Timing...

[frank]

Hi All, and especially Jesed.

I asked the Yi a question about a friendship with someone and why she has not responded yet. I received 49, lines 2 & 6 changing to 1. I know things have changed, are changing or should be changed, and things are so different than some months ago already, and I have difficulties in letting go. That's my part, BUT I asked why SHE did not respond yet... Acording to the text of the images hexagram 49 is about "calculating the heavenly signs and making clear time"... I was wandering if Jesed, because he seems to be an 'expert' in this method, could actually 'calculate the heavenly signs and make clear time", for me... What does 49, lines 2 & 6 towards Hex. 1 tell me in the 'traditional way'.

Thanx in advance,

Hug.
Frank

 

[jesed]

Hi Frank

Just in case the commentarie could be useful

You made 2 questions in one

a) Diagnosis of the relationship (general question)
b) Why she has not responded yet (particular question)

a) About the general question:
After a Time of stability (48), radical changes arrive. Don?t be afraid of that. Great divergences between you and her
But even radical changes have it's own unchanging rules: if you mastering that's rules, then you can antincipate the external changes.

b) About particular question
When little reforms aren't enough to save the relationship, a radical change is needed (line 2); vulgar persons make only superfitial changes, and the noble don't force them for more (line 6)

Seems there are disagreements between you and her; she is expecting you do great reforms to save the relationship, but think you are making only superficial changes. So, she is waiting.


About time
The Time ruling your relationship is ALL in the past
The Sign of Revolution in your relationship started some day between December 16, 2004 and Feb 1st 2005
The Sign was settle some day between March 16 and May 1st
Even if this is about something that is alredy PAST, is still ruling the relatiionship. You need to do a radical change to get the relationship free from past disharmonies.

It would be useful for you to remember what kind of divergences started in first month of this year in your relationship, and consolidated en spring; and change wath you need to change to put them where they belong: in the past

Best wishes

 

[frank]

Hi Jesed,

Thank you very much for you answer. I was hoping for a more positive outcome, but I guess by reading that things are already all in the past, that she does not respond because she already changed her way of behaving towards me, which causes me regret, pain and anger at the same time, and in one way still some hope of restarting the bond we had as close friends (not loved ones, as she has a boyfriend, but I do miss her as a friend...).

I felt in love with her, that brought tensions to the friendship ofcourse, she used me for projects although she knew I was crazy about her (and I let it happen, as I wanted to be around, as we had a project together... hoping for the better, against better knowing, she used my 'aroundness' to get lose of an earlier afair she had, etc... A lot, very unique, wonderfull, intens things happened and that still leaves my heart in that period in the past, where she already told me that she moved on... I also want to move on, but still desire her, where she lives together with her boyfriend... So yes, do not give me the 'aha', the 'ok's', the 'i told ya...' etc, because the change (49) is all in that I guess... But in one way I was hoping for a future-timing and certainly not some that is already all in the past (darn :-D). Mmm, I guess I know what I have to do now... (a lot...)

Besides... Some weeks ago I asked the Yi after she sended me an email after she arived back from her holiday, what the best next step for me to do towards her, was Hexagram 55, line 5, changing into 49... I guess it's 'revelution time' for me.
Keeps me thinking to what kind of stuff from me she is waiting for, as you told in your post... Action towards her? Why should I, as she has a boyfriend... Looking at 55 I guess I have to act possitive, and not angry, which I realy was, and to some extend still am, as I'm hurt for the things said and done. She realy hurted me for using me, giving opinions on things in a laugh to issuess that where important to me, and the use of my honesty in telling her that I loved her while I knew she did not love me, she told me everything about her life, which I loved deeply first, but eversince the time of being in love those issues became to emotional for me, and now I do not hear a thing... which I miss... I feel very doubled feelings in all of this... Mmm, but still, I guess I have to take up my chin-up high, sigh and cry the hurts out, getting the trust back, and move on, which would be a hell of a revelution for me... :-D. (she did not respond yet to the mail I sended her after she mailed me that mail after her holiday, and that made me ask this question...)

Thank you again very much, Jesed...

Hug,
Frank

 

[frank]

And ofcourse, when someone feels hurt, he hurts back, so I'm feeling hurt, but I'm to blame as well... Darn, dose them bonds, relationships, needs, desires, jealousies, friendships, and what else...

 

[jesed]

Hi Frank

Just incase the commetarie could be useful

A) You HAD a close relationship with her, sounds like she "allows" your romantic intentions for a while; now she doesn't alow those intentions anymore. If this is the case, maybe she is waiting for you to change your romantic aproach to her.

B)You HAD a close relationship with her. Then, you STARTED to feel angry against her for not respond to your romantic intentions (and you are angry until now). She is waiting for you to change the angry against her.

I would recomend 2 questions, in this order: a) what is my real attitude related to X?; then b) what should be my correct attitude related to X.

After this inner exercise, ask: please show me with one hexagram the future image of my relationship with X within next six months


Best wishes

 

[jesed]

o.. I forgot:

there is one important thing: yes, the facts that influence the Time are in the past; but they are ruling your present (and will be... until you make the change needed)

 

[frank]

Hi Jesed,

I have had written a whole page of a post to send up here, as then I received an 'error' and the whole thing went blank... gone...

I'm not in the mood to write it again (more anger :-D), but at least in that post I dealed with the two questions you asked, and I realised it's about the hurt and the anger, and to let that go... She is not in the leading role here, as much as she wants it to... so she can wait for hours if that's the case... We are equal people... As you right it down, it sounds like I'm the only one to blame here, which deffinitly is not the case... I'm the one who takes the responsibility to talk about it in the open area of this site, taking percousions for what to say and all...And guess what... I asked the question about the future image for the next six months and I received hexagram 13, line 2, towards 1... So after 55 > 49 (line 5), 49 > 1 (lines 2 & 6), now we have 13 > 1 (line 2)... Equal people...

I realise I take responsibilty to things I do not even have to take it for... and I'm even prepared to let her be the leading part as I'm not angry in mail I've sended her weeks ago, and the only things she does is talking about her holiday she came back from... still asking how I'm doing, but then not responding to what I sended her... (that's the reason for asking the question about 'timing' in the first place...!)

But I should be reading and analysing the Hexagram 13 now... Darn... By reading that I also realise my ego is in need... Darn...

Hug,
Frank

 

[frank]

Hi Jesed, and others...

By reading 13, line 2 in different books I realise I will stop here, because the case does not deserve to be in the open like this... Maybe she is actualy waiting untill I stop to put it all in the open so much... Mmm, and it will not stop for the next six months then... Auch... I have a lot of work to do...

Hug,
Frank

 

[frank]

And still... Darn those doubled feelings... toubts, etc...

 

[frank]

And still again... I feel sad... Is there something positive to tell about this? I read a lot about ' letting go' and 'patience'.... So, yes, I will have more patience... That's the least thing I can do, and keep myself busy in other things... is there something more to add to Hexagram 13, line 2, besides the regrets at the shrine in the temple of the ansestors... (things from the past...)?

Sorry if I get to emotional in this...

Hug,
Frank

 

[peace]

Hi Frank:

Sorry you're hurting - but there are lessons here.

49 - revolution

You did set it up to be hurt by knowing she didn't return your feelings. Since she told you the truth, she was able to assume you were able to make your own choice about how you wanted to relate to her.

You continued in the relationship - learning more about her, helping her, etc.
She had no reason NOT to allow that as she was honest about her feelings. She liked you enough as a friend to spend time and share with you.

49 leading to 1 - you will have great strength if you let go of this pattern.

You have mentioned in other postings that you have not had great luck with women.
I don't mean to be harsh - but you set this one up.
I am being blunt about this because it is probably time (based on 49) for you to have a revolution and ditch this pattern.

It keeps you stuck. It keeps you feeling used by women -

--------------------
"....I felt in love with her, that brought tensions to the friendship ofcourse, she used me for projects although she knew I was crazy about her (and I let it happen, as I wanted to be around, as we had a project together... hoping for the better, against better knowing, she used my 'aroundness' to get lose of an earlier afair she had "

--------------
I really don't believe she "used" you.
You may want to think back to how often you have been around this mountain - and stop investing yourself in situations that you know from the start will not result in what you want.

I truly believe (and so does your reading) that this is a great opportunity for you to break this pattern.

All the best,
Rosalie

 

[frank]

Hi Rosalie,

Thank you very much for your words, and there is ofcourse some truth in your words, although I do not want to 'hear' them :-D. I know for shure that I have been used, but perhaps it was not mented to, and I let it happen to much. It's way of looking at the whole situation that needs a 'revelution' and indeed that could deal with my experiences I had earlier with women. My responsibility is in the fact that I let this happen and I bring it up, yes, I do recognise that, and I brought it up, because I can't stand to have not someone beside me. Now I know this 'revelution' has to deal with that as well, as I need to learn that I'm a great person on my own, despite the fact that everyone on this planet probably has the talent to have someone else on there side, get kids with them and divorce again, because of so many differences... I do not have any experience in having a long lasting, loving relationship and it kills me.

There is a lot to be done, but why do I feel that I'm to blame here? I'm starting to become afraid of missing the oportunity to finaly have a wife, children, and understanding on how relationships work, as probably I must be a hell of a genius to tell so many times things to others here acording to this subject and hear that I 'hit the jackpot' over and over again, and within my own life I make a mess of it? Geee.... I'm realy confuced because of all of this, as this is realy a 'blindspot' and I'm realy afraid of not having a relationship, getting old alone, and it is not fair! (o man, do you hear my inner child cry :-D?). I know I'm always open here, within this side and reading your post makes open my eyes that ofcourse she (the other lady in this case) was right about her honest feelings... but that does not mean, not for a minut, that she handled so 'correctly'... And I know that I'm pretty much more to blame then I thought then... Wauw... That hurts... I have to give these answers some thought, and you are right about this opportunity, otherwise the Yi would not bring up 49 all the time...

There is so much more in this case, which is related to other cases as long as I, myself, am the 'binding' factor that I will not tell, but I do recognise it for other parts in my life as well. It's a patorn. I'm busy for years already, over and over to get even with all that, acceptance and all, and I am comming close to leave it all behind, get independend from everyone, and live my life... Now I know I have to deal with all of this in a total other manner as I have done, and it costs me friendships and love... I do hope it at least bring something...

Thank you Peace / Rosalie,

Hug,
Frank

 

[frank]

What about the 'traditional' aproach (time and all) for hexagram 13, line 2, Jesed?

 

[frank]

Hi all,

OK, by staying out of feedback I guess this issue is for me only then. I shall read the answers given over and over again so things come in deeply and I will understand what you guys have been sending to me. Thank you Rosalie and Jesed (and Freddy on the other post about Limitation, for the relativity with humor, it's good to eat and take a breath, yes :-D). I'm still very confused, though. I need time, and will take some. I analyse these answers and the received answers of the Yi further, but also let time do it's work, as I believe it is all a matter of just that...

To make just a sum up, I guess it could be all about this:
1. Best next step towards X? 55 > 49 (line 5)
"Try to stay possitive, not angry, love yourself and change with the situation'; go with it..."

2. Why has X not responded yet?> 49 > 1 (lines 2 and 6)
"Change attitude, give anger a place, and let the past be the past, and move on, by not taking steps to drasticly, but DO make them..."
AND STILL THE QUESTION WAS: "WHY x HAS NOT RESPONDED YET..." so I guess X = Changed...

3. "Please show me with one hexagram the future image of my relationship with X within next six months" 13 > 1 (line 2)
"Take care of the past, let it go and try to find something mutual to do together, but do work on things happend in the past, because there is something that keeps you stuck... (and a dutch writter even speaks of 'shame for a long time'...)

4. "What kind of 'radical' change do I have to deal with?" 60 (stable, no changing lines)
"Things are limited right know... focus on things changed, and within time learn to deal with borders"

5. A new question: "What's, now I know all of this, the best thing to do towards X (some kind of repeating question 1, yes, but I have more input...)" 25 (static, no changing lines...)
"Stay who you are, let go of expectations and let time do the job..."

Thank you all for helping and reading.

Hug,
Frank

 

[rosada]

Dear Frank,

I thought I'd try responding to your posts...

Your first question - Best next step?
I see your answer, 55.5>1, as encouragement to bring your questions here to the I Ching board.

Line 5 says "The ruler is modest and therefore open to counsel of able men. Thus he is surrounded by men who suggest to himl the lines of action."

That's us! We're here for you!

Your second question, "Why have I not heard from X?" 49.2.6>1 Yeah, I think you're right, it's pretty clearly stating she's changed her feelings about the relationship with you. I don't agree with all the suggestions that she wants you to wait or that you should try this or that. Line two says this change is what she wants and line 6 suggests she wants the change total down to the the last freckle, as in no desire to even be friends. 1 in this case suggests a brand new start.

Question number 3 is a wise one, you ask what your relationship will look like in 6 months. I don't always believe the I Ching's predictions for the future, or rather my interpretations of it, but I do think it can tell us what our attitude in the moment ABOUT the futhure would most helpfully be. With 13.2>1 Seems like the I Ching is guiding you to assume your friendship with this woman is not going to be reactivated, that you will be in separate clans, and again the encouragement to start life anew with the Hexagram 1.

Your fourth question, what kind of radical change do I have to deal with? answered by 60 Limitation, seems to be noting the boundries set up between the two of you now. Perhaps it is also giving you encouragement to set some boundries around your own thinking, so as to limit being drained by all this (60. Limitation, follows 59. Dispersing, as in putting up limits to Dispersing.)

Your answer to question 5 is fabulous! What is the best thing to do towards X?
25 says have an Atitude of Innocence. No blame, no regrets, she is Innocent and so are you!

Hey, if the I Ching is indeed telling you to take wise counsel from those around you, my advice is to rent the movie Swingers. It's an oldie but a goodie and just may raise your sprits.

Best wishes,
Rosada

 

[jesed]

Hi Frank

About 13.2

a) A picture of non-exclusived friendship. So, if you drop your romantic intentions, there could return friendship; if you persist in a exclusive relationship, you'll find humilliation

b) The time goes from December 2005 to June 2006

Best wishes

 

[rosada]

Hi Jesed,

Your interpretation of 13.2 makes much more sence than mine did - You point out that it says an exclusive relationship (or the desire to create one?) leads to humiliation. ( I was seeing it that people continue to exclude each other.) However, how do you get that if he drops romantic intentions there could be a return to friendship? That may be possible, but I don't see how this hexagram combo, 13.2>1, would indicate this. Perhaps by dropping his intentions to be exclusive (13.2) he would have a chance to start fresh IN LIFE (1), but I think we're reading too much into this hexagram to say it portends friendship or any relationship with X.

my2cents,
Rosada

 

[jesed]

Hi Rosanda

One needs to have a right understanding of the relationship between the general and the specific aspects of an answer.

The Chnaging Lines point to an particular aspect of the General aspect. So, each particular line should be contrast face to General Time of the Hexagram. So, you can see if that particular line is acting like the Time or agasint the Time. Is acting like Time, fortune; if acting agaisnt Time, pitfall.

Now, if you are acting agaisnt Time, and you stop that and start to act like Time, pitfall evolve to good fortune. (And this is the best use of I Ching)

In Frank's case: The General aspect of 13 is friendship; the particular aspect is "your intention of exclusive relationship lead to humiliation"

If Frank stops acting agaist the Time of non-exclusive friendship, friendship could came.

Best wishes

 

[frank]

Hi Rosanda,

Thank you very much for your post, and you dived into the whole 5 questions indeed... wow :-D.

To get into your post:
1. At the first question you relate 55/5 to 1... But it was 55/5 to 49... Still the 5th line speakes of helpers indeed and by getting support I could find strengh to change... And this board is one of those helping hands indeed. Still... the QUESTION was about best next step TOWARDS X... (and then the answer could be... find helpers and feel proud of what you did and change the attitude towards x... something like that.)

2. About your words on the second question I think she changed yes, but the latest mail I received from her was about 3 weeks ago and she just talked a few words about returning from her holiday and ended the mail with 'and how are things with you?... Greetings...'. Then I sended a mail back (and a smaller one last week, about 'that I'm just curious about her doings and that I doubt about mailing or calling'), and I'm very in the mood to call or put up another mail, but I wait now... For I received all these 'messages'... I do not know for shure if Hexagram 1 is all about a new life, I do hope it's just about a new friendship, but then again, what is the friendship worth to both of us if I can't get what I want and she wants something else... And because of all the things happend I doubt about continuation. I feel very confused because my head says something, and my heart says something else... and to be honest (as I'm always to so many people around here...:-D) some other bodypart tells me even another thing.... (perhaps that is also the 'revelution' as the nuclear of 49 = 44...)

3. And yep, I'm getting sad when I read this, but line 2 of 13 is a straight answer... I haven't interpreted as 'general' and 'exclusive' though.. so yes, I do recognise this very much. It's a painfull truth to realise that we both acted differently then the intentions would say... She even told me some weeks ago that I have to realise that the period in the past (december 2004 / july 2005) was a 'unique' period... Yes, it was so unique, that even we had arguments, ands even there where tensions, and we saw the friendship explode (and don't think we talked about this, we did :-D), I till this day wanted to continuu... But now I realise the past is the past, let the romance filled in by some other lady, and let time fill in what the friendship will be... (something like that).

4. About the fourth question (60, static > Limitation) it's a very nice suggestion to read that I have to limit my thoughts about all this, because that is so true :-D! And a hell of a revelution :-D... (49)

5. And the last one (25 static > Innocence), is also about using your intu?tion (I read that somewhere in a dutch I Chingbook), so the best step now is to be myself, revelutionise the attitude and the way I feel and think about all this and by using my (great) intu?tion, I should figure out how to deal with all of this.

And I will keep on talking to people about all this (dear friends and all), because talking helps to get through 'mourning'...

I know I will get through this... Thank you very much Rosanda.

Hug
Frank

 

[frank]

Hi Jesed,

Thank you very much for your answer, and the time (december 2005 / june 2006) will bring clarity indeed (to use some words Rosalie has said)... I somehow hope that you are wrong, but something inside me is afraid you're not :-D...

Thank you again,

Hug
Frank

 

[frank]

Hi all,

I read something about hexagram 25 in the meanwhile... I have to translate it into english, because it's the dutch translation of the I Ching for Lovers by Stephen Karcher...

He writes a commentary on hexagram 25:
"Don't get entangled. Whatever you do, do not let yourself in with disorder, forse and vanity. If you can liberate yourself from your anger, lust and feelings of revenge, you can act spontaniously and selfsecured, and the 'relatioship' could grow. Work on it. It will bring you what you want. Without selfimprovement you would make the same mistakes again and again. Let yourself be inspired by the ghost of Heaven. Move along, step by step and succes and love will be your part. If you and your friend (x) entangle yourselfs in this emotional mess, how could you do any good then?"

Seems like a sum up of all the questions asked... Phew... :-D.

Hug to all of you, and thanks again
Frank

 

[rosada]

Dear Jesed,

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain to me not only line 13.2 but what it means when a change line seems to suggest the opposite of the hexagram. This makes a differance in my understanding of the whole book!

I rethink my original take on this line to now be, "exclusive or personal friendships undermine the group" with the idea that by not pursuing a "special" friendship there re-emerges a sence of being one of the group.

Dear Frank,
Thank you for the feed back on my comments and for your willingness to share your experience. I've learned a lot.

Rosada

 

[cal val]

Hi Rosada...

"exclusive or personal friendships undermine the group"

I like that. That's my take on 13.2 as well. Forming cliques creates problems more for the folks forming them than for the folks they believe they're protecting themselves from by forming them.

Better to work through any misunderstandings and try to achieve unity... I think.

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Frank...

*hug*

Love,

Val

 

[frank]

Thank you Val...

 

[frank]

Hi Guys,

Just to let you know that I asked the Yi about in what kind of situation I would drop myself into if I should call her, and I received 41, line 2 (again... I receive a lot of line 2?s lately), towards 27... I think it?s a matter of letting go the romantic feelings first before realy feeling myself strong enough to hear her voice or something. Damn, that I I be so much busy with this...

And an hour or so ago, I mailed her, only to say that it?s a pitty that I do not hear anything, and how she?s doing... Mmm, I realy should move on now...

See ya.
Frank