Time for Salary increase: 7.2 ->2?

[luz]

There are things about Willowfox's approach I don't like, but the desire to give people a reading they can act on is not one of them. It creates a thoroughly scary responsibility, but I think that's something any diviner lives with.

The problem I have with this is when somebody gives you a reading with such certainty, such authority.. I don't see anybody else doing it in this forum. Willowfox goes even as far as telling people "I already told you this or that" , as if scolding them for wanting other opinions or asking more questions. I think this is too much.

There is an implicit responsability in any advice a person gives to another person, with or without a divination method. So, it's not an issue of methods of divination, it's an issue of personal attitude. I would only take advice that comes with "I know better, listen to me" from people that care deeply about me because they know me, they know my situation and they have my best interest in mind. In this medium, we don't know each other that well and the foremost interest in some people seems to be to prove themselves right.

I think that the I Ching, primarily, speaks to our own intuition, that the words and the images have to somehow resonate within ourselves so that they can become meaningful.

I also believe that people can read for other people. I know I have counted on that again and again. This can happen when people give their own opinions, their own experiences with a certain hexagram and lines giving the questioner more associations, more images, more possibilities to open up their understanding. Other times, I think people get a 'feeling' in themselves about somebody else's situation. Their intuition tunes up with the questioner and they might have as a result a very accurate picture of the situation and a very accurate answer to the question.

A professional diviner can do this again and again, but it must take some... don't know what to call it... attention, concentration, mindfulness?

I am trying to contrast this with what I see when somebody seems to have a canned answer for every single question under the sun. We had a thread before about what makes people respond to a particular question. And you can see there that they have to feel in some way comfortable with what they have to say to even say it at all. So, it just baffles me if somebody thinks that they have an answer for everybody. And, on top of that, they speak with such utmost authority.. It just doesn't seem right.

 

[willowfox]

Hello lightangel,

The problem I have with this is when somebody gives you a reading with such certainty, such authority.. I don't see anybody else doing it in this forum. Willowfox goes even as far as telling people "I already told you this or that" , as if scolding them for wanting other opinions or asking more questions. I think this is too much.

I thought you had finished hounding me, yesterday? Oh well, here we go again.

"I think this is too much." Do you really? I have a suggestion for you, how about you do more readings for others and be less judgemental of me. Chasing me serves no purpose does it? Better you use your available time more productively.

"So, it just baffles me if somebody thinks that they have an answer for everybody. And, on top of that, they speak with such utmost authority.. It just doesn't seem right."

Every question has an answer, seek and you will find it. Now that seems right.

"I also believe that people can read for other people. I know I have counted on that again and again. This can happen when people give their own opinions, their own experiences with a certain hexagram and lines giving the questioner more associations, more images, more possibilities to open up their understanding. Other times, I think people get a 'feeling' in themselves about somebody else's situation. Their intuition tunes up with the questioner and they might have as a result a very accurate picture of the situation and a very accurate answer to the question."

Above statement is your answer to "So, it just baffles me if somebody thinks that they have an answer for everybody. And, on top of that, they speak with such utmost authority.."

Why do you ask a question when you already know the answer to it, like the one above?

 

[luz]

WF,

I have stopped trying to communicate with you. You feel attacked very easily and you don't really give answers to my questions so why bother.

As far as 'hounding' you, I have no personal crusade against you but I believe that I am free to express my opinion, just as much as you are free to say whatever you want (unless, of course, I am banned from the forum.. freedom has its limits, that's for sure).
If I felt like it, I could post right after your every post to say I disagree with your approach. I don't think I want to do that but it's my prerrogative, isn't it?

 

[bruce_g]

Trying to reason with someone (anyone) who views their words as being infallible is like trying to row a boat on hard pavement: you don’t go anywhere, you just wear away your oars.

 

[RindaR]

Perhaps WF is living by 23.3. As LiSe puts it:

6 at 3: Stripping it. Without fault.
To be yourself, live your life, make your decisions, you have to break away from all those people who tell you how to live, or even without saying anything, expecting you to live according to their views. Even if you choose an absurd life - so what? It is your life.

She can also expect us to do the same when that seems right to us.

Rinda

 

[martin]

Willowfox, nobody was or is "hounding" you as far as I see. There is a difference of opinion about how to use the I Ching and so debate (with a bit of pepper sometimes, is that so bad? I think it's fun ) but I don't think that anyone is attacking you as a person.

 

[willowfox]

Hello lightangel,

It's entirely up to you what you do or don't do, I could not care less.

 

[willowfox]

Hello martin,

"but I don't think that anyone is attacking you as a person."

to be quite honest, I am not concerned about it, I find it rather fun.

 

[willowfox]

Hello rinda,

"Even if you choose an absurd life - so what? It is your life."

Quite correct, choosing to be a diviner/fortune teller/astrologer/palm reader is an absurd profession to take up but it is my life after all.

When you judge another try to be honest, and not twist that person's words or invent things that were not mentioned by that person in the first place.

 

[RindaR]

Hello rinda,

"Even if you choose an absurd life - so what? It is your life."

Quite correct, choosing to be a diviner/fortune teller/astrologer/palm reader is an absurd profession to take up but it is my life after all.

When you judge another try to be honest, and not twist that person's words or invent things that were not mentioned by that person in the first place.

ah, perhaps you misunderstand... that was part of the reading. I didn't use any of your words, so couldn't have twisted them.

http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/hex_17-32/hex_e_23.htm

 

[martin]

Quite correct, choosing to be a diviner/fortune teller/astrologer/palm reader is an absurd profession to take up but it is my life after all.

Do you earn a living with it? I once tried it as an astrologer when I was inbetween jobs. It was very interesting to do charts for people I didn't know and I learned a lot. But moneywise, argh!

 

[willowfox]

Hello martin,

Yes, I earn money, but I am not doing it to get rich, I do it because I enjoy doing readings for people, I always have. My business gives me an income and it gives me freedom to do other things, like doing readings for people who come by, and it gives me the time to look after my animals as well.

 

[hilary]

Or, of course, we could keep on discussing it right here...

Looking back at Trojan's post...

It's not about desiring to influence anyone's decision, it's about knowing that whatever you say will have an influence. I think Willowfox has something of a point - that the difference between what she does and what anyone else does here is a matter of degree. More prediction, more certainty, less diffidence, and of course a whole lot less desire to support people in interpreting their own readings, and a whole lot more to interpret on their behalf and present pre-packaged answers.

I expect you already know I don't believe in cast-iron predictions, either, and am no fan of fortune-telling.

(Hm - reading further on, we seem to have some different definitions floating around. When I say 'fortune telling' I mean 'telling people what will happen'. No insight into processes at work, no advice, no options, just predictions - with or without dates.)

There's no getting round the fact that some readings are discouraging. There may be no such thing as 'it'll never happen' in a reading, but there is certainly such a thing as 'the odds are 100:1 against, and meanwhile this is eating you alive.' Interpreting such readings as clearly and straightforwardly as you can is not a sign of being uncaring.

(Giving encouragement because one feels more comfortable when people are happy is not a sign of being caring, either.)

Willowfox, we are back to people's desire for you to show how you reach the conclusions you do. I remember you saying once you hadn't been asked this before. Well, now you have - repeatedly... Why not take this as an opportunity to teach? I think that - and maybe reading a little more slowly, so you don't mistake friendly overtures like Rinda's for another attack - would make a big difference to your reception here.

Martin - tell me about it...

 

[hilary]

P.S. Missed your last post, Willowfox. Animals? tell us more. Especially now I've got the photo upload working again...

 

[willowfox]

Hi hilary,

Well, I keep dogs, cats, budgies, chickens(only a few), pidgeons, and my very good friend, an African grey parrot.

"I think Willowfox has something of a point - that the difference between what she does and what anyone else does here is a matter of degree."
I think that sums it exactly, except I go further with a reading than most people here either can do or are prepared to do.

I did try to show people here how I got my answers but certain people took it into their heads to make me look like some kind of side show freak at the county fair, so I no longer bother to explain because I am doing the reading for the person who asked the question, and not for the person who wants to know out of idle curiosity, who then immediately tries to find non existant faults with my reading. It is a case of once bitten, twice shy.

 

[RindaR]

Hi hilary,

<snip>
"I think Willowfox has something of a point - that the difference between what she does and what anyone else does here is a matter of degree."
I think that sums it exactly, except I go further with a reading than most people here either can do or are prepared to do.
<snip>

Those might not be fighting words, if you substituted "were willing to do" rather than the words you chose "either can do or are prepared to do". We are all different, and bring different experiences and insight with us.

I find the chorus of voices here more valuable than any one voice. Yours would be more beautiful, more welcome (as would anyone else's in the same situation) without the apparrent assumption that you do better than anyone else all by yourself (as noted in your words above), or that we are in some kind of competition (as apparrent in your sometimes - to my ear - strident posts).

In each thread there is a melody, harmony and there are grace notes. Even a little dissonance makes things more interesting when it can be resolved. Without silences, the music could not exist. Everything has it's place in the flow. Musicians (and diviners here?) need to listen to others and respect others' contributions at least as much as as they play or sing or post. Stridence in general may get one more attention, may be more fun in the short term, but does not earn as much respect in the long run.

 

[willowfox]

Hello rinda,

"Musicians (and diviners here?) need to listen to others and respect others' contributions at least as much as as they play or sing or post."

You want me to listen to others, no problem but a little respect shown towards my contributions would go a long way as well.

"Without silences, the music could not exist."

Okay, goodnight.

 

[heylise]

Rinda, I don't think anyone could have expressed this in a more beautiful, clear, way. You speak what I, and probably everyone, feels.
It would be great to play melodies together, with all those different instruments we have here. So much diversity, I'd love to enjoy them all.
:bows:
LiSe

 

[bruce_g]

Just sharing a thought, inspired by some of Rinda’s words, and also by Yi’s answer to me about issues arising within this thread – hexagram 19.

When I assist someone with interpreting their reading one-on-one, it’s quite different than attempting to be helpful in an environment like Clarity, where several people gather, each playing their own instrument, and even quite possibly their own song. One-on-one, there is a direct and sometimes intimate connection. There must be mutual trust before I’ll even attempt to satisfy the request to interpret for someone. With that trust and connection, there is sometimes a sort of mystical power, as though both reader and sitter are in the presence of the Sage. This is why I, as the reader, learn at least as much from the sitting as the sitter does. The Overseer gives the answer and I merely help to decipher for the sitter. The term “medium” applies accurately here. One danger in this is that the reader forgets that their job is to decipher the prophetic message, and instead becomes the Overseer. Don’t tell me it’s never happened to you.

To complicate matters further, the soloist enters an orchestra. Here, Rinda’s choice of the word “strident” fits perfectly. The soloist enters the field together with other artists. This is an entirely different field of activity, and unless the artist’s approach is modified to fit in with the other musicians, they’ll stand out like a bad note. Then, when the strident note is pointed out, they’ll become defensive and sometimes hostile. Don’t tell me it hasn’t happened to you. If you’ve been around here, rubbing elbows and sometimes bumping heads, it’s happened to you and to me.

It just requires a different approach. I play guitar, often alone. I can vary my tempo and key, change themes and temperament, any time I’m so inspired. I also play with others. Sometimes a jam session, sometimes a rehearsal, sometimes a performance or recording session. The more musicians there are, the more modest my playing becomes. It has to in order to fit in. Of course there’s always the solo part within the orchestra, but when the solo is completed, I must blend back into the whole again. Honestly, that’s not always easy, because I sometimes get so swept up in the solo that my energy is soaring, even after completion.

Ok, my solo is over now.

 

[hilary]

*watching conductor, watching leader, watching soloist, half an eye on desk partner, orchestral antennae twitching, bow on string, waiting for that trill...*

(Yes, different kind of solo, I know )

Rinda - what LiSe said. :bows:

 

[jesed]

Well, then please advice when joining as Friend, the only music allowed in this orchesta to not be a bad note....

BTW, not only the solo can be defensive.. also the older members of the orchesta faced new music.

 

[willowfox]

"To complicate matters further, the soloist enters an orchestra. Here, Rinda’s choice of the word “strident” fits perfectly. The soloist enters the field together with other artists. This is an entirely different field of activity, and unless the artist’s approach is modified to fit in with the other musicians, they’ll stand out like a bad note. Then, when the strident note is pointed out, they’ll become defensive and sometimes hostile."

I am not part of an orchestra, bruce, I am a member of a heavy metal band, therefore the word "strident" fits nicely. As I am lead guitarist, so I intend for my note, as somebody put it, to stand out, for good or bad. Some people like my music, so I don't give a damn what the small group of critics in the audience have to say, I play my music for the world and not just for a crowd of old turtles. My music is for those with a love of modern music, I know the old people and pensioners don't like what I play, they always complain of the noise and how my music hurts their ears. So my advice to them is, if you don't like what I play, then don't listen.

 

[willowfox]

Jesed wrote,

"BTW, not only the soloist can be defensive.. also the older members of the orchestra when faced with new music."

They can also be very hostile as well when faced with new music.

 

[martin]

Where is the new music? If I hear such things as "in march 2007 you will break your leg" (okay, I'm exaggerating ) then to me, that's old music, very old, ancient history.
What is new in divination land - and this seems to be a fairly recent development, although there probably always have been diviners who did it this way - is a tendency to move away from absolutes.
There are perhaps a few things in life that are set in stone but not so many. The new heavy metal Yi guitarists realize that and don't try to make reality more certain or clearer than it is. And so they can be vague sometimes, very vague. Which may irritate the querent. Because what does he or she want? Certainty, right? But do we help the querent when we play the music that he or she wants to hear?

 

[martin]

Querent: X=?

Old diviner: X=2.6537489 !

New diviner: X is somewhere inbetween 1 and 100, umm, probably ..

 

[hilary]

Or x is a function of y, z and q.

I think Jesed and WF meant new to the ICC, though, and in that they have a point.

 

[bruce_g]

Because I say timeline predictions give me the creeps, especially when predicted with such certainty, this makes me defensive and/or offensive? Maybe it gives me the creeps because I’ve heard that old song many times before, and because it has rarely played out according to prediction. Visit any Yahoo astrology or so-called empathic forum and that’s all you hear. There’s nothing new about it. I also have predicted future events, with and without the Yi, I’ve astral plain-ed and have acted as medium between the living and the dead. Big deal. I don’t drag those old tunes into this band. Far as I know, this isn’t a psychic forum, so why would I?

And I’ve seen no prejudice toward newer or younger members here. Not by me nor anyone else. People have a right to agree or disagree, that’s all. If rugged individualism is fair for the young, shouldn't it be fair for the old too?

But, whatever. It’s all rock-n-roll to me.

 

[bruce_g]

Willowfox, how many lead guitar players does it take to screw in a light bulb? Just one: he holds it and the world revolves around him (old joke). I play a little lead too, so don’t take it too personally.

 

[Trojina]

It's not about desiring to influence anyone's decision, it's about knowing that whatever you say will have an influence. I think Willowfox has something of a point - that the difference between what she does and what anyone else does here is a matter of degree. More prediction, more certainty, less diffidence, and of course a whole lot less desire to support people in interpreting their own readings, and a whole lot more to interpret on their behalf and present pre-packaged answers.

I expect you already know I don't believe in cast-iron predictions, either, and am no fan of fortune-telling.

(Hm - reading further on, we seem to have some different definitions floating around. When I say 'fortune telling' I mean 'telling people what will happen'. No insight into processes at work, no advice, no options, just predictions - with or without dates.)

There's no getting round the fact that some readings are discouraging. There may be no such thing as 'it'll never happen' in a reading, but there is certainly such a thing as 'the odds are 100:1 against, and meanwhile this is eating you alive.' Interpreting such readings as clearly and straightforwardly as you can is not a sign of being uncaring.

(Giving encouragement because one feels more comfortable when people are happy is not a sign of being caring, either.)

:

No I don't think this is just a difference of degree as you suggest. As an example recently Wfox advised someone who received 54,4 to 19 that their relationship was NOT going to continue and he would NOT marry the lady he was asking about. Now to my mind theres no way 54,4 indicates that a relationship is for sure and definately over. BTW that fits with how you describe fortune telling above. You say theres no use being positive if things look discouragin yet I fail to see what it was about 54,4 that so discouraged the relationship it would be over no matter what.

I don't see any use in this kind of prediction. If I consult the Yi or asked someone to help me with it I don't want to be told the future. Why ? Cos they can't, they don't know since the future is shaped largely by our actions now. What I would want is to be helped to see whats happening in the relationship, what I'm bringing to it, whats influencing it, should I alter my perspective on it etc etc Evidence for fortune telling is pretty abysmal anyway. Like on the basis of 31,5 Wfox told me my arm would not be better for three months and it would get worse not better. Hmm well its much better thanks and 3 months haven't passed. And maybe she meant to help but fact is she didn't know the future.

What prompted me to butt into this thread was not Wfox anyway since mostly I find when Wfox just does interpretations of the Yi they can be pretty good, she doesn't always make predictions. If she does make predictions I think I've fully expressed my views before and theres no point saying it again.

What prompted me to post was annoyance that you seemed to be treating those who questioned Wfox as making a 'row'. And no its not obvious anymore that your're not a fan of fortune telling. You seem to defend it at any opportunity and treat any of us who pose an objection or question it as just causing trouble or enjoying 'bashing' as you call it or think we are picking on someone just for the hell of it. I see very often after a pretty strong prediction was made others helping, picking up the pieces giving an alternative view. I'm glad they do, but I don't see why they should bother anymore.

 

[Sparhawk]

Or x is a function of y, z and q.

Or perhaps this??





L