To reincarnate or not to reincarnate...that is the question

[cal val]

Gene and Davidl just brought up an interesting subject in another thread...

Reincarnation and karma

The thread was getting too long for dial-up and besides I believe this is the most appropriate room for this kind of discussion.

I don't have any preconceived notions on the subject, but I think it's a fascinating concept, and I would love to hear some experiences...feelings...thoughts on the subject.

THANKS!

Val

 

[cal val]

Oooops...

I forgot something very important. When I asked the Yi if we reincarnate, they answered...

50/1.5 to 1 WOW!

 

[gene]

Hi Val

hexagram 50 again, eh. Just can't get away from that one, can you?

The fate hexagram. I suppose that is a good answer. I am willing to discuss reincarnation and karma, but will not get into a debate about it, because to me there is no question about it, with me it is not a theory, it is absolute fact. I know that won't mean anything to anyone else.

I suppose hexagram 50 is appropriate, for it says, "consolidates his fate, (karma) by making his position correct."

In the Torah we have the succession of sons, from Abraham we have Isaac and Ishmael, who ended up at war with each other, and the descendents of each are still at war with each other, then we have Jacob and Esau, at war with each other as their descendents still are, then we have Joseph and his brothers, in one sense representing the twelve tribes. Joseph's brothers were envious of him and tried to do away with him, but here the plot thickens, for, for the first time, one brother actually forgives the other, and we have to a certain extent, the ceasing of war. At least in this scenario. Joseph still goes through a battle with his brothers though, at the end of which they were forgiven. Here we have three generations, (three incarnations) The sins of the father, Abraham, are visited on the children, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph, to the second and third generation. (Joseph's generation) At which time forgiveness ends the string of karma from incarnation to reincarnation. I know this too won't convince anyone, but there is a lot going on in the Torah that is beneath the surface, and I sure wish I had a grasp on some of its deeper meanings. The early Christian church of course, was originally more gnostic in its nature. Even Paul said "which things are an allegory." Later, as the more orthodox wing of the church gained power, they rebutted any attempts at metaphysics, and at the council of nicea, and/or other early councils, once the Romans had infiltrated the church, the church voted on certain doctrines. In every case in which the vote went against the orthodox church, the power of Rome removed the offending Bishops and revoted. The net result that was only the literal interpretation of scripture was allowed. Thus ended any allegorical meanings. And the Jews, knowing that there were deeper meanings, scoffed at the church ever since. Along with the doctrines that did not agree with Rome, out the door went the doctrine of reincarnation, of karma, for if these views flourished, people would think they have other lifetimes to follow the church and get saved, and no Roman ruler wanted anyone thinking they might have another opportunity.

Gene

 

[davidl]

I would like to add to this thread with an 'experience' that may be of interest.
As a teenager I was interested in the concept of past lives and a friend gave me the details of a hypnotherapist that did 'past life' regressions.
I thought this may be fun and booked in for a session. When I got there the therapist told me that it may take a couple of sessions to get into it so not to expect too much on the day. Anyway we started and it turns out I was a very good hypnotic subject.
I immediately saw myself (as someone else) and with the therapists help, moved backward thru a series of lives. In each life I touched on the key events and the moment of death. All this was taped and I left the clinic a bit stunned but no wiser as to whether these were my past lives or purely my imagination.
About six months later I was at a family function and my uncle had just returned from overseas. While he was away he had searched out our family tree.
As a teenager this all was of little interest to me until they all sat around and started to go back over the generations. The documents went back to when the family was expelled from Spain in 1492.
To my amazement there was a direct correlation between my family tree and the past lives I had taped
that day at the hypnotherapist. Not just similiar but life for life was represented on those geneology documents. I had no knowledge of the family tree before the hypnotherapy session.
Is this a case of tapping into genetic memory of some kind or has my soul lived here before as my past relative ?
I just thought I would throw this 'experience' into the thread for comment.
I will add more later when time allows

Gene,
I would like to discuss your comments later also.

 

[martin]

In my mind hexagram 50 is associated with healing and alchemy.
50 to 1 could perhaps also indicate death & rebirth in this life.

About reincarnation, I like the way Seth sees it: we are living all these lives NOW!

Martin

 

[hilary]

50 and 1 - wow.

I associate 1 with the spirit that endures beyond incarnation. This is the hexagram I received just before my father died, and I realised within hours what it meant - one of those rare occasions of knowing beyond a shadow of doubt.

50 is the Vessel for transformation, the place where liquid metal is cast into solid form, or destiny literally 'sets' solid (from the Image). So it looks as though the formless eternal life 'crystallises out' into the destiny (or mandate) of a single lifetime.

Reincarnation? I still don't know. Line 1, though... turning the Vessel upside down to get the blockage out, doing whatever is necessary to continue the family line. Pointing to Great Possession, or There is Greatness. The idea of emptying the vessel out in order to start afresh and be able to continue on a larger scale... Could this also have a message about karma?

Martin, who is Seth? I came to the realisation myself that 'reincarnation' really only makes sense as 'simultaneous incarnation'. What else does/did he say about this?

 

[hilary]

P.S. Val, this thread isn't off-topic at all! You're off-off-topic! Tut!

 

[martin]

Seth said about himself that he was a "disembodied personality".
He spoke - and wrote books - through his medium Jane Roberts and he has said many very interesting things about the human psyche and its potential.
His books (and also the books that Jane has written "as herself") are fascinating.

Unfortunately, the so called "Seth material" has often degenerated into a simplistic I-create-my-own-reality cult and if you do a Google on the web (seth + "jane roberts") you will probably find a lot of rubbish.

I will not try to explain Seth's views. It's way to complicated.
Please visit a bookstore or a library if you want to know more.

Martin

 

[davidl]

Jane Roberts is one of my favourite authors. In particular
'Oversoul Seven and the Museum of Time' and 'Aspect Psychology' are brilliant. Here ability with the 'oversoul seven' series to explain non- linear time is classic.

 

[dharma]

I don't know enough on the subject of reincarnation to talk in depth about it but I most definitely trust in its reality.

Since time doesn't exist, except as an illusion in our experience of this dimension, then I too believe that all lifetimes must be/are occuring simultaneously.

Also, all of Jane Roberts'/Seth's books, are in my opinion, outstanding classics. They are, by far, the most important material/works I've ever immersed myself in. I, too, highly recommend them.

Dharma

 

[malka]

Taking me back to the 80's...yes, I'm a Seth fan also. Some fascinating informaiton, and a good intro to quantum physics and systems theory as well.

David, I also did a past life hypnotic regression about 15 years ago. When the therapist took me back to the time I was in the womb in this incarnation (just before taking me back to a past life) I felt and heard very specific thoughts my mom was having as she was involved in a certain activity, and I also could also smell something very distinctive. Months later I asked my mom about it -- we had never discussed the event but everything I experienced in my regression she told me was true.

About reincarnation in the Torah - it is definiately there, and Judaism is clear there is reincarnaiton. It's all over the Kabbalah, the Talmud and the Torah. However, the story Gene writes about above reflect his own thoughts and aren't reflective of the generally accepted Jewish view of Abraham, Issac and Jacob at all. I know he's no longer on the forum in which to respond, so I won't offer anything further.

An itneresting thing about the Torah many don't realize: Torah as "given from G-d" was written with consonates only. There are no vowels in the words of the Torah. Think about the implication of this even in English: If I wrote the word "rd" how would you know if I meant "red" or "ride" or "road" or "rude"? You wouldn't know for sure. It would all depend upon your knowledge of English and the possibilities of the language, upon your understanding of the other words that surround that word, etc. The Jewish view is that G-d gave us the structure (the constonates) but left the interpretation to us in our own time. Because G-d views life as a partnership between G-d and G-d's people, so we are both needed in order to make the Torah come alive. (There are all kinds of other mystical stuff in this, such as, in order to pronounce vowels requires use of the breath, and the word for breath in Hebrew "ruach" also means "spirit" etc...) It also means that there are simply words that have more than one possible meaning in a sentence, and so imply that (kinda like nuclear hexagrams!) the root of another meaning is impedded in words that on the surface alone have a different meaning. In my simplistic English example above, the color "red" would also contain the quality of "rude(ness)" about it, but may also be an opporutnity such as that relfective of a "road." As you can see, reading the Torah is just like the process of interpreting the meaning of the I Ching! I think it's easy to see how when the Torah was first translated from Hebrew into Greek, and from there into English and other languages as the "Old Testement," how much richness, subtlty, and original meaning was lost.

Another anology for our UK friends: editors have altered the original meaning of Shakespeare's words terribly, but innocently. It's only with a copy of the First Folio do we hope to know which old English word Shakespeare had used, and what the stage directions and breath breaks (which he impedded into his punctuation!) and word, and sound emphasis Shakespeare intended in performance. A modern day editor "corrects" the punctuation and updates the Englilsh only to leave us with the essential meaning of Shakespeare's characters and stories, but without the richness, subtly and vitality that was originally there.

I've had a wave of feeling that I'm sharing too much about Judaism on this forum. Don't want it to turn into that...my sharing does help me clarify and understand my own views, so thanks for the opportunity. But I'lll stop now...

 

[malka]

Dharma,

I was in NYC recently and there is a WONDERFUL exhibit at the Museum of Natural History about the life and work of Albert Einstein. I had the opporutnity to learn so much more about his theories, discoveries, and their implication for our understandning of the world.

Apparently, according to a scientific viewpoint, Einstein's work "proves" that there is no absolute time. In other words, it's not that time is an illution, (time does exist) however, time moves at a different rate for each of us, and different at different times. This means that my present might be your past, and it's all happening right now. When we feel like the day has gone by quickly...it probably has! This is all how time exists on many dimensions simultansiously, and you may be reading this now but I may have written it in your future.

Of course, I have totally over-simplified this to a level in which I can grasp it, and I know I've lost much in the translation. Still, I thought it was interesting enough to share!

 

[martin]

Over-simplified or not, Malka, there is a lot of Seth in your Einstein and a future Einstein might very well agree with what you say!

Martin

 

[heylise]

Loved your mail, Malka, and don't stop writing about Judaism. This is the open space, anyone can write here about (almost) anything.

I learned a lot this morning about the Torah. The words are like Chinese characters, and I fell completely in love with their wide range of meanings. You gave me a whole new view on Jewish books.


LiSe

 

[dharma]

Time is relative within this dimension - but in the greater/grander scheme of things, it does not exist at all.

"The present is the child of the past; the future, the begotten of the present. And yet, O present moment! Knowest thou not that thou hast no parent, nor canst thou have a child; that thou art ever begetting but thyself? Before thou hast even begun to say "I am the progeny of the departed moment, the child of the past," thou hast become that past itself. Before thou utterest the last syllable, behold! thou art no more the present but verily that future. Thus, are the past, the present, and the future, the ever-living trinity in One - the Mahamaya of the Absolute Is." (The Secret Doctrine, II, 446)

The above gives us the metaphysical key to solve our problem: Behind time, lies Eternity. Time belongs to the world of conditioned existence, the world of constant change. It begins at any given moment in reference to a particular event or a particular phenomenon. But behind that beginning, Time which is infinite and measureless already was because it ever is. Thus, conditioned time, which can be measured, which begins and ends, arises out of Timelessness or Eternal Duration. And that is why the present, the past, and the future have validity only in this world of relativity. They cease to be valid when we transcend that which pertains to the world of changing phenomena.

 

[Frankelmick]

Malka,

You said, "I've had a wave of feeling that I'm sharing too much about Judaism on this forum."

Well, as far as I'm concerned, I'm sending you a big wave of feelings of gratitude. Please allow me to share some of my own Jewish experience on this forum.

I'm Jewish and I love the I Ching.

I had a conventional education in Hebrew classes and, for a short time, aged 14, I studied every Sunday morning at a Yeshivah (Rabbinical college).

But now, I'm not observant at all and I don't go to synagogue.

You said, "About reincarnation in the Torah - it is definiately there, and Judaism is clear there is reincarnaiton. It's all over the Kabbalah, the Talmud and the Torah."

Can we stay with the Torah for the moment. Where is reincarnation mentioned?

On Saturday mornings, I remember praying to G-d as "M'chayay ha maysim" (who revives the dead). Is this the kind of thing you mean?

One basic idea that I remember from Hebrew classes, is that the spirits of the dead are waiting for Moshiach (the Messiah) to come. Then they will be brought back to life. This always struck me as a very weird idea.

I also remember my teacher telling me that it's strictly forbidden under Jewish Law to contact the spirits of the dead. This made me think that the Rabbis knew that it was possible to contact the spirits of the dead.

Malka, please feel free to correct any misconceptions I may have. And if you do feel uncomfortable about sharing too much about Judaism, you can contact me off-list.

Best wishes,

Mick

 

[davidl]

With all this Jewish stuff being discussed I thought a good Jewish joke was in order.

Mrs. Cohen goes down to her travel agent to book her next holiday. Hello , Mrs. Cohen, says the travel agent , aren't you looking wonderful, what can I do for you. Well, she says instead of my usual summer trip to the holy land I would like you to organize for me to travel to the Himalayas to see Guru Raja. Guru Raja! the agent whispers in shock, but Mrs. Cohen, to see Guru Raja you must fly to Northern India, take a 5 week trek through Butan on horseback. You then must climb for 4 weeks along dangerous snow covered tracks with the assistance of sherpas. When you get to the top of the mountain that the Guru is living you must wait in freezing temperatures in a queue for up to 6 weeks. Finally when its your turn you dont even see the Guru who is hidden in a cave. You must give a large donation and only say 4 words to him and leave. Mrs. Cohen looked complacently at the agent. Book it! she said.
Anyway she flies to India, treks across Bhutan, climbs one of the highest mountains in the himalayas and waits in the queue for 5 weeks in freezing temperatures. Finally she gets to the mouth of the cave. A man shows her where to leave the donation and explains again , only four words. She gives the donation and places her hands on either side of the small dark cave and says " Hymie, come home already".

 

[dharma]

<CENTER>THROUGH THE LIGHT</CENTER>
Mellen-Thomas Benedict is an artist who survived a near-death experience in 1982.
www.treeofthegoldenlight.com

<CENTER>THE ROAD TO DEATH</CENTER>
In 1982 I died from terminal cancer. My condition was non-operable. I chose not to have chemotherapy. I was given six to eight months to live. Before this time, I had become increasingly despondent over the nuclear crisis, the ecology crisis, and so forth. I came to believe that nature had made a mistake - that we were probably a cancerous organism on the planet. And that is what eventually killed me. Before my death, I tried all sorts of alternative healing methods. None helped. So I determined that this was between me and God. I had never really considered God. Neither was I into any kind of spirituality, but my approaching death sent me on a quest for more information about spirituality and alternative healing. I read various religions and philosophies. They gave hope that there was something on the other side. I had no medical insurance, so my life savings went overnight on tests. Unwilling to drag my family into this, I determined to handle this myself. I ended up in hospice care and was blessed with an angel for my hospice caretaker, whom I will call "Anne." She stayed with me through all that was to follow. It lasted about eighteen months.

<CENTER>THE LIGHT OF GOD</CENTER>
I woke up about 4:30 am and I knew that this was it. I was going to die. I called a few friends and said good-bye. I woke up Anne and made her promise that my dead body would remain undisturbed for six hours, since I had read that all kinds of interesting things happen when you die. I went back to sleep.The next thing I remember, I was fully aware and standing up. Yet my body was lying in the bed. I seemed to be surrounded by darkness, yet I could see every room in the house, and the roof, and even under the house. A Light shone; I turned toward it, and was aware of its similarity to what others have described in near-death experiences. It was magnificent and tangible, alluring. I wanted to go towards that Light like I might want to go into my ideal mother's or father's arms. As I moved towards the Light, I knew that if I went into the Light, I would be dead. So I said/felt, "Please wait. I would like to talk to you before I go." The entire experience halted. I discovered that I was in control of the entire experience. My request was honoured. I had conversations with the Light. That's the best way I can describe it. The Light changed into different figures, like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, mandalas, archetypal images and signs. I asked in a kind of telepathy, "What is going on here?"

The information transmitted was that our beliefs shape the kind of feedback we receive: If you are a Buddhist or Catholic or Fundamentalist, you get a feedback loop of your own images. I became aware of a Higher Self matrix, a conduit to the Source. We all have a Higher Self, or an oversoul part of our being, a conduit. All Higher Selves are connected as one being, all humans are connected as one being. We are literally the same being. It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. It was like all the love you've every wanted, and it was the kind of love that cures, heals, regenerates.

I was ready to go at that time. I said "I am ready, take me." Then the Light turned into the most beautiful thing that I have ever seen: a mandala of human souls on this planet. I saw that we are the most beautiful creations - elegant, exotic . . .everything. I just cannot say enough about how it changed my opinion of human beings in an instant. I said/thought/felt, "Oh, God, I didn't realize." I was astonished to find that there was no evil in any soul. People may do terrible things out of ignorance and lack, but no soul is evil. What all people seek, what sustains them, is love, the Light told me. What distorts people is a lack of love.

The revelations went on and on. I asked, "Does this mean that humankind will be saved?" Like a trumpet blast with a shower of spiraling lights, the Light "spoke," saying, "You save, redeem and heal yourself. You always have and always will. You were created with the power to do so from before the beginning of the world." In that instant I realized that WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN SAVED; this is what the "Second Coming" is about. I thanked the Light of God with all my heart. The best thing I could come up with was: "Oh dear God, dear Universe, dear Great Self, I love my Life."

The Light seemed to breathe me in even more deeply, absorbing me. I entered into another realm more profound than the last, and was aware of an enormous stream of Light, vast and full, deep. I asked what it was. The Light answered, "This is the RIVER OF LIFE. Drink of this manna water to your heart's content." I drank deeply, in ecstasy.

<CENTER>THE VOID OF NOTHINGNESS</CENTER>
Suddenly I seemed to be rocketing away from the planet on this stream of Life. I saw the earth fly away. The solar system, whizzed by and disappeared. I flew through the center of the galaxy, absorbing more knowledge as I went. I learned that this galaxy, and all of the Universe, is bursting with many different varieties of life. I saw many worlds. We are not alone in this Universe. It seemed as if all the creations in the Universe soared past me and vanished in a speck of Light. Almost immediately, a second Light appeared.

As I passed into the second Light, I could perceive forever, beyond Infinity. I was in the Void, pre-Creation, the beginning of time, the first Word or vibration. I rested in the Eye of Creation and it seemed that I touched the Face of God. It was not a religious feeling. I was simply at One with Absolute Life and Consciousness. It would take me years to assimilate the Void experience. It was less than nothing yet greater than anything. Creation is God exploring God's Self through every way imaginable. Through every piece of hair on your head, through every leaf on every tree, through every atom, God is exploring God's Self. I saw everything as the Self of all. God is here. That's what it is all about. Everything is made of light; everything is alive.

<CENTER>THE LIGHT OF LOVE</CENTER>
I rode the stream directly into the center of the Light. I felt embraced by the Light as it took me in with its breath again. And the truth was obvious that there is no death; that nothing is born and nothing dies; that we are immortal beings, part of a natural living system that recycles itself endlessly. I was never told that I had to come back. I just knew that I would. It was only natural, from what I had seen.

As I began my return to the life cycle, it never crossed my mind, nor was I told, that I would return to the same body. It did not matter. I had complete trust in the Light and the Life process. As the stream merged with the great Light, I asked never to forget the revelations and the feelings of what I had learned on the other side. I thought of myself as a human again and I was happy to be that. From what I have seen, I would be happy to be an atom in this universe. An atom. So to be the human part of God ... this is the most fantastic blessing. It is a blessing beyond our wildest estimation of what blessing can be. For each and every one of us to be the human part of this experience is awesome, and magnificent. Each and every one of us, no matter where we are, screwed up or not, is a blessing to the planet, right where we are. So I went through the reincarnation process expecting to be a baby somewhere. But I reincarnated back into this body. I was so surprised when I opened my eyes, to be back in this body, back in my room with someone looking over me, crying her eyes out. It was "Anne," my hospice caretaker. She had found me dead thirty minutes before.

We do not know how long I was dead, only that she found me thirty minutes before. She had honoured my wish to have my newly-dead body left alone. She can verify that I really was dead. It was not a near-death experience. I believe I probably experienced death itself for at least an hour and a half. When I awakened and saw the light outside. Confused, I tried to get up to go to it, but I fell out of the bed. She heard a loud "clunk", ran in and found me on the floor.

When I recovered, I was surprised and awed about what had happened, I had no memory at first of the experience. I kept slipping out of this world and kept asking, "Am I alive?" This world seemed more like a dream than that one. Within three days, I was feeling normal again, clearer, yet different than ever before. My memories of the journey came back later. But from my return I could find nothing wrong with any human being I had ever seen. Previous to my death I was judgmental, believing that people were really screwed up. Everyone but me. About three months later a friend said I should get tested for the cancer, so I got the scans and so forth. I felt healthy. I still remember the doctor at the clinic looking at the "before" and "after" scans. He said, "I can find no sign of cancer now." "A miracle?" I asked. "No," he answered. These things happen . . . spontaneous remission." He seemed unimpressed. But I was impressed, and knew it was a miracle.

<CENTER>LESSONS LEARNED</CENTER>
The Great Mystery of life has little to do with intelligence. The universe is not an intellectual process. The intellect is helpful; but our hearts are the wiser part of ourselves. Since my return I have experienced the Light spontaneously, and I have learned how to get to that space almost any time in my meditation. You can also do this. You do not have to die first. You are wired for it already. The body is the most magnificent Light being there is. The body is a universe of incredible Light. Spirit is not pushing us to dissolve this body. We don't need to commune with God; God is communing with us in every moment.

I asked God: "What is the best religion on the planet? Which one is right?" God said with great love: "I don't care." What an incredible grace. It does not matter what religion we are. Religions come and they go, they change. Buddhism has not been here forever, Catholicism has not been here forever, and they are all about to become more enlightened. More light is coming into all systems now. Many will resist and fight about it, one religion against the next, believing that only they are right. When Godhead said, "I don't care," I understood that it is for us to care about, because we are the caring beings. The Source does not care if you are Protestant, Buddhist, or Jew. Each is a reflection, a facet of the whole. I wish that all religions would realize it and let each other be. It is not the end of separate religions, but live and let live. Each has a different view. And it all adds up to the big picture.

I went over to the other side with a lot of fears about toxic waste, nuclear missiles, the population explosion, the rain forest. I came back loving every single problem. I love nuclear waste. I love the mushroom cloud; this is the holiest mandala that we have manifested to date, as an archetype. More than any religion or philosophy on earth, that terrible, wonderful cloud brought us together all of a sudden, to a new level of consciousness.

Knowing that maybe we can blow up the planet fifty times, or 500 times, we finally realize that maybe we are all here together now. For a period they had to keep setting off more bombs to get it in to us.Then we started saying, "we do not need this any more." Now we are actually in a safer world than we have ever been in, and it is going to get safer. So I came back loving toxic waste, because it brought us together. These things are so big. Clearing of the rain forest will slow down, and in fifty years there will be more trees on the planet than in a long time. If you are into ecology, go for it; you are that part of the system that is becoming aware. Go for it with all your might, but do not be depressed or disheartened. Earth is in the process of domesticating itself and we are cells on that Body.

Population increase is getting very close to the optimal range of energy to cause a shift in consciousness. That shift in consciousness will change politics, money, energy. What happens when we dream? We are multi-dimensional beings. We can access that through lucid dreaming. In fact, this universe is God's dream. One of the things that I saw is that we humans are a speck on a planet that is a speck in a galaxy that is a speck. Those are giant systems out there, and we are in sort of an average system. But human beings are already legendary throughout the cosmos of consciousness.

The little bitty human being of Earth/Gaia is legendary. One of the things that we are legendary for is dreaming. We are legendary dreamers. In fact, the whole cosmos has been looking for the meaning of life, the meaning of it all. And it was the little dreamer who came up with the best answer ever. We dreamed it up. So dreams are important. After dying and coming back, I really respect life and death. In our DNA experiments we may have opened the door to a great secret. Soon we will be able to live as long as we want to live in this body. After living 150 years or so, there will be an intuitive soul sense that you will want to change channels. Living forever in one body is not as creative as reincarnation, as transferring energy in this fantastic vortex of energy that we are in. We are actually going to see the wisdom of life and death, and enjoy it. As it is now, we have already been alive forever.

<CENTER>Here's to life! Here's to death! Here's to it all!</CENTER>

 

[gene]

Hi Dharma

I suppose I will not have much choice in being reincarnated. I am not fully integrated yet, and the way the world is anymore, the thought of reincarnation scares me to death. I am doing everything I can to progress as much spiritually in this lifetime, and maybe, just maybe, before my calling card comes, I will have progressed just enough that I don't have to come back. I know what you are thinking, "dream on," ha ha. I have a strong Pisces element in my chart too, ruled by neptune, Mars and Mercury in Pisces, so yes, I am a dreamer. Gets me into trouble now and then for not paying attention.

Gene

 

[gene]

Hi Malka

I didn't realize this was that old Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph thread. we talked about the reincarnation until Joseph finally forgave his brothers...It may not be mainstream Jewish thought, but it is valid nontheless, and that was brought up to me by Jews. I am not so sure there truly is a mainstream Jewish thought. There is an old saying, "Three Jews, four opinions." Aside from all of that, however, there is a depth and richness to the Torah that goes beyond any one approach or interpretation.

Gene

 

[hilary]

Thank you, Dharma, that's a wonderful story.

>I asked God: "What is the best religion on the
>planet? Which one is right?" God said with
>great love: "I don't care."

Brilliant! (And something I can imagine God says about a great many things that exercise us.)

I can't imagine not wanting to reincarnate here -just pure glorious greed on my part. But I'm not yet in love with mushroom clouds: that's something special, to overcome fear to that extent.

Thanks again.

 

[dharma]

I loved the story myself (you're welcome!) I am glad that it was as inspirational to others here as it was for me.

I like the idea of reincarnation myself - the idea that no matter how many times I stumble, I will have another chance to redeem mySelf and/or try again, is infinitely more blissful than the alternatives. However, I often feel ready to move on to other levels where the story and rules are already different or can be changed more easily. Mushroom clouds and toxic waste are not my cup-o-tea either, though I do understand that the importance of loving them lies not in their destructiveness but in that they represent a stage of our collective growth. I'm not a very nostalgic person in that sense - I tend to look forward rather than back. So I'm all for reincarnation - I would just like to have more control of the program that's running on the holodeck

(StarTrek fans will know what this is).

<CENTER>In Lak'ech
<FONT SIZE="-1">(Mayan code of honor)
"I am Another Yourself"</FONT></CENTER>

 

[gene]

Hi Hilary

Actually, mushroom clouds are the least of my worries. I love the beauty of this planet, and if born into the right family with the right karma, I wouldn't mind it at all. I do know there are forces on this planet dedicated to closing all doors to spiritual awareness, if they win, no one will ever again escape the wheel of karma. My biggest hope is that the pole shift will clear the planet of much of its negative karma, those who plan ultimate and complete control of the planet will be wiped out with the pole shift, and those who incarnate can complete their spiritual path. I only know I have not completed it. And this may be the last opportunity. If righteousness prevails, this will indeed be a beautiful and wonderful planet to reincarnate to. In that vein, I do not think it is negative thinking to expect a pole shift, it is very, very positive.

Gene

 

[louise]

Amazing, Hilary writes "I can't imagine not wanting to reincarnate here" . I feel totally the opposite, I never, never want to come back and I'm pretty sure I didn't want to come in the first place - it was much better where I was, though I can't remember it. Funny isn't it how differently people feel about being on this planet. Imagine a place without cars, a place where you don't have to keep producing stuff called money just to keep this barrel of flesh going. Why anyone would want to come back here is beyond me totally....I only express this because, as i say, its weird how differently people feel about their visit here..

 

[dharma]

Louise,
life's value is in the meaning we give it and from what you said it seems that perhaps life's feeling somewhat bland and meaningless to you more often than not. only you can change that by the way you perceive it. here's the beginnings of and the link to an article that I found particularly insightful and may help cast a glimmer of light and meaning to your own life. with love... D

Supramental Descent/A Planetary Hope
Will we destroy ourselves in ecological catastrophe, human misery, and war, or will we be transformed in a great quantum leap of consciousness? This, I believe, is the ultimate question before humanity today...

http://mayanmajix.com/art113.html

<CENTER>In Lak'ech
<FONT SIZE="-1">(Mayan code of honor)
"I am Another Yourself"</FONT></CENTER>

 

[gene]

Hi Dharma

Yes, "To be or not to be, that is the question."

Gene

 

[louise]

I can't see anything wrong with not wishing to reincarnate into this particular realm. Each soul has its own agenda. As to be or not to be - there is no choice not to be - being cannot be extinguished. Some souls are less happy about their incarnation into the physical than others.
Why should a wish to reincarnate be more acceptable than the wish not to.

 

[gene]

Louise

I have to agree with you. Just don't know that I have any choice in coming back. But if I have to go through similar experiences in my next life, I am going to fight and kick like a bronco.

Gene

 

[hilary]

I can't see anything 'wrong' (?!) with not wishing to reincarnate here, either. It's just that, personally, I like realms with leafy sea dragons in. Amongst other creatures.

 

[dharma]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Why should a wish to reincarnate be more acceptable than the wish not to.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> It isn't. There's no right or wrong, just choice. Each has it's merits, each has the power to lead us somewhere. But having stood on both sides of the fence, and having experienced the difference, I'd have to say that one side is infinitely more joyful, enthusiastic and exciting than the other. To each his own... and, vivre la difference!

<CENTER>In Lak'ech
<FONT SIZE="-1">(Mayan code of honor)
"I am Another Yourself"</FONT></CENTER>