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"Times" // The work of Ricardo Andreé

sparhawk

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Dear all,

At last, here is something I promised a long time ago but seemed to find no time to dedicate to it and finish. The problem was compounded when some of the concepts discussed in Part 2, Section 10, "Times," needed a background explanation. Said background is found, in part, in Part 1, Sections 15-31. (Pay attention, for example, at the part where a proper structure for questioning the oracle is presented.) That added quite a bit to the translation. I have also opted to keep both files separate with links to each other.

Many of you have asked for a practical way to "time" your Yijing consultations, without obtaining a PhD in Math. Well, here it is. This is the system used by our friend Jesed every time he tried to help someone in the Shredded Readings section, before he got tired of all the useless bickering (including random threats of witchery, that are forever part of the "Clarity Annals"... :D)

Mr. Andreé's "Tratado I Ching, El Canon de las Mutaciones: El Séptimo Tiempo," is, In my opinion, one of the best --and open--, kept secrets in Yixue. The way the work is presented, and depending on their religious bent, is either very appealing to some students or easily dismissed off-hand, due in part to the somewhat dogmatic way it is presented. Mr. Andreé, whom was born in Chile, had a career as a journalist in Europe for many years, is a professor of "Comparative Religions," a writer and poet, has had a few decades of Yijing study and practice. Even though I believe he's got good command of a couple of other languages, all his work is written in his native Spanish.

I've always had mix feelings about Mr. Andreé. Much in the same way that Carol Anthony has presented her work as expanding explanations and meditations upon the Wilhelm translation, Mr. Andreé has also taken Wilhelm, whom he values above any other translation, and "expanded" the work. A good quarter of the book is about explanations and meditations like the ones shared here in translation (a very small portion of them, to be sure). The rest of the "I Ching Treatise" is dedicated to the 64 Hexagrams and their explanations. He's got many interesting hexagram interactions, such as "Ambushed Hexagrams," which tend to take over the "time" indicated by a resulting hexagram, etc. However, when I speak about my "mixed feelings" they are mainly due to my own rebellious self which have always shunned those that call themselves "Masters" and have "following disciples." He also considers himself a priest and his teachings are a mix of Christianity and Yijing focused philosophy. His prose is filled with allusions to "Saints and Sages," for example, though no Christian saints are mentioned. At the beginning, I almost disregarded his work, mostly on the account of some of his "disciples," a few of whom, other than Jesed, have crossed through the halls of Clarity in the past. (If there is something I dislike more than self-appointed masters, are the zealots that follow them without a clear understanding of what the teachings are about...). Over the years, however, and by following his work, dedication to his causes and his predictions, I have come to understand that the scale tips, heavily, on the positive side. And no, I don't subscribe to his philosophical mixture. I do respect it though, as the path he has chosen to walk and teach to others. His work is, indeed, unique.

Regarding his predictions, well, he's on record of making very accurate ones related to Chilean and world affairs as well as natural disasters such as the ones that struck Chile in the last few years. The timing method described in my translations is quite useful and accurate. For those interested, there are many examples here in Clarity of the method being used by Jesed. He has always applied the method to a dot and got mostly shooed away by wispy fortune-telling "intuition."

The "I Ching Treatise" isn't a "little book"... Below are a few pictures I took this morning (that's a 26in monitor behind it). It measures 11x8.5, has some 600 pages and is hand-sewn to boot! About the size of a phone book... Oh, and it comes with its own hand-crafted yellow cloth bag for storage. :)




A couple of disclaimers:

1. I hope you'll excuse the quality of the translation itself. I've tried my best to translate some of those philosophical concepts from the Spanish but, as you can imagine, it isn't an easy task (the reason I try to understand them, when exposed, in their own language). While I've tried hard to be true to the original, there are some terms used that do not translate well into English. I'm certain it needs some heavy editing but I've no much time for that. My apologies. However, the message is there, and a promise is a promise, albeit slow in coming. :D

2. I will not entertain arguing with anybody about the validity of the method or Mr. Andreé as its messenger. You either like it and use it, at your own risk, or you don't. Simple as that. I have my own opinions and experiences but I fly no flags for anybody.

Sorry for the long wind. This isn't even an introduction to Mr. Andreé's work but something was needed as a background. Without further ado, here are the links:


I hope you'll enjoy them and, indeed, find them useful in your consultations.

Cheers,
 
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arabella

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What a Gift

Sparhawk, I am speechless. What an incredible gift. How can anyone thank you for this amazing labour of love? XO Arabella
 
M

maremaria

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thank you very much for sharing !!!
Very generous of you.
:bows:
 

peter2610

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Thanks Luis,

This is absolutely fascinating, and very generous of you. I've got to ask: do you intend/are you working on a full translation of the entire text?
 

sparhawk

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Thanks Luis,

This is absolutely fascinating, and very generous of you. I've got to ask: do you intend/are you working on a full translation of the entire text?
:rofl: As they say, "no good deed goes unpunished"... Last night I sent Ricardo a message telling him of my "deed" (something he had no clue I was doing, BTW...), before publishing the translations. He was in fact very grateful and proposed me exactly that: "Would you please translate the whole book for me?"

It is certainly worthy of being translated. I can't promise anything (I run my own business and time is always on the side of "lacking") and that book would break your foot if it falls on it, but I'll consider it... :D

Who knows.
 
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hilary

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Wow - thank you. I'll move this to 'I Ching News' and make it a sticky.
 

sergio

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Gracias ,Luis!
I'll buy the book today.Thanks again!.
Sergio
 

lydiaeverst

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Awsome Resource for Newbies

Thank you so much Luis for the English translation and the sharing.
 

crystalstar

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Thanks for this timely post....translation amazing...provides some answers been looking for....as usual....stay enlightened Sparhawk....
 

pocossin

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In the "Times" part, the diagram of the Later Heaven Order of the trigrams contains calendar correspondences. For example, March 18 corresponds to Dui? Shouldn't the calendar correspondence be rotated 180 degrees? Or is this an adaptation to the southern hemisphere?
 

sparhawk

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In the "Times" part, the diagram of the Later Heaven Order of the trigrams contains calendar correspondences. For example, March 18 corresponds to Dui? Shouldn't the calendar correspondence be rotated 180 degrees? Or is this an adaptation to the southern hemisphere?
Because of the seasons, you mean? You are thinking with your Northern Hemisphere hat here... Further down that diagram is Andreé's explanation:
It is in this light that we must understand the circle: if in the designation of the rotation a year we find that it coincides with the cosmic spring and the weather season indicate the same month, this should not lead us to confusion. Obviously it is easier to explain to a South American that summer is in January than to a European that in that month is planning for snow. The same happens to places where the seasons are two and not very different among themselves, or even worse when it applies to a country with different climates in different regions due to its large size.
 

TwoGeese

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Thank you - advanced for me at this stage in my learning but very helpful- thank you for your gift of time and skills. :D
 

yen hui

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sparhawk

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Thank you for your post, Yan Hui.

Just curious about a couple things: First, does Ricardo use the English translation of Wilhelm's I Ching? Or has it been translated into Spanish as well? Second, is your translation of Section 31, on the 16 Laws, complete?
There's a direct German to Spanish version of the Wilhelm translation that has been published by Editorial Sudamericana since the mid-70's. I think they are up to the 30th edition by now as it sells as well as the Wilhelm/Baynes translation in English.

Can't remember (I have to check) if I finished the whole Section 31. I did translate though all that I found important. The original book in Spanish can be purchased here.
 

yen hui

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Natural law and the universal archetypes of the subconscious mind.

There's a direct German to Spanish version of the Wilhelm translation that has been published by Editorial Sudamericana since the mid-70's. I think they are up to the 30th edition by now as it sells as well as the Wilhelm/Baynes translation in English.
Looks like both hardcover and paperback editions are currently 'Out-Of-Print', since they're only available from private sellers on Amazon. Is there any way to find out how long they've been OOP? And if Editorial Sudamericana has any plans to reprint another edition?

Also, I was wondering if I could trouble you to give us a rough idea about the status of related I Ching literature and scholarship also currently available in Spanish? Might it be equal to, or greater than that which is currently available in English?

In that vein, may I also ask if Ricardo's research resources are well documented, in the book, and if it comes equipped with a complete bibliography of the related literature?

The original book in Spanish can be purchased here.
I'd really like to buy a copy of this book but don't speak Spanish yet. Is it possible that Ricardo might be open to corresponding in English, via private e-mail? Do you know if he has any intentions of publishing an electronic version of his book? Kindle perhaps?

Can't remember (I have to check) if I finished the whole Section 31. I did translate though all that I found important.
If Ricardo has written a full length Introduction to his book, I hope you will consider translating it, in it's entirety, as well; perhaps starting with whatever info or insight it may provide regarding Section 31, on the 16 Laws of the I Ching.

I would like to know why, for example, he appears to disregard the 64 hexagrams as natural laws in their own right, insofar as each are principles of nature and universal archetypes and categories in the subconscious mind (of humanity)?

There is an interesting essay, incidentally, on 'Natural Law in Classical Chinese Philosophy', published as an Appendix to a work entitled Natural Law Modernized, by David Braybrooke, part of which can be previewed in the online Google Archive.

Lastly, (but not least,) would you possibly consider also translating whatever Ricardo has written about Hex 31 - Hsien (Influence)?

Many thanks for your reply and very helpful info, btw. Very interesting! :bows:
 

sparhawk

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Hi Yen hui,

You are asking a lot of questions... If you are interested in a Spanish version of the Yijing I am sure you can find one, somewhere. As for Andree, I don't share his views regarding what the Yi is. He has created a religion, including ordained priests out of it. Please feel free to contact him directly, not sure about his command of English but he used to live in Europe for a few years as a reporter. The links to all his sites, including his blogs, are in his main site.

Regarding your question about the status of Yijing bibliography in Spanish, keep in mind that nothing, other than in Chinese, comes close to what's in English about it. English is the lingua franca of international scholarship. There are many works in Spanish, indeed, including odd balls like Andree, but the field is limited. And no, Andree has pulled most of what he published out his own mind as educated especulation. So, no much in the sense of bibliography. Also, he'd love for me to translate the whole thing in English and even asked me but I would not even consider it. The only reason I translated that portion is because his timing method has been applied to readings here over the years by a couple of Spanish speaking participants, especialy one that doesn't participate here any longer, and lots of people we're curious about it. His particular method appears to be somewhat accurate and is about one of the few things I find useful in his work. Whenever I feel the Yijing is a tool of christianity I might give Andree another type of consideration... :)

Sorry, I don't have the time to translate hexagram texts from his work.

L



Looks like both hardcover and paperback editions are currently 'Out-Of-Print', since they're only available from private sellers on Amazon. Is there any way to find out how long they've been OOP? And if Editorial Sudamericana has any plans to reprint another edition?

Also, I was wondering if I could trouble you to give us a rough idea about the status of related I Ching literature and scholarship also currently available in Spanish? Might it be equal to, or greater than that which is currently available in English?

In that vein, may I also ask if Ricardo's research resources are well documented, in the book, and if it comes equipped with a complete bibliography of the related literature?



I'd really like to buy a copy of this book but don't speak Spanish yet. Is it possible that Ricardo might be open to corresponding in English, via private e-mail? Do you know if he has any intentions of publishing an electronic version of his book? Kindle perhaps?



If Ricardo has written a full length Introduction to his book, I hope you will consider translating it, in it's entirety, as well; perhaps starting with whatever info or insight it may provide regarding Section 31, on the 16 Laws of the I Ching.

I would like to know why, for example, he appears to disregard the 64 hexagrams as natural laws in their own right, insofar as each are principles of nature and universal archetypes and categories in the subconscious mind (of humanity)?

There is an interesting essay, incidentally, on 'Natural Law in Classical Chinese Philosophy', published as an Appendix to a work entitled Natural Law Modernized, by David Braybrooke, part of which can be previewed in the online Google Archive.

Lastly, (but not least,) would you possibly consider also translating whatever Ricardo has written about Hex 31 - Hsien (Influence)?

Many thanks for your reply and very helpful info, btw. Very interesting! :bows:
 

yen hui

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Cool or just plain "kookie?"

You are asking a lot of questions... If you are interested in a Spanish version of the Yijing I am sure you can find one, somewhere.
You are quite correct, of course! What was I possibly thinking? :D

As for Andree, I don't share his views regarding what the Yi is.
Yes, I had gathered as much; and yet it also seemed to appear that something or some aspect of his "system" appealed to you, in some way, none-the-less. Wonder how I got that impression? :eek:

He has created a religion, including ordained priests out of it.
I didn't realize that, however, creating new religions comes easy to us Westerners. We do few things better, but the polar opposite exists in that same reality, where an equal or greater number of us are horrified by even the thought or mention of as much! it strikes a lot of us, these days, as just a little eccentric, if not outright "kookie," in a way, thanks to "snakes" like Jimmy Jones (of Guyana infamy).

The actual concept, however, isn't completely foreign to the Confucian practice of "ritual," to awaken and develop "higher nature," and the Confucian sense of "reverence." Reverence and ritual are essential elements of the good life, according to both Confucians and Buddhists anyway, the last time I checked.

Just so long as Ricardo doesn't try to place himself on some kind of pedestal, as the latest reincarnation of the new'n improved version of the Dalai Lama; or try to enslave his followers into some kind of hero worship of himself.

Got to give credit where credit is due, however. His devotion to the I Ching is entirely in accord with principle; which is a hard thing to knock (criticize), at best, imho.

Please feel free to contact him directly, not sure about his command of English but he used to live in Europe for a few years as a reporter. The links to all his sites, including his blogs, are in his main site.
Yes, I'll be sure to do that.

Regarding your question about the status of Yijing bibliography in Spanish, keep in mind that nothing, other than in Chinese, comes close to what's in English about it. English is the lingua franca of international scholarship. There are many works in Spanish, indeed, including odd balls like Andree, but the field is limited.
Well, exhausting 30 print editions of the Wilhelm version of the IC, in less than 4 decades, is no mean feat of accomplishment, imo. I have to wonder if the English translation even sold nearly as well? So if the available literature in Spanish is currently limited, it appears that it won't be for long. It may take a couple more decades for them to catch-up, but catch-up they will.

And no, Andree has pulled most of what he published out his own mind as educated especulation. So, no much in the sense of bibliography. Also, he'd love for me to translate the whole thing in English and even asked me but I would not even consider it.
And yet it did seem you hadn't entirely ruled out the possibility of making some more limited or selected translations of his work, but fair enough. What you've done so far is still greatly appreciated.

The only reason I translated that portion is because his timing method has been applied to readings here over the years by a couple of Spanish speaking participants, especialy one that doesn't participate here any longer, and lots of people we're curious about it.
Okay, good, let's approach the discussion from this perspective (or angle), then. What is the relevancy of Section 31, (of Part 1,) on the 16 Laws, to "his timing method?" Not to be antagonistic, or anything, but was the translation of that particular section really necessary to our understanding how "his timing method" actually worked? :confused:

His particular method appears to be somewhat accurate and is about one of the few things I find useful in his work.
See :eek: see :eek: I did see :eek: a "puddy cat" after all! :D (It's a reference to a line from a cartoon popular in the 70's!) What I mean is that's exactly what I meant: I knew you liked something about it! Just couldn't put my thumb precisely on it, 'til just now! :bows:

Whenever I feel the Yijing is a tool of christianity I might give Andree another type of consideration...
Now, there's an intriguing thought! Care to elaborate further on it? :D
 

sparhawk

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Well, it's been two years since I posted that translation and it took me quite a while to actually sit down and do it, before that. In the meantime, I have changed my attitude towards the whole idea of translating his work any further. I have it; can read it if I wish to, but no more free time dedicated to it for the time being. And no, having a 99% certainty I will not do it isn't the same as having a 1% that I will... :D

The actual concept, however, isn't completely foreign to the Confucian practice of "ritual," to awaken and develop "higher nature," and the Confucian sense of "reverence." Reverence and ritual are essential elements of the good life, according to both Confucians and Buddhists anyway, the last time I checked.
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Got to give credit where credit is due, however. His devotion to the I Ching is entirely in accord with principle; which is a hard thing to knock (criticize), at best, imho.
So, am I guessing correctly that you are in the quarter of those anthropomorphizing, ritualizing and dogmatizing the Yijing? You and a lot of other people, including major religions, have placed such importance to ritual and veneration. Personally, I don't place virtue on ritual nor I venerate the Yijing for more than what it was in its origin: A divination manual. Homo Sapiens (no, I'm not an alien entity looking in... :cool:) have a tendency to erect a lot of scaffolding around most everything. I've traveled many times to China, Hong Kong and Singapore and I have always marveled, even to this day, at the way they use bamboo scaffolding in the building of skyscrapers. Like giant wooden cocoons, all the way up a building. Well, all that is meant to be peeled out of it once the building is finished. Those studying the Yijing and are attracted to ritual and veneration should try to pay more attention to the building and not to the bamboo scaffolding around it...

When you say "His devotion to the I Ching is entirely in accord with principle; which is a hard thing to knock (criticize), at best" I must ask: whose principles are you talking about? The only one I gather are his own principles. Certainly not mine. Nor --I'd boldly bet some money on it-- the principles of those outside his particular belief circle. IMHO, it is a bad idea to paint ourselves into a corner of ritual, dogma and veneration. But that's me, of course... :D

Well, exhausting 30 print editions of the Wilhelm version of the IC, in less than 4 decades, is no mean feat of accomplishment, imo. I have to wonder if the English translation even sold nearly as well? So if the available literature in Spanish is currently limited, it appears that it won't be for long. It may take a couple more decades for them to catch-up, but catch-up they will.
Do you live in the USA? If you do, I have fun exercise for you: go to the nearest Hispanic grocery store and get yourself a couple of those free news magazines that are usually near the exit door and read the classified ads... Then compare that experience with similar newspapers in English. Sure, I didn't say the field was barren, I meant to say that most of what it is out there (the same as in popular, mass market, books on the "I Ching" in English) is rubbish. With good exceptions, of course, but still much less "good/respectable stuff" than in English.


And yet it did seem you hadn't entirely ruled out the possibility of making some more limited or selected translations of his work, but fair enough. What you've done so far is still greatly appreciated.
Read above. Time passes. Minds change. Hey, there's that 1% chance... No, wait! :rofl:


Okay, good, let's approach the discussion from this perspective (or angle), then. What is the relevancy of Section 31, (of Part 1,) on the 16 Laws, to "his timing method?" Not to be antagonistic, or anything, but was the translation of that particular section really necessary to our understanding how "his timing method" actually worked? :confused:
Yes, IMO it was necessary because of context. His timing method refers to the "Laws" and I didn't want to translate just the method and leave Andree's personal context out of it because, days or years later (ahem...) I would be questioned about them. It appears such a tactic didn't work that well... :D

Mind you, and this goes for Andree also, if ever reads this, I respect his approach (and anyone's particular approach) to the Yijing for what it is: His very own personal path, with the strong caveat that it isn't mine nor I am obliged to partake in it. Furthermore, I've been on record here, for many years, that I don't, nor I have, agreed with Andree's approach to the study of the Yijing.


Now, there's an intriguing thought! Care to elaborate further on it? :D
Brush your Spanish, or try English, if you wish, and ask the man himself. :D

Also, another thing I've been on record here, for all those same years: I don't engage in serious discussions on the Yijing with anonymous people. I'd like to place a real person behind a forum handle. Mine is Sparhawk but everyone here knows I am "Luis Andrade from New Jersey by way of Montevideo, Uruguay." Nice meeting you, Yen Hui, also known in real life as:_________________ ??
 

mary f

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Thank you for the amazing and very well done work. You're an admirable personality Luis.
M.
 

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