those still favouring that perspective.

Mind-to-mind transmission - and a lesser function, mental telepathy; clairvoyance, clairaudience are skills that were taught and still are learned. . Bilocality, distant healing and so on, that are often called "miraculous" are "lawful " facts of life which what you consider "the 21st mind" - which is not the "conscious mind" that we should be educated to develop in our youth - is not able to understand.

Basic resonance due to symmetric characteristics is covered in such as identical twins, radio crystals, cancer cells, lab rats, and so on. Nothing 'strange' as such, nothing 'miraculous' as such, and all covered in the IDM focus on meaning generation through use of resonance. You seem to use the above as if I don't know anything about them! LOL! IMHO your a touch out of your depth here dude.

I agree it is REALLY hard for traditionalists to accept the EIC work since there is the implication that they missed material they should have picked up on - BUT we have to understand that the approach to the IC has been mystical to some, religious to others, and these realms lack precision, they are more into symmetries than asymmetry and so open to the vagueness of symmetric perspectives.

The symmetry context demands a SINGLE object in which all is RELATIONSHIPS. This is covered in holistic medicine etc, but as I have stated before, this perspective is limited, almost autistic in its limitations even if it has savant like capabilities that can 'transcend' every day skills. The problem with any focus on rich associative memory systems is the holistic perspective - it LIMITS individuality and that is an issue for a life form grounded in mediation skills and on being 'different' just as there is the species focus on being 'same'.

The savant skills POSSIBLE in humans come with limiting factors due to specialist perspectives that demand object differentiation. The IDM work in fact allows for development of those skills through the use of serial details that aid in refining parallel behaviours, reason allows for refinement of intuition.

There are lots of courses around promoting 'savant like' skills for a fee - and often are a rip off and done in an ad-hoc manner since those doing it don't know exactly what they are dealing with!

To be able to memorise 'war and peace' or calendar details or prime numbers etc reflects copy skills and the development of associative memory systems (where such use constructive/destructive wave interference patterns to work)

The IDM work shows it is POSSIBLE to teach this level of knowledge but it does not elicit understanding. The object problem of autism is present in 'lower' life forms as well where all meaning is ONLY in secondary sensory harmonics due to the lack of development of discretisation, and so objectification, skills.

You obviously don't understand all of this as being basic to the neurology - no 'secret' or ''special' natures required - just basic understanding of what we are dealing with - and the IDM work, and so EIC, covers that.

 

[pantherpanther]

elvis,
A colloquial term, "gold-plated turkey," may describe those who are limited to linear thought, incapable of intelligent exchange beyond that , yet determined to affirm their superficial knowledge . I don't mean to appear ungenerous or discourteous. It's just that your comments have become ridiculous.

 

[elvis]

In other words you lack the training and skill to deal with the points made - trying to run and hide will not help you (you seem to have an attraction to 'secret knowledge' etc which implies some issues with self-esteem - you have some need to be 'special' and in so doing will fight/dismiss anything that could possibly reveal and bring down your current perspectives that hold you together! ;-))

What you obviously miss totally is that the IDM/EIC work covers the linear and the non-linear, the nature of the serial and the parallel and even introduces precise methods in training one from the other.

I wish you luck in your journey to nowhere (a problem with too rigid symmetric thinking is that it lacks direction and as such goes nowhere)

..and writing lies like this:

"I don't mean to appear ungenerous or discourteous. It's just that your comments have become ridiculous. "

... does not benefit you - you OBVIOUSLY intend to be 'ungenerous and discourteous' and you have used this form of wheedling prose before - it is a trait of yours, a form of self-promotion asking for forgiveness for doing exactly what you intend to do. Pathetic; almost sociopathic... although it also shows a grounding in fear and so some strong need to protect yourself - more of that attraction to trying to 'hide' the real 'you'! LOL! Come on dude, get your act together, its the 21st century AD and your antiquated approach is up for refurbishment (IMHO ;-))

 

[pantherpanther]

Polymath , statesman and magister ludi Ouyang Xiu (1007-72), writes in Written in a Dream:
The weiqi game comes to an end, one is unaware that in the meantime the world has changed

"I love the smell of napalm in the morning."
- Apocalypse Now , 1979